Author Topic: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?  (Read 998 times)

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Offline Archer1215

How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« on: February 11, 2018, 04:38:40 PM »
I know the concept is derived from Plato's theory of forms, but what role does it play in relation to the other two worlds (the Physical World and the Astral World)? Schierke refers to it as "the soul of the origin of all existence." Does this mean that all things/concepts/objects in the Physical and Astral Worlds are just derived from their original forms in the World of Ideas? Does the Idea of Evil reside in the Abyss or the World of Ideas, or do the two overlap? Is it possible the World of Ideas will tie into the God Hand's plan in some way, such as merging the World of Ideas with Fantasia (for example)?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 06:00:15 PM by Archer1215 »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 06:35:20 PM »
You ask how much do we know about the World of Ideas, and the answer is: not much at all.
There's this one passing reference to it in volume 24 and that's about it. The rest is conjecture or deduction, mostly informed by episode 83 (which isn't canon).

I know the concept is derived from Plato's theory of forms

I like its traditional name better: theory of Ideas. :slan:

Schierke refers to it as "the soul of the origin of all existence."

This is a bad translation. What she calls it is "the spirit that is the source of existence". Because it's in Japanese, there can be variations, for example "spirit" and "soul" are both correct, and "source" and "origin" are also both appropriate. Existence could also be replaced by "beings". However Miura does go out of his way to use words that relate to water for these things, hence why "source" is preferable here. Of note is that in the name "Idea of Evil", the kanji for "Idea" has the same meaning: source/origin. And since we're at it, I can't help but remind those who don't know that "idea" in this context is a Greek word and pronounced the Greek way: ee-deh-ah.

Does this mean that all things/concepts/objects in the Physical and Astral Worlds are just derived from their original forms in the World of Ideas?

Something like that. There are no doubt variations compared to Plato's theory, and possibly major ones. What we do know is that there is a great ocean of souls that lies at the very bottom of the Astral World. That ocean is divided according to karma. The part with the bad karma is what gave birth to the Idea of Evil, and it's where the Abyss is located.

Does the Idea of Evil reside in the Abyss or the World of Ideas, or do the two overlap?

The Idea of Evil resides in the Abyss. And I think it's safe to say that the Idea of Evil is part of the World of Ideas. However, how that works is currently unknown and tricky to get into. Is the great ocean of souls part of the World of Ideas? Is it its surface or a gateway to it? Or is it the World of Ideas itself in its entirety? We don't know. We also don't know really the details of how the World of Ideas relates to the Astral and Corporeal worlds.

Is it possible the World of Ideas will tie into the God Hand's plan in some way?

I think it's above their pay grade. The one pulling the strings is the Idea of Evil.

Offline Archer1215

Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 07:28:49 PM »
Wow, thanks for answering so quickly. I'm going to look at each of your responses and respond based off of the information you give me. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding things or overreaching.


This is a bad translation. What she calls it is "the spirit that is the source of existence". Because it's in Japanese, there can be variations, for example "spirit" and "soul" are both correct, and "source" and "origin" are also both appropriate. Existence could also be replaced by "beings". However Miura does go out of his way to use words that relate to water for these things, hence why "source" is preferable here. Of note is that in the name "Idea of Evil", the kanji for "Idea" has the same meaning: source/origin. And since we're at it, I can't help but remind those who don't know that "idea" in this context is a Greek word and pronounced the Greek way: ee-deh-ah.


That's very interesting to know. If I'm understanding Plato's theory correctly, then these "forms" or "ideas are the "perfect" representation of their more flawed or imperfect counterparts, correct? If that is the case, then does that mean the Idea of Evil is the source of a "perfect" evil? And since humans were the ones who created the Idea of Evil to grant "meaning to their suffering, then are these "ideas" created to be something beyond the thoughts/imaginations of humans? As in, are these "perfect ideas" beyond the limitations of human conception, and so created to be perfect based off of humanity's flawed perception of the idea? I know we don't have enough information about the World of Ideas to really speculate too far along these lines, but am I understanding the theory of ideas correctly?


The Idea of Evil resides in the Abyss. And I think it's safe to say that the Idea of Evil is part of the World of Ideas. However, how that works is currently unknown and tricky to get into. Is the great ocean of souls part of the World of Ideas? Is it its surface or a gateway to it? Or is it the World of Ideas itself in its entirety? We don't know. We also don't know really the details of how the World of Ideas relates to the Astral and Corporeal worlds.


Yeah, my line of thinking was that the Abyss where the Idea of Evil resides could have been an "overlapping" between the Astral World and World of Ideas, similar to how the Physical and Astral Worlds can overlap with the Interstice and Road of Elves. But maybe I'm looking at the World of Ideas' existence all wrong. Magic-users know of its existence, but it's unknown if they are able to interact with it in any way, and if so what limitations they have in that regard. Personally, I find it unlikely that magic-users can interact with it in the same way they can the Astral World, if only because we haven't gotten any further elaboration on it since its initial passing mention. But then the question arises of how they even know about its existence in the first place. Maybe it isn't another "tangible world" on the same level as the other two parts of Berserk's macro-cosmic trinity, but is instead only represented by these "ideas" which it concerns. But all we can do is speculate at this point. I hope we receive more elaboration on it in the future.


I think it's above their pay grade. The one pulling the strings is the Idea of Evil.


When you say it's above their pay grade, do you mean that they aren't significant enough to have any sort of ability to interact with the World of Ideas? And when you say the Idea of Evil is the one who is pulling the strings, do you mean to say that only it would be capable of accomplishing anything involving the World of Ideas? If so, how would you imagine that happening? My understanding of the Idea of Evil is that its manipulation of causality was only extended to creating the lineages that would produce in every human the necessary qualities to play a part in its grand design, as well as bestowing "evil power" upon the Apostles and God Hand. Aren't the God Hand the ones who are physically executing its will, as well as the will of humanity's subconscious collective desire?

For a followup question, I was wondering if you believe the World of Ideas will be elaborated upon or play a part in the story in the future, and if so do you have any predictions or speculations about what that part will be? I have heard some speculate that the God Hand would want to further transform the world by "merging" the World of Ideas with Fantasia. Maybe this would be the "perfect world" that the Egg Apostle desired to create by birthing Griffith's new vessel. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 08:16:07 PM »
Wow, thanks for answering so quickly.

No problem!

That's very interesting to know. If I'm understanding Plato's theory correctly, then these "forms" or "ideas are the "perfect" representation of their more flawed or imperfect counterparts, correct? If that is the case, then does that mean the Idea of Evil is the source of a "perfect" evil?

Well like I said in my first reply, it's not like Plato's theory actually applies here. It's an inspiration, but there are significant differences. I really don't think you'll get anywhere by trying to fit it to Berserk. In this case, from what we know of the Idea of Evil, it's not a "perfect form" of evil, but the conscious embodiment of the dark side of humanity's common consciousness. Completely different concept, despite what the name implies.

Yeah, my line of thinking was that the Abyss where the Idea of Evil resides could have been an "overlapping" between the Astral World and World of Ideas, similar to how the Physical and Astral Worlds can overlap with the Interstice and Road of Elves.

The Interstice is where the two worlds overlap. The road of elves is more like a temporary gateway to the shallow layers of the Astral World. Either way, both are possible for the World of Ideas, but we just don't know whether that's the case.

Magic-users know of its existence, but it's unknown if they are able to interact with it in any way, and if so what limitations they have in that regard.

From what Flora says in volume 24, there is a depth beyond which magic users cannot return from the Astral World. That means they cannot interact with the World of Ideas, since it lies deeper than anything else.

But then the question arises of how they even know about its existence in the first place.

Maybe the same way physicists know about events that occurred billions of years ago, millions of light-years away. :slan:

When you say it's above their pay grade, do you mean that they aren't significant enough to have any sort of ability to interact with the World of Ideas? And when you say the Idea of Evil is the one who is pulling the strings, do you mean to say that only it would be capable of accomplishing anything involving the World of Ideas?

I mean that the members of the God Hand were chosen and empowered by the Idea of Evil, and that they serve its designs through the accomplishment of their own desires. And so indeed, I don't think it's accurate to portray them as having a plan of their own involving the World of Ideas as opposed to them executing such a plan as laid out by their master, the Idea of Evil.

Aren't the God Hand the ones who are physically executing its will

They are its servants, although aside from Femto, they didn't have a physical form last time we saw them. But the apostles do.

For a followup question, I was wondering if you believe the World of Ideas will be elaborated upon or play a part in the story in the future, and if so do you have any predictions or speculations about what that part will be?

Hard to say. I think the World of Ideas will come up again at some point in the story. I don't think it's going to play a huge part however, nor that we will learn everything there is to know about it.

I have heard some speculate that the God Hand would want to further transform the world by "merging" the World of Ideas with Fantasia. Maybe this would be the "perfect world" that the Egg Apostle desired to create by birthing Griffith's new vessel. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I don't think the God Hand wants to merge Fantasia with the World of Ideas, and the Beherit Apostle referred to his own little world, so I don't think that connection makes sense.

Offline Walter

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Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 08:26:49 PM »
Quote
How much do we know about the World of Ideas?

Virtually nothing :idea:

I think the World of Ideas was introduced as an avenue for Miura to establish a creation story for the world of Berserk, if he ever wanted to pursue that. Of course, he could also never address it again, and have its description as the origin of existence be all that we get.

I have heard some speculate that the God Hand would want to further transform the world by "merging" the World of Ideas with Fantasia. Maybe this would be the "perfect world" that the Egg Apostle desired to create by birthing Griffith's new vessel. Do you have any thoughts on that?

The Egg talks pretty clearly about how the incarnation of Femto will be the bridge between the old world and the new. And we already know what that new world is. Creating Fantasia was already the series' biggest spectacle. I don't see Miura doing that all over again, particularly for something where the stakes are unclear and unexplored.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Archer1215

Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2018, 08:49:10 PM »
The Egg talks pretty clearly about how the incarnation of Femto will be the bridge between the old world and the new. And we already know what that new world is. Creating Fantasia was already the series' biggest spectacle. I don't see Miura doing that all over again, particularly for something where the stakes are unclear and unexplored.

As cool as that would be.  :sad: I think he could definitely do it, but it would certainly be a tall order. At the same time, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to capture a change on the world of that scale. We don't even know what sort of effect that would have.

So do you personally want Miura to elaborate upon the World of Ideas? I've been a bit obsessed with the concept and how it pertains to the larger Berserk universe lately.

Offline Walter

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Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2018, 08:59:01 PM »
As cool as that would be.  :sad: I think he could definitely do it, but it would certainly be a tall order. At the same time, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to capture a change on the world of that scale. We don't even know what sort of effect that would have.

It wouldn't make a lot of sense. The implications of the Astral loosed on the Physical always made sense: Enoch was the perfect example. But the implications of a world of formless concepts merging with corporeal space...? Uh, it'd be hard to represent, that's for sure. I think the odds on that one are nil, honestly.

Quote
So do you personally want Miura to elaborate upon the World of Ideas?

You may as well ask: Do I think Miura will lay out how the Berserk world was created. And I really don't expect (or really need) that. At least, not where we are now with the series.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline SleepersWake

Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 05:56:08 AM »
I'm pretty sure I've seen someone mention it before, but I'm not sure where, and it seems pretty relevant here: in episode 307, the narrator talks about the World Spiral Tree, and in Puella's translations on the forum (really a wonderful resource!), it says "It is like an origin rooted deeply in mankind, the 'tree' itself." Her footnote on the word "origin" says this: "The furigana for this word says 'origin' in English, but the kanji can mean 'archetype' or 'model'". I believe this is the same language used for the Idea of Evil, but I basically know zero Japanese, so please correct me if I got that wrong [EDIT: I was totally wrong]. Either way, it seems like a pretty clear reference to the theory of forms, and by association, the World of Ideas.

With that said, I'm not sure if we really learn anything about the World of Ideas from this. We already had an explanation as to what the Tree really is (the whole Road of Dragons thing) and that explanation doesn't incorporate the World of Ideas explicitly. Regardless, if you're looking for hints, that has to be one of the biggest ones we get.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 07:29:30 AM by SleepersWake »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 07:27:32 AM »
I believe this is the same language used for the Idea of Evil, but I basically know zero Japanese, so please correct me if I got that wrong.

It's a completely different word.

Either way, it seems like a pretty clear reference to the theory of forms, and by association, the World of Ideas.

It is definitely a reference to the Platonic concept of Ideas, however it doesn't tell us anything about the World of Ideas itself.

Offline SleepersWake

Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 07:59:31 AM »
It's a completely different word.
Hahaha duly noted, and duly edited. That's what I get for speaking about something I don't understand. I had a vague memory that I had heard something to this effect on the podcast but I realize now that I was totally muddled in my memory of it. I must have confused the "source of existence" stuff you mentioned upthread and in the water metaphors discussion with the fact that some other translations of episode 307 say "the idea of 'tree'" in order to get accross the concept of being an archetype. I probably could have avoided this confusion if I had been paying better attention when you pointed out the Greek usage of the word "Idea" in the case of IoE, and how it's different from English. Totally my bad.

EDIT: Oh and regarding this
however it doesn't tell us anything about the World of Ideas itself.
I'm on the same page as you there:
With that said, I'm not sure if we really learn anything about the World of Ideas from this.


Offline Aazealh

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Re: How much do we know about the World of Ideas?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2018, 10:33:13 AM »
Hahaha duly noted, and duly edited. That's what I get for speaking about something I don't understand. I had a vague memory that I had heard something to this effect on the podcast but I realize now that I was totally muddled in my memory of it. I must have confused the "source of existence" stuff you mentioned upthread and in the water metaphors discussion with the fact that some other translations of episode 307 say "the idea of 'tree'" in order to get accross the concept of being an archetype. I probably could have avoided this confusion if I had been paying better attention when you pointed out the Greek usage of the word "Idea" in the case of IoE, and how it's different from English. Totally my bad.

No problem, it just shows how important it is to actually have accurate translations we can rely on.