Who Void and Slann were before GodHand

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
In reading some of the most recent chapters from Berserk and thinking about the 'four forces' ( spirits) of earth, water, air and fire...and speculating with a friend of mine from this board...I wondered if it was possible that Void could have been a warlock or a sorcerer of some kind, some one who had powers to 'call down the four angels' that destroyed King Gaiseric's empire. Only someone who has powers of magic could conjure the four 'angels' or spirits.

As I said before, when Mozgus was talking to Farnese and Serpico after his 'thousand head knocks' atonement session, he spoke of a 'wise/holy man' who 'called upon the four angels' who then descended and destroyed the empire. I postulate that Void was a sorcerer or practionioner of magic who was imprisoned and tortured by Gaiseric because he was trying to 'get rid of' or 'overthrow' him.

Slann is referred to as ' prostitute of intestines' in a translation given to me by Mizar. Perhaps what it means is "prostitute from the bowels of the earth' ( bowels=intestines/guts) or 'prostitute from hell.' Slann might have either really been one and somehow connected with Void. Perhaps she was his mistress. Or, King Gaiseric may have spurned her as a lover and she turned against him.

LG
 

Majin_Tenshi

The can opener went bye-bye...
That is a rather good interesting theory. But I think theres a rather substantial hole in it.

Godhand sacrifices are big and noticible, one would assume. The common assumption is that Void's sacrifice was Gaseric's kingdom. I don't think Idea/godhand would use elemental spirits to sacrifice anything though. Its mostly that I've gotten the impression that the elements try to counterbalance idea. (which could have an interesting meaning.)
 
I wonder if God Hands existed at the beginning of time. Sound stupid, yes, but if they were born at a specific point of time, then they're not so god-like afterall. There must be something bigger, badder and stinkier.
 

BlackSwordsman

I MUST BREAK YOU!
I just noticed that since theres a new God Hand born every 216 years then how could Slann and Void know each other? Slann would have to wait 216 years to become a God Hand after Void.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
UrashimaSenpai said:
I wonder if God Hands existed at the beginning of time. Sound stupid, yes, but if they were born at a specific point of time, then they're not so god-like afterall. There must be something bigger, badder and stinkier.

Like Mizar said below, there was. Idea. He's the one with all the plans in store for the world, basically. He is God Hand's superior. It's like with Hellraiser. I keep bringing that up because that's the closest metaphor I can think of. All the cenobites were human once, imbued with powers once they had given themselves up to the 'Leviathan god' in the box. Leviathan, like Idea, had no real 'shape or form'.. it was basically a force.

LG
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Majin Tenshi said:
That is a rather good interesting theory. But I think theres a rather substantial hole in it.

Godhand sacrifices are big and noticible, one would assume. The common assumption is that Void's sacrifice was Gaseric's kingdom. I don't think Idea/godhand would use elemental spirits to sacrifice anything though. Its mostly that I've gotten the impression that the elements try to counterbalance idea. (which could have an interesting meaning.)


Then who were the four angels who came down to destroy the kingdom? I didn't say it was Idea who used elemental spirits, I said it was Void, because my theory was since Mozgus said he was a 'wise man' I figured, maybe he was some kind of wizard or sorcerer.

LG
 

Majin_Tenshi

The can opener went bye-bye...
it is the common theory that Voids sacrifice was Gaseric's empire.

The person who sacrifices doesn't kill thier sacrifice. If they do, its after they're transformed.

My point was that if Void used the empire as his sacrifice, he would have done it as void, not a human. I don't think those with the "scent" of Idea can withstand the elemental spirits/fairy "scent" very well.

Of course, I'm just argueing with the common theory, not one I endorse or deny.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Majin Tenshi said:
it is the common theory that Voids sacrifice was Gaseric's empire.

The person who sacrifices doesn't kill thier sacrifice. If they do, its after they're transformed.

My point was that if Void used the empire as his sacrifice, he would have done it as void, not a human. I don't think those with the "scent" of Idea can withstand the elemental spirits/fairy "scent" very well.

Of course, I'm just argueing with the common theory, not one I endorse or deny.

The members of Godhand were HUMAN when they made the sacrifices they did. Griffith was human at the time he decided to give up the Hawks as a sacrifice to become Femto. Whoever 'Void' was BEFORE he became Void he had to be a human being. Strangely enough you might be able toget some clues from his name 'Void.' Void=empty space, nothingness in meaning. Maybe he called upon the 4 angels and had Gaiseric's empire wiped out...he could take his name Void because he was either empty inside as a human...or the empire that was sacrificed was now an 'empty' wasteland.

LG
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
I see Void as someone who knew Gaseric before his kingdom fell. My theory is that Void was a minister or underling for Gaseric and plotted behind his back to bring the downfall of his kingdom through Idea and the Godhand. I also had a weird dream where I saw Void as this frail old man (kind of like the Worm Baron's aide in the first two manga) who sold himself and his people to bring about the downfall of Gaseric, which might explain some of the obvious tension between Void and the Skullknight.

As for Slan, she was probably a prostitute who had great influence over some powerful people throught her, *ahem* services. I always associate her as the founder of that weird minotar orgy thingy (don't know what to call it). She tends to enjoy feeding off of other peoples feelings like desire and pain. That was probably her lovechild so to speak and she probably sacraficed her band of prostitutes to gain her place as a Godhand.
Again, just a theory.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
You'll note there is a strong sadomasochistic element throughout the entire series.

When Slann sees Femto raping Caska she says " It's so beautiful...this is human, this is demonic!" So I take that a step further with your idea, and say Slann was a prostitute who enjoyed pain in her sexuality as well. Interesting theory.

Now I wonder who the hell Ubik and Conrad were....


LG
 
If Void (as a human) had simply done magic to destroy Gaiseric's kingdom, what did he sacrifice to become a Godhand, and why were there all those branded dead people down in that pit?
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
The people with the brands were the people in Gaiseric's empire...remember, the whole thing came crashing down. Who else would the 'four angels' be? They couldn 't have been Godhand because Void and Femto were not obviously Godhand members. Which would have left the possibility of Slann, Conrad, and Ubik, but it sounds like Slann became a Godhand members AFTER Void. The four angels could have been the spirits of water, earth, fire, and air ( wind) . If he was not necessarily a wizard ( but remember, only people like Shierke could call down the 4 spirits, someone who did have some connection to the magical realm/astral realm) he could have also been a minister perhaps who turned against Gaiseric.

LG
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
I have a little different theory about all this, it's not new and it probably has been mentioned somewhere before here, but I'll try to explain anyway, it's very simple, maybe even too simple. It's a theory based on the cycles of every 216 years a new God hand, and every +/- 1000 years a reborn one. I don't know how long Idea and the Godhand existed, but it's likely that it's a least more than one cycle of 1000 years (correct me if I'm wrong here). According to this as I call it 'loop theory' there were already 4 (+1 reborn) Godhands present appr. 1000 (864?) years ago, and the whole cycle was just reaching its end and ready to come full circle with the help of the reborn one at that time (King Gaiseric?). The old 4 Godhands were removed/destroyed/sacrificed somehow in the process and the ascendance of Void as the first Godhand in the fresh reborn world started the beginning of the next cycle again. This would explain at least how there could have been 4 (5) angels summoned back then, but doesn't explain what exactly happened at the tower of Rebirth and the other tower where Griffith was tortured though.

Are there any holes in this loop theory? Can this be possibly true? Could King Gaiseric be the reborn Godhand of the last 1000-year cycle? (he came out of nowhere and became King)
And didn't Miura say himself somewhere that Void was the first Godhand (of the new cycle)?
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
Mizar said:
I have a little different theory about all this, it's not new and it probably has been mentioned somewhere before here, but I'll try to explain anyway, it's very simple, maybe even too simple. It's a theory based on the cycles of every 216 years a new God hand, and every +/- 1000 years a reborn one. I don't know how long Idea and the Godhand existed, but it's likely that it's a least more than one cycle of 1000 years (correct me if I'm wrong here). According to this as I call it 'loop theory' there were already 4 (+1 reborn) Godhands present appr. 1000 (864?) years ago, and the whole cycle was just reaching its end and ready to come full circle with the help of the reborn one at that time (King Gaiseric?). The old 4 Godhands were removed/destroyed/sacrificed somehow in the process and the ascendance of Void as the first Godhand in the fresh reborn world started the beginning of the next cycle again. This would explain at least how there could have been 4 (5) angels summoned back then, but doesn't explain what exactly happened at the tower of Rebirth and the other tower where Griffith was tortured though.

Are there any holes in this loop theory? Can this be possibly true? Could King Gaiseric be the reborn Godhand of the last 1000-year cycle? (he came out of nowhere and became King)
And didn't Miura say himself somewhere that Void was the first Godhand (of the new cycle)?

I really like that theory. But it does strike me as odd that it's 216 years. Why not a round number like 200? With 216 years it takes 1080 years for all five Godhand to be born. I'm not sure if there's supposed to be some signifigance to this number or Miura just decided to do it.

But your theory really shows how the Berserk world is circular. It makes me wonder if Zodd is to Skullknight as Gatts is to Griffith. During the eclipse you learn that they have fought for over a thousand years. Zodd, like Gatts, is incredibly strong and can't seem to be beaten in battle whereas both Skullknight and Griffith are skilled swordsmen. Just another theory to toss out there.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Godhand Theories/Gaiseric and Void, Zodd

Miyu said:
I really like that theory. But it does strike me as odd that it's 216 years. Why not a round number like 200? With 216 years it takes 1080 years for all five Godhand to be born. I'm not sure if there's supposed to be some signifigance to this number or Miura just decided to do it.

But your theory really shows how the Berserk world is circular. It makes me wonder if Zodd is to Skullknight as Gatts is to Griffith. During the eclipse you learn that they have fought for over a thousand years. Zodd, like Gatts, is incredibly strong and can't seem to be beaten in battle whereas both Skullknight and Griffith are skilled swordsmen. Just another theory to toss out there.

That's something I never thought about. I'm not very good with numbers obviously. But the reason I speculated about Void being a fomer magician of some kind was because I was discussing this with another member here and we thought it was an interesting theory that since only people who had some connection with the astral and spiritual 'magic' realm could call up the four spirits ( or maybe 'angels, though it makes more sense if the 'angels Void called up to destroy Gaiseric's empire were former GodHand members...though it's hard to explain at this point if they were really 'Godhand' or the spirits of earth, fire, water and air) perhaps Void ( well, in his human form) was a wizard or warlock.


As to the theory if the God Hand members of that day and age when King Gaiseric lived ( which was 1000 years ago according to Charlotte's story about the destruction of Old Midland) I really can't speculate on whether or not they were sacrified too. I didn't think God Hand members could be sacrificied, or gotten rid of that easily. But then think about what Charlotte was saying..and Caska said," WAS IT FOUR ANGELS OR FIVE?" FOUR would seem more appropriate whether the 'angels' were Godhand members, or the spirits of earth, wind, fire and air.

But you're absolutely right about Berserk being 'circular' in nature. Things come full circle. Zodd/Gaiseric, Guts/Griffith. That's very interesting you made that connection. Yet in the manga and anime, wasn't it mentioned that ' FOR OVER THREE HUNDRED YEARS' Zodd prowled the battlefields? ( not a thousand?)

LG
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
Miyu said:
With 216 years it takes 1080 years for all five Godhand to be born. I'm not sure if there's supposed to be some signifigance to this number or Miura just decided to do it.

Actually, if you do the math well it would take 864 years for all five Godhand to be born (the first starts at year 0).

And as for the reason why there's an eclipse exactly every 216 years, well, this may sound a little farfetched, but 216 is a multiple of 18 (12x18), and 18 years is known as the Saros Cycle, which describes the repeating cycle of eclipses of the sun and moon. There is nothing really special about the number 12 though, except that it's the number of months in a solar year. I guess Miura knows about the Saros Cycle, so maybe he used it to come up with the cycle of eclipses in Berserk?
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
Mizar said:
Actually, if you do the math well it would take 864 years for all five Godhand to be born (the first starts at year 0).

I was never a math person. But that does make sense now that I think about it, no wonder my checkbook is never balanced.
 
I think alot of people are forgetting that there are not just 4 spiritual entities from the astral. There is the 5th one Shadow( or Darkness whichever it is called). The shadow one was described as being dangerous to call in the recent chapters of Berserk. Maybe this is what caska was talking about there being 5 not 4 angels. Also since shadow is dangerous maybe the magician(or wisemen) ended up losing control of the shadow entity and it caused the sacrifice and then something happens which causes idea to promote him to the godhand position.
or he was such a powerful magician who lost control of is magic and somehow opened a portal to idea. Idea recognizes this power and promotes him to godhand.
its a very speculative theory, just thought i'd throw that out there.
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
namayias said:
I think alot of people are forgetting that there are not just 4 spiritual entities from the astral. There is the 5th one Shadow( or Darkness whichever it is called).

Interesting theory, but there is no 5th one in my opinion, that was a misinterpretation. Schierke simply used the power of the spirits of earth and water to summon this astral being from the dark (which is very powerful but dangerous). This spirit calls itself the master of decaying root, and must be some kind of dark plant-like spirit, created from the elemental spirits of earth and water. At least this is what I gathered from what I could read from chapters 220 and 221.
 

BlackSwordsman

I MUST BREAK YOU!
I really like all these ideas you guys have. I'm trying to finish the whole thing in my about what happened. If Gaiseric was a God Hand reincarnated. That would mean that maybe the God Hand destroyed the ex God Hands empire? I was thinking too. Maybe Gaiseric sacrificed his own kingdom but that doesn't fit. My theory needs a lot of tweeking since if Gaiseric was already a God Hand and the cycle was complete he wouldn't be able to come back (I don't think.) Sooooo...Forget i'm confused i'll just let Miura answer my questions.
 
remember skully has the essence of a fairy, not a god hand. I think puck points this out in one of the chapters and if sully were a godhand he'd make gatsu's brand bleed. Which doesn't bleed when skully is around.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
namayias said:
remember skully has the essence of a fairy, not a god hand. I think puck points this out in one of the chapters and if sully were a godhand he'd make gatsu's brand bleed. Which doesn't bleed when skully is around.
Wow! It's amazing that people still debate over these issues, nearly 3 years after I started reading Berserk. Anyway, my old theory was that Gaiseric was the original reincarnated God Hand, born 1000 years ago. The main support for this was Gaiseric's empire being 1000 years ago as well as his mention of the 1000 year rebirth ceremony. Seems like a strange coincidence. Other than that, the Gaiseric/Griffith parallel seems a little revealing.

As for why Skully doesn't make Guts brand bleed well... it has been 1000 years since Void's birth (inferring the end of Gaiseric's God Hand career). Maybe he weeded out whatever was left of his evil during that long millennium.

But Flora's words to Skully in Chapter 203: "Is that because fellow sufferers pity one another? Or are you just using him? I want to believe you still haven't lost your humanity, my old friend..." Makes him sound much more like a sacrifice than anything.

Final issue, why did Puck sense "yosei" (fairy) on Skully? That could just be Skully's essence in the interstice that he was sensing. In Chapter 201, Flora introduces us to the creatures of the Interstice (Hazama), among which is the Fairy, who we've of course been familiar with since Puck's introduction. If you ask me, the Interstice is where Skully would call his "home" if he actually has such a thing.

This brings me to my conclusion: After years of studying Berserk, the more I learn, the less I know. I honestly don't have much of a theory about who our old war horse is anymore, nor do I even have a clue how the series will end.
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
Walter said:
But Flora's words to Skully in Chapter 203: "Is that because fellow sufferers pity one another? Or are you just using him? I want to believe you still haven't lost your humanity, my old friend..." Makes him sound much more like a sacrifice than anything.

Can't he be both? Or if we follow the theory that the Berserk world is cyclical with a different set of Godhand every +/-1000 years, then maybe King Gaiseric should have been destroyed/sacrificed/whatever before the beginning of the next cycle. But he wasn't, and survived against all odds, just like Guts did. I don't know, just offering some ideas here.

Also, I think it's important to look at the exact meaning of Flora's words very carefully. Flora is only saying that Skully is a fellow sufferer, so this doesn't necessarily mean that they have both been branded. It could also mean that they both have been betrayed by someone or have lost something dear to them like Guts lost the Hawks and Caska's sanity. That would make them "fellow sufferers" as well, no?

And the reason I think there must have been a different Godhand before is that at the tower with all the branded people in the pit they said that 4 or 5 angels came down and killed (and branded) all those people. Since I assume that none of the current Godhand members existed at that time I'm thinking there must have been 4 or 5 other ones before.

This brings me to my conclusion: After years of studying Berserk, the more I learn, the less I know. I honestly don't have much of a theory about who our old war horse is anymore, nor do I even have a clue how the series will end.

Me neither, and to be honest I'm really happy about that. ;D
I just hope that Miura has it all still figured out himself and that he didn't get lost in his own plot over all these years. In other words I hope that the things that have been said and done in older volumes won't contradict with developments later on.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Mizar said:
Also, I think it's important to look at the exact meaning of Flora's words very carefully. Flora is only saying that Skully is a fellow sufferer, so this doesn't necessarily mean that they have both been branded. It could also mean that they both have been betrayed by someone or have lost something dear to them like Guts lost the Hawks and Caska's sanity. That would make them "fellow sufferers" as well, no?
True, her wording is indeed vague but I think it's interesting Miura chose to phrase it this way. Though it's a general statement, it infers that there's more of a parallel to Guts than anything. And if we're going with the Causality is a cycle theory, they are more alike than we know.

And the reason I think there must have been a different Godhand before is that at the tower with all the branded people in the pit they said that 4 or 5 angels came down and killed (and branded) all those people. Since I assume that none of the current Godhand members existed at that time I'm thinking there must have been 4 or 5 other ones before.
But Schierke mentioned that the 4 Kings are the angels mentioned in the Holy See. Indirectly, we can infer it is they who destroyed Gaiseric's empire. And since Void was a "wise man" it would make sense if he knew a little bit about summonings, just as Schierke did.

Though this is getting convoluted (no one's fault but Miura's vagueness), Void could have both summoned the 4 Kings and been the first God Hand. Perhaps just as Schierke invoked both the Water spirit (windinu, chapter 211) and the shadow spirit (chapter 221), Void invoked Idea, the aftermath of which caused the first shoku, branding the citizens of Gaiseric's empire.

The one refutal of this... Skully: "Once every 1000 years..."

Anyway, my reasoning for this wacky theory came to me as I re-read through the past 20 chapters. It seems strange for Miura to all of the sudden bring up the concept of summonings and the 5/6 spirits (earth, water, wind, fire, shadow and...?). Almost as if he's setting us up for another major revelation by tying what we now know about the magic world with established characters. In short, where is all this magic talk leading us?

Even acknowledging my continuing lack of understanding of where the series is headed, I can't help but speculate. 8)
 
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