Berserk > Speculation Nation

How much do we know about the World of Ideas?

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Archer1215:
I know the concept is derived from Plato's theory of forms, but what role does it play in relation to the other two worlds (the Physical World and the Astral World)? Schierke refers to it as "the soul of the origin of all existence." Does this mean that all things/concepts/objects in the Physical and Astral Worlds are just derived from their original forms in the World of Ideas? Does the Idea of Evil reside in the Abyss or the World of Ideas, or do the two overlap? Is it possible the World of Ideas will tie into the God Hand's plan in some way, such as merging the World of Ideas with Fantasia (for example)?

Aazealh:
You ask how much do we know about the World of Ideas, and the answer is: not much at all.
There's this one passing reference to it in volume 24 and that's about it. The rest is conjecture or deduction, mostly informed by episode 83 (which isn't canon).


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 04:38:40 PM ---I know the concept is derived from Plato's theory of forms
--- End quote ---

I like its traditional name better: theory of Ideas. :slan:


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 04:38:40 PM ---Schierke refers to it as "the soul of the origin of all existence."
--- End quote ---

This is a bad translation. What she calls it is "the spirit that is the source of existence". Because it's in Japanese, there can be variations, for example "spirit" and "soul" are both correct, and "source" and "origin" are also both appropriate. Existence could also be replaced by "beings". However Miura does go out of his way to use words that relate to water for these things, hence why "source" is preferable here. Of note is that in the name "Idea of Evil", the kanji for "Idea" has the same meaning: source/origin. And since we're at it, I can't help but remind those who don't know that "idea" in this context is a Greek word and pronounced the Greek way: ee-deh-ah.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 04:38:40 PM ---Does this mean that all things/concepts/objects in the Physical and Astral Worlds are just derived from their original forms in the World of Ideas?
--- End quote ---

Something like that. There are no doubt variations compared to Plato's theory, and possibly major ones. What we do know is that there is a great ocean of souls that lies at the very bottom of the Astral World. That ocean is divided according to karma. The part with the bad karma is what gave birth to the Idea of Evil, and it's where the Abyss is located.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 04:38:40 PM ---Does the Idea of Evil reside in the Abyss or the World of Ideas, or do the two overlap?
--- End quote ---

The Idea of Evil resides in the Abyss. And I think it's safe to say that the Idea of Evil is part of the World of Ideas. However, how that works is currently unknown and tricky to get into. Is the great ocean of souls part of the World of Ideas? Is it its surface or a gateway to it? Or is it the World of Ideas itself in its entirety? We don't know. We also don't know really the details of how the World of Ideas relates to the Astral and Corporeal worlds.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 04:38:40 PM ---Is it possible the World of Ideas will tie into the God Hand's plan in some way?
--- End quote ---

I think it's above their pay grade. The one pulling the strings is the Idea of Evil.

Archer1215:
Wow, thanks for answering so quickly. I'm going to look at each of your responses and respond based off of the information you give me. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding things or overreaching.



--- Quote from: Aazealh on February 11, 2018, 06:35:20 PM ---This is a bad translation. What she calls it is "the spirit that is the source of existence". Because it's in Japanese, there can be variations, for example "spirit" and "soul" are both correct, and "source" and "origin" are also both appropriate. Existence could also be replaced by "beings". However Miura does go out of his way to use words that relate to water for these things, hence why "source" is preferable here. Of note is that in the name "Idea of Evil", the kanji for "Idea" has the same meaning: source/origin. And since we're at it, I can't help but remind those who don't know that "idea" in this context is a Greek word and pronounced the Greek way: ee-deh-ah.

--- End quote ---


That's very interesting to know. If I'm understanding Plato's theory correctly, then these "forms" or "ideas are the "perfect" representation of their more flawed or imperfect counterparts, correct? If that is the case, then does that mean the Idea of Evil is the source of a "perfect" evil? And since humans were the ones who created the Idea of Evil to grant "meaning to their suffering, then are these "ideas" created to be something beyond the thoughts/imaginations of humans? As in, are these "perfect ideas" beyond the limitations of human conception, and so created to be perfect based off of humanity's flawed perception of the idea? I know we don't have enough information about the World of Ideas to really speculate too far along these lines, but am I understanding the theory of ideas correctly?



--- Quote from: Aazealh on February 11, 2018, 06:35:20 PM ---The Idea of Evil resides in the Abyss. And I think it's safe to say that the Idea of Evil is part of the World of Ideas. However, how that works is currently unknown and tricky to get into. Is the great ocean of souls part of the World of Ideas? Is it its surface or a gateway to it? Or is it the World of Ideas itself in its entirety? We don't know. We also don't know really the details of how the World of Ideas relates to the Astral and Corporeal worlds.

--- End quote ---


Yeah, my line of thinking was that the Abyss where the Idea of Evil resides could have been an "overlapping" between the Astral World and World of Ideas, similar to how the Physical and Astral Worlds can overlap with the Interstice and Road of Elves. But maybe I'm looking at the World of Ideas' existence all wrong. Magic-users know of its existence, but it's unknown if they are able to interact with it in any way, and if so what limitations they have in that regard. Personally, I find it unlikely that magic-users can interact with it in the same way they can the Astral World, if only because we haven't gotten any further elaboration on it since its initial passing mention. But then the question arises of how they even know about its existence in the first place. Maybe it isn't another "tangible world" on the same level as the other two parts of Berserk's macro-cosmic trinity, but is instead only represented by these "ideas" which it concerns. But all we can do is speculate at this point. I hope we receive more elaboration on it in the future.



--- Quote from: Aazealh on February 11, 2018, 06:35:20 PM ---I think it's above their pay grade. The one pulling the strings is the Idea of Evil.

--- End quote ---


When you say it's above their pay grade, do you mean that they aren't significant enough to have any sort of ability to interact with the World of Ideas? And when you say the Idea of Evil is the one who is pulling the strings, do you mean to say that only it would be capable of accomplishing anything involving the World of Ideas? If so, how would you imagine that happening? My understanding of the Idea of Evil is that its manipulation of causality was only extended to creating the lineages that would produce in every human the necessary qualities to play a part in its grand design, as well as bestowing "evil power" upon the Apostles and God Hand. Aren't the God Hand the ones who are physically executing its will, as well as the will of humanity's subconscious collective desire?

For a followup question, I was wondering if you believe the World of Ideas will be elaborated upon or play a part in the story in the future, and if so do you have any predictions or speculations about what that part will be? I have heard some speculate that the God Hand would want to further transform the world by "merging" the World of Ideas with Fantasia. Maybe this would be the "perfect world" that the Egg Apostle desired to create by birthing Griffith's new vessel. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Aazealh:

--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---Wow, thanks for answering so quickly.
--- End quote ---

No problem!


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---That's very interesting to know. If I'm understanding Plato's theory correctly, then these "forms" or "ideas are the "perfect" representation of their more flawed or imperfect counterparts, correct? If that is the case, then does that mean the Idea of Evil is the source of a "perfect" evil?
--- End quote ---

Well like I said in my first reply, it's not like Plato's theory actually applies here. It's an inspiration, but there are significant differences. I really don't think you'll get anywhere by trying to fit it to Berserk. In this case, from what we know of the Idea of Evil, it's not a "perfect form" of evil, but the conscious embodiment of the dark side of humanity's common consciousness. Completely different concept, despite what the name implies.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---Yeah, my line of thinking was that the Abyss where the Idea of Evil resides could have been an "overlapping" between the Astral World and World of Ideas, similar to how the Physical and Astral Worlds can overlap with the Interstice and Road of Elves.
--- End quote ---

The Interstice is where the two worlds overlap. The road of elves is more like a temporary gateway to the shallow layers of the Astral World. Either way, both are possible for the World of Ideas, but we just don't know whether that's the case.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---Magic-users know of its existence, but it's unknown if they are able to interact with it in any way, and if so what limitations they have in that regard.
--- End quote ---

From what Flora says in volume 24, there is a depth beyond which magic users cannot return from the Astral World. That means they cannot interact with the World of Ideas, since it lies deeper than anything else.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---But then the question arises of how they even know about its existence in the first place.
--- End quote ---

Maybe the same way physicists know about events that occurred billions of years ago, millions of light-years away. :slan:


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---When you say it's above their pay grade, do you mean that they aren't significant enough to have any sort of ability to interact with the World of Ideas? And when you say the Idea of Evil is the one who is pulling the strings, do you mean to say that only it would be capable of accomplishing anything involving the World of Ideas?
--- End quote ---

I mean that the members of the God Hand were chosen and empowered by the Idea of Evil, and that they serve its designs through the accomplishment of their own desires. And so indeed, I don't think it's accurate to portray them as having a plan of their own involving the World of Ideas as opposed to them executing such a plan as laid out by their master, the Idea of Evil.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---Aren't the God Hand the ones who are physically executing its will
--- End quote ---

They are its servants, although aside from Femto, they didn't have a physical form last time we saw them. But the apostles do.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---For a followup question, I was wondering if you believe the World of Ideas will be elaborated upon or play a part in the story in the future, and if so do you have any predictions or speculations about what that part will be?
--- End quote ---

Hard to say. I think the World of Ideas will come up again at some point in the story. I don't think it's going to play a huge part however, nor that we will learn everything there is to know about it.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---I have heard some speculate that the God Hand would want to further transform the world by "merging" the World of Ideas with Fantasia. Maybe this would be the "perfect world" that the Egg Apostle desired to create by birthing Griffith's new vessel. Do you have any thoughts on that?
--- End quote ---

I don't think the God Hand wants to merge Fantasia with the World of Ideas, and the Beherit Apostle referred to his own little world, so I don't think that connection makes sense.

Walter:

--- Quote ---How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
--- End quote ---

Virtually nothing :idea:

I think the World of Ideas was introduced as an avenue for Miura to establish a creation story for the world of Berserk, if he ever wanted to pursue that. Of course, he could also never address it again, and have its description as the origin of existence be all that we get.


--- Quote from: Archer1215 on February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM ---I have heard some speculate that the God Hand would want to further transform the world by "merging" the World of Ideas with Fantasia. Maybe this would be the "perfect world" that the Egg Apostle desired to create by birthing Griffith's new vessel. Do you have any thoughts on that?

--- End quote ---

The Egg talks pretty clearly about how the incarnation of Femto will be the bridge between the old world and the new. And we already know what that new world is. Creating Fantasia was already the series' biggest spectacle. I don't see Miura doing that all over again, particularly for something where the stakes are unclear and unexplored.

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