Guts and Causality, Part II!

Walter, I know you made a post on this a few years ago =p Here's my take.

I've heard a few theories regarding Guts and why he seems to not be under the influence of causality. Some think that it's because he doesn't believe in God (or essentially Idea), because he defies it. Others think that it's because of an anomaly in the flows of causality, that he was meant to die, but didn't, and was thus overlooked and left untouched ever since, since to idea, he was already dead and didn't need any guidance. And some believe that his very existance warps causality, for every time that he is going to die, someone, usually many many someones, dies in his place, usually at the end of Guts' own sword, or via seemingly natural circumstances or coincidence.

However, this can't entirely be true, because of how instrumental Guts was in both Griffith's turning into Femto, and his rebirth. Guts was guided by causality to be the factor that brings Griffith into God Hand-dom.

First off, let's look at Guts' childhood. The fact that a boy can be birthed from a corpse and survive in a puddle of blood and birthing fluids is almost legendary in itself. The fact that a boy can start fighting battles at age 6 and not only live, but thrive, is incredible. But what really gets me is the wolf scene. It's the only time Guts ever gives up and hasn't the will to survive. He accepts death and welcomes it. However, in that moment of weakness, he still somehow fights back, even though he doesn't understand it or expect it. Is this just because of his incredible instincts, or was it causality saving his ass? Even looking at the scene, some of it doesn't all quite fit, namely when the first dog he kills lands on him, yet he still gets his sword out of it, one handed, while it's on top of him, to kill the next wolf. It's almost as though he wasn't really fighting, but just somehow making it through. Now why the hell would causality allow him to live?

Secondly let's look at the Golden Age. Do you think the events all could have gone the way they did if Guts wasn't in the picture? The Hawks probably would have been able to still be victorious the way they were, if with more Hawk casualties and Griffith having to fight more (for example, Boscogne). However, if it werent' for Guts, would Griff really have gone off and boned Charlotte? No, not at least at the time that he did. Griffith's capture and torture is directly related to Guts. The king would have likely gotten rid of Griffith at some point (or more likely, Griffith would have gotten rid of the king), but would all the events that would come from that way all lead up to the exact scheduled time of the eclipse, with the hawks present to be sacrificed? Quite likely, as there are many paths in the flows of causality, but the one involving Guts was the one taken. If not for Guts, everything, EVERYTHING would have gone differently leading up to the eclipse.

Another thing to consider is Skully's visit to Guts as shortly after he left the Hawks. Skully says it outright what will happen in a year, because 'the gears have been set in motion', and by who other than Guts? Also at Floras, he says to her that Guts 'might yet be one of the variables guided by causality'. Variables is an interesting term here.

Now let's look at the eclipse itself, and Caska's rape. This rape was, in some way, planned by causality or Femto or both, to create the vessel for Griffith's new incarnation. However, would Femto even bothered if it wasn't to get back at Guts? There are, of course, many paths, but guess what? This is the path that has been taken.

Finally let's look at the second 'mirror' eclipse. Now, there are many things to be interpreted here. Many events, and many little tidbits. One thing stands out, as pointed out by Walter: The ceremony didn't start till Guts was at the same relative place he was in the last eclipse: in the palm of the hand of God. Now, just now writing that that stands out as a nice little piece of symbolism. But back to the point, Guts and Caksa being in the same relative areas they were in the previous eclipse began the ceremony, unless it was 'just' a coincidence regarding the timing of everything.

As another side note, isn't it funny and ironic that Guts and Caksa are technically the parents (on maybe more levels than one) of the new Griffith?

But to wrap it up, I present my point: Guts was definetly once in idea's plan, and still might be. In fact, I think Guts may be an incredibly powerful factor in the flows of causality, whether intended by idea or not.

Now, how the fuck does this make sense? Why is something that is a threat to God hand and its disciples still alive? Hear me out.

Griffith once told Guts that there are people, regardless of social class bestowed by people, that guide the world...essentially Griffith told Guts what he hoped to be. However, also consider this: Griffith considered Guts an equal, without really realizing it, and broke his own expectations on what makes a friend. Perhaps Guts is like Griffith in that aspect. He could have been empowered by Idea, before birth, to become a legendary and influental person. Except, the anomaly here, isn't that Guts was supposed to die in birth, no. He was definetly meant to live long enough to bring Griffith to become Femto. Rather, the anomaly is that he was supposed to die during the eclipse, but Skully interfered. Whether or not Skully interfered, Caska would have been allowed to live to give birth to the demon child and survive until the mirror eclipse, since she had to be there to begin the ceremony of rebirth if she lived through the first eclipse. Guts wouldn't have had to live, however, since he didn't have to give birth to anything. But, he did.

So now, what we have, is an individual who has been empowered by Idea from the beginning to be able to achieve greatness, but didn't have his life cut short when it was supposed to be. Not only that, but he has been in the interstice and all but forced to fight evil for two years, which has further empowered him to what he is now: one of the baddest mothers on the planet.

What I don't know, is whether Guts is still caught up in the flows of causality, or why he is carrying a behelit...maybe there is more intended for him in idea's plans than is expected?

He could, of course, be harboring it for someone else to use, but also consider this: Flora told Guts that it would be there for the owner at the right time, no matter what, and that if it wasn't meant for the person carrying it, it'd leave their possession no matter how hard they try to keep it. Guts said he'd get rid of it immediately shortly thereafter... However, little ol' Puck says, 'Hell no!', and takes it away from him so he can later stow it in Guts' pack. Now, that could have just been a plug for humor, but it could have also been some foreshadowing as well. And no, I don't mean it regarding Puck using a behelit ;D

Edited for spelling errors, thanks Walter =p Never noticed cos I always speed read and just took it as the most familiar interpretation.

Re:Guts and Casualty, Part II!

Yeah, I mentioned that theory about 3 years ago, but about 2 years ago I woke up and realized how much Guts is tied to Causality. There's undeniable evidence.

Re:Guts and Casualty, Part II!

Um, what's the operant definition of Causality used here? Because you seem to be shifting between three:

Definition 1: Causality is the "plan" of Idea and the God Hand. As readers we don't have a total picture of the ends or means of this project. Depending how we as individuals interpret the nature of the Idea and the Godhand, this definition incorporates aspects of the other two.

Definition 2: Causality is predetermination in a Calvinist sense, referent to a plan set in motion by an omnipotent being -- ie the Christian God, or an abstract absolute agent such as the Hellenic version of Fate displayed in Stoicist-influenced works like Oedipus Rex. Inherent in this definition is immutability...that some agent has the ability to assert with 100% certainty that A will lead to B. For the sake of sanity, let's call this predetermination.

Definition 3: Causality is the flow of possible outcomes from available circumstances, in an sense equivalent to oddsmaking, or cause-effect trees in experimental design. For clarity, let's call this total causality. The relationship of cause-effect in "the real world" is often linear and comprehensible, but sometimes is fractal and chaotic, in the "butterfly flaps it wings and starts a hurricane" way. Total causality is also thermodynamic causality, in that the randomness inherent to the universe(s) means that even the most certain event is highly probabilistic [99.99% likely] rather than inevitable [100% likely].

Now the word "causality" denotes definition three, but it's not clear what Miura means by it when the word is tossed out by, say, Void -- there are lacing of all three versions in his little expositions, and depending upon interpretation of the few Godhand scenes and other relevant moments, different readers will extract different interpretations by way of their subjective attributions.

I've suppositioned elsewhere that Idea and the Godhand are trying to limit, or monopolize, causality...which falls under definition 1. It's not that they have total control [100% infallible understanding of events] but rather that they have a controlling interest...hence emphatically not predetermination. In a way, the Godhand seem intent upon selling the idea the that the way things are is predetermined...they certainly say it a lot, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's true, ne? "True" Causality, a la definition 3, exists as the backdrop against which Idea, etc., set their own plan in contrast. ...which is in contrast to the almost propagandic assertion of the Godhand and its [witting and unwitting] agents that everything emanates from a few easily comprehensible sources.

That's my version/interpretation of things. My biases, to put a plain face on it.

Vis a vis Gatts, he's obviously a part of total causality, because everything is, from cosmoses to neutrinos. Whether or not he's part of a predetermined "Fate" that's being acted out depends on reader opinions. Predetermination a la definition two assumes an absolute agent [omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent] to start things in motion (like Descartes' Great Watchmaker), and it is arguable whether or not such a thing has been evidenced in the Berserk universe.

Some see Idea as filling this role, yet the operating definition we are granted for Idea (in God of the Abyss 2) leaves room for doubt of its infallibility. The same is true of the God Hand...while their power is assuredly greater than than a of human, we have no evidence that they, singlely or collectively, possess absolute control even over some limited domain (like a pantheic deity's control of fire, or fertility, etc.). IF one believes in the omnipotence of Idea, then it follows that Gatts's entire life has been set up beforehand as part of the road from Griffith to Femto.

If one doubts this assertion, then alternate explanations for Gatts's life and its collision with Griffith are possible. After all, if the God Hand, et al, were closely tending Griffith's life to "cultivate" that individual, then Gatts may have just had the misfortune of stumbling in at the right moment and being their improvised tool, rather than one custom-made for the job.
It's possible that the God Hand's plan doesn't encompass every single life...that their emphasis is upon certain people being built up to be useful. Griffith being the prime example. Ancillary to this is the manipulation of environmental circumstances to craft said individual -- people, places, experiences. One can think of this process as a chemical synthesis experiment: one begins with a agent (ie toluene) and by a series of steps (heating, the adding of reactive and catalytic chemicals) creates a desired product (ie trinitrotlouene, or TNT). But even small, controlled lab synthesis has both input and output factors that are disregarded because they're thought to be unimportant...they don't affect the desired outcome of the linear route between toluene and TNT, between Griffith and Femto. To continue the metaphor, Gatts is like an accidental catalyst in the synthesis of Femto: the God Hand could find another way put Griffith in a position to use the Beherit, but his improbable emotions towards the drifting mercenary provided an opening, a way of accelerating the process.

Re:Guts and Casualty, Part II!

Furthermore, barring some extrapolation of the Japanese that I don't have the language skills for, there is absolutely no textual evidence that the Demon Child was meant to be a part of the Birth Ritual.

The implication during the Eclipse is that Femto is compiled from the spiritual and emotional sacrifice of the Hawks. Likewise it is suggested that Griffith is reborn via the wishes of all of the suffering people in Midland...and most specifically the refugees consumed en masse around the Tower. There's no systemic logic suggesting the need for some pseudogenetic "pound of flesh." It doesn't enter into it.

Indeed, the strangely sympathetic action of the Egg Apostle could just as likely be interpreted as an anomaly, even a disastrous random factor literally encorporated into the reborn Griffith. "Reunion of the Hills of Swords" and the chpater s after strongly suggest that Griffith views the Demon Child -- and its lingering affect -- as a contaminant, a root of doubt. There is no declaration of its necessity, only of regretting its presence.

The actions of "Reunion" and the following chapters tell even more: really, why doesn't Griffith simply kill Gatts, rather than making snotty remarks and leaving the task to Zodd? If he feels nothing, would not pure situational logic suggest he remove this obstacle immediately? Without factoring in interpretation of the act of saving Caska, Griffith's behavior towards Gatts begs questioning: vindictiveness is an emotion, scorn is an emotion, and both are negative residues of strong positive affect.

Re:Guts and Casualty, Part II!

Bloody Needle said:

Furthermore, barring some extrapolation of the Japanese that I don't have the language skills for, there is absolutely no textual evidence that the Demon Child was meant to be a part of the Birth Ritual.

Click to expand...

I remember seeing a diagram drawn onto the back of one of the artbooks that had a picture of Femto emerging from the middle with different points of the diagram ending on some specific pictures i.e. Void, Idea and the Demon Child. Unfortunatly I don't have it right in front of me, but that diagram seemed to me to indicate that the Demon Child was meant to be part of the Ritual. If anyone has a scan of that image, it would be great.

Re:Guts and Casualty, Part II!

Its already been decided, hes part of causaty plain and simple.

*edit (Casulty = causalty now...) Damn me for reading it off of the top and using his version...

Re:Guts and Casualty, Part II!

It's CAUsality. Not Casualty...

Re:Guts and Causalty, Part II!

I really doubt that gatts is still part of causality, under the first definition (plan of gh and idea). Struggle against fate seems to be the obvious theme of the manga. Though it could just be very thoroughly setting up for a hopeless and depressing ending procaliming the superiority of fate. A more valid point: If i remember correctly, gh were surprised when skull knight busted in during the eclipse. without skull knight, gatts was almost certainly going to die. Meaning gh at that point expected, and probably planned for, his death.

edit: furthermore, i just rememberd a quote by griffith to gatts when the count used the behelit for the second time: something like "You are only good as a sacrifice." Very nicely supporting my claim.