Guts: A small ripple to a destructive wave?

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Well I have been thinking about berserk latly, and I was wondering how could someone insignificant as guts change midland's fate? It seems he has the chance to do so, mainly because he is not bound by fate (since he was born from a corpes). [all thats in bold is my speculation on guts] He probably isn't supposed to be alive right now, and like skully said, he struggles every day, keeping himself alive.

Anyways, everything that guts did affected somthing else in some way. If guts wasn't there to save caska (doing CPR on her when they fell off the cliff togeather), then she would probably be dead. She would have fell off the cliff because of her period, regardless of gut's actions. If he wasn't there she would probably drown. Also, he was fated to die in the eclipes, but he didn't. Neither did she. Remember she was saved by guts before, and that might have broken her tie to fate too. I know it was skull knight that saved the two at the eclipes, but how do we know that if they were tied to fate, they wouldn't die sooner?

I know some of you people would say, "What about griffith, if it weren't for guts, his ambition might have not crumbled." But rememeber, griffith was supposed to be Mr.perfect. The only time he has ever lost was to guts. And he might have been imprisioned sooner or later by the king, because he would have to try going after charolette anyways. The hawks would try to rescue griffith regardless of what guts did, and wyld would come, try to kill griffith, only to be saved by zodd.

Well anyways, for those of you who have seen final destination, the concept is kind of like that. Because someone alredy dead and not in fates control,rescue's some other person, that other person is SUPPOSED to be dead but he is not. So that releases him from fate's control. I would like to state I see fate as the idea.

Ishrido was saved by guts a number of times, like when they first met, guts killed the kushan or when he helped him from the field of undead wheels. His ties with fate could also be cut.

In other words, Guts alredy be a major threat to the Godshand and maybe even the Idea of Evil. Maybe not to the Idea of Evil itself, but maybe its plan for griffith's kingdom.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
DemonX said:
Well I have been thinking about berserk latly, and I was wondering how could someone insignificant as guts change midland's fate?
Midland? That's a little small scale, don't you think? Sorry, I'm just nitpicking...

Anyways, everything that guts did affected somthing else in some way.
And your argument is still that Guts is outside of causality? (please, call it what it is.)

But rememeber, griffith was supposed to be Mr.perfect. The only time he has ever lost was to guts. And he might have been imprisioned sooner or later by the king, because he would have to try going after charolette anyways.
Well, the King wouldn't have had a problem with Griffith and Charlotte's union if it were done properly. The King had already given Griffith the highest rank in the military, why not his daughter too, eventually? It was already forseeable, even by outsiders such as Judeau and Casca. Besides, Griffith's downfall as a consequence of Guts actions plays directly into the hands of causality. His body was ruined as a result, necessitating a new one to seize his dream. Guts again, is vital to the system. This is all elementary, is it not?

The hawks would try to rescue griffith regardless of what guts did
And fail. This is another example of where Guts was utterly necessary for the Hawks survival. Another prime example is the assault on Doldrey. Do you think Pippen could have stood up against Boscone? Corcas? Rickert? ;D

and wyld would come, try to kill griffith, only to be saved by zodd.
And the Hawks would have been obliterated. I see your intentions with this reasoning but it's simply not meant to be. There aren't mistakes in Causality up until after the Eclipse (if you can even call Skull Knight's intervention a mistake). Among several other instances, the timing was perfect with Guts stalling Wyald for Zodd's "rescue". Guts was meant to be there.

Ishrido was saved by guts a number of times, like when they first met, guts killed the kushan or when he helped him from the field of undead wheels. His ties with fate could also be cut.
Rather random reference, but I see your point. You have to consider, however, that Idea manipulates people and situations. Would it allow Isidro to even be born if he were a threat to the function of the system? Is Guts rescueing Isidro from his "fated" death, or just ushering him along on his destiny?

This is not to say that I don't support that Guts is ultimately climbing the ladder towards being "outside the tale". I do. However, I don't believe this process began until Skull Knight rescued Guts and Casca in the eclipse.
 

Begemot

STOP UNDRESSING ME WITH YOUR EYES!
But wouldn't Skull Knight's rescue of Guts and Caska be necessary for Idea to uphold its end of the bargain with Griffith?

Caska would be necessary for a proper vessel at least.

If Skulley crashed in any later the apostles probably would have killed the two, and any earlier Femto wouldn't have been finished. I wonder if that's why he had such an easy time with Zodd compared to what we saw recently.
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Well you have destroyed most of my reasoning, but...

Well, the King wouldn't have had a problem with Griffith and Charlotte's union if it were done properly. The King had already given Griffith the highest rank in the military, why not his daughter too, eventually? It was already forseeable, even by outsiders such as Judeau and Casca.

Didn't the king want Charlotte for himself? Not even Judeau and Casca could see the king trying to rape his own daughter. And the king holds an enormous amout of respect for griffith... but to what extent? Just think of the speech he gave griffith when he was whipping him...
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Woland said:
But wouldn't Skull Knight's rescue of Guts and Caska be necessary for Idea to uphold its end of the bargain with Griffith?

Caska would be necessary for a proper vessel at least.

Good call. I ran head-first into that one. However, it still doesn't explain Guts rescue.

Pushing further, and giving a rare glimpse into my actual speculation on this subject :eek: , I've always seen Guts as a large, blunt object used by Idea for Griffith's purposes. Guts is a nigh indestructable weapon that was necessary for Griffith's rise to power. This being said (and being rather obvious...), he is a discarded tool that wasn't expected to survive. He was built too well.

Destined to be the ripple that will destroy Idea? That's taking on too many unknowns. It's about as grounded as declaring proudly, "that new, naked kid is definitely going to bring down God Hand!" However, as stated before, Guts sure is shaping up to a useful tool once again, with Skully's guidance.

DemonX said:
Didn't the king want Charlotte for himself? Not even Judeau and Casca could see the king trying to rape his own daughter.
The King's passion for his daughter was latent, and probably would never have been realized if Griffith hadn't antagonized him.

If you want proof, then consider why King choose to assault Charlotte directly after the controversial "treason" and not, say, on his birthday? As a royal decree, he could have ordered Charlotte to pop out of a birthday cake topless if he'd wanted it beforehand.
 

Begemot

STOP UNDRESSING ME WITH YOUR EYES!
Walter said:
Good call. I ran head-first into that one. However, it still doesn't explain Guts rescue.

Pushing further, and giving a rare glimpse into my actual speculation on this subject :eek: , I've always seen Guts as a large, blunt object used by Idea for Griffith's purposes. Guts is a nigh indestructable weapon that was necessary for Griffith's rise to power. This being said (and being rather obvious...), he is a discarded tool that wasn't expected to survive. He was built too well.

Destined to be the ripple that will destroy Idea? That's taking on too many unknowns. It's about as grounded as declaring proudly, "that new, naked kid is definitely going to bring down God Hand!" However, as stated before, Guts sure is shaping up to a useful tool once again, with Skully's guidance.

There's no question he was a tool for Idea Pre-Eclipse, as he's always seemed supernaturally strong and fast, especially when he gets mad.

I straddle the fence between the idea of Guts as a well-built tool that was discarded and survived, and Guts as a tool still tied to causality, but I'm leaning towards the former. Either way, I expect he has a similar relationship to fate as Skull Knight.

He may be a ripple, but that means he is still part of the ocean. He definately alters the outcome of events, such as the profound effect he's had on Farneese (and the fact that she's still alive). We probably won't be able to know for sure until the end.

Right now, I like the idea of Post-Eclipse Guts as entropy at work in Idea's machinations.
 
All i know is that everthing began because of Guts, if Guts have not met Griffith, this wouldnt happen, if Guts have have slaughter during their second battle, this wouldnt happen, if Guts have not return to save Griffith, this wouldnt happen...


That why he said this in vol 17: all this happen because of me, so i shall end it with my own hand
 
DemonX said:
In other words, Guts alredy be a major threat to the Godshand and maybe even the Idea of Evil. Maybe not to the Idea of Evil itself, but maybe its plan for griffith's kingdom.

To the godhand he might become a threat in time, afterall Slann admits that they did not forsee Guts surviving and something like "we are not god himself", so to me that means the idea probably did know he would, along with knowing everything else in the world.
I dont think he will ever become a threat to the idea, and I dont think the godhand consider Guts a threat either as in several cases when they speak of him they dont seem to take him seriously. That aside Guts's survival as something that was thought even by demon kings never to happen means his chances of bringing them down are possible simply because he did survive.

I think in the story his chances of fulfilling his revenge is not made to be a likely thing to take place, but rather a small amount of chance by him since he has surprised the godhand once, and proved anything is possible.
 
But if Guts is free of casualty/fate then he/his path is unable to be manipulated by the Idea of Evil. However, I think the Idea knows this so he manipulates those who are around him in order to directly affect him.
 
Sparnage said:
To the godhand he might become a threat in time, afterall Slann admits that they did not forsee Guts surviving and something like "we are not god himself", so to me that means the idea probably did know he would, along with knowing everything else in the world.
I dont think he will ever become a threat to the idea, and I dont think the godhand consider Guts a threat either as in several cases when they speak of him they dont seem to take him seriously.

Think of Skullknight. Even if Slann was arrogant with him, this doesn't mean that he doesn't pose a threat for them.

dwarfkicker said:
But if Guts is free of casualty/fate then he/his path is unable to be manipulated by the Idea of Evil. However, I think the Idea knows this so he manipulates those who are around him in order to directly affect him.

Again, think of skullknight. Do you think he is in idea's plan or simply something gotten a bit out of it's control?
Anyway, what Walter said is the valid thing. Guts is, or rather was in the plan. Remember the visit Skullknight paid him before the eclipse ;)
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
Pulling from a few veins from other people's posts, I think if anyone would pose a credible threat to Idea, that would be Skullknight. He probably witnessed the start of the Godhand and since it started with him, it could potentially end with him. In my book, he's his own mover breaking away from Idea's influcence of causality. There are probably a lot of arguments to say that he may be within causality's grasp, but I think he's definitely broken free more so than anyone else.

By himself, Skullknight hasn't been able to bring about the downfall of Idea or the Godhand and I don't think Guts would if he worked alone either. But I wonder if Skullknight is going to lead Guts down the same path he walked so the two can work together against the Godhand and Idea. Guts could just as well be a tool for Skullknight as he was a tool of causality.
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
dwarfkicker said:
But if Guts is free of casualty/fate then he/his path is unable to be manipulated by the Idea of Evil. However, I think the Idea knows this so he manipulates those who are around him in order to directly affect him.

Think of this. He is not the ideas plan. Griffith is. He was a tool used by the idea.

But I wonder if Skullknight is going to lead Guts down the same path he walked so the two can work together against the Godhand and Idea. Guts could just as well be a tool for Skullknight as he was a tool of causality.

I kind of wondered that too while reading a "Is skullknight evil?" thread. It seems that so far, everything guts has done to serve skullknights purposes, but what are skullknights purposes? Maybe he has somthing more sinister then godshand in mind? Or hes somewhat like ganksha, and godshand is the only obsticle in his way? Even though he has stood against godshand for a 1000 years, his motives aren't clear still.

And, keeping guts and casulty in mind, maybe casulty is not all that inevitable as it seems? Maybe its like they have a choice, its just that the situation is set up, but not the persons ability to make a choice (Think of The Matrix or Minority Report). Like for example, griffith was givin the choice to either become godshand and sacrifice the BotH, or refuse. But of course he becomes godshand, chasing his dream for the price of the hawks. In guts case, time and time again guts was givin the choice to die, but he chose to live (think of being born in dead body, killing gambino, killing wolves, etc.). Thus, thats why he is a struggeler.
 

ShinHell9

I started on here when I was like 14...
We are never really told what Guts' fate is to be, it could be that he thinks he's going down a road against fate but really bieng led the whole time (much like soulreaver2) I say we need to just wait it out and see.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
DemonX said:
I kind of wondered that too while reading a "Is skullknight evil?" thread. It seems that so far, everything guts has done to serve skullknights purposes, but what are skullknights purposes? Maybe he has somthing more sinister then godshand in mind? Or hes somewhat like ganksha, and godshand is the only obsticle in his way? Even though he has stood against godshand for a 1000 years, his motives aren't clear still.

We know that he has animosity towards the Godhand. Given that, it shouldn't be to farfetched to think that Skullknight would want to mold Guts into his ally. Of course, if Skullknight's path is the same path Guts is walking right now, Guts will eventually lose those physical links that make him human. He's already lost some of it and it's only going to get worse over time unless something happens to reverse the affects of the armor. I really don't see Skullknight's intentions as being malicious towards Guts. He may be dehumanizing him in a sense, but I don't see him tossing him aside like a broken tool after Guts has fulfilled his purpose.

Regarding the second part of your post, Idea was feeding off of Guts and Griffith's desire to live and that's probably how she sets her pieces so things will move the way she hopes they will. Of course, Guts desire to live after the eclipse may not be one of the things she intended since he was supposed to be sacrificed along with the rest of the BoTH.
 

ShinHell9

I started on here when I was like 14...
Miyu said:
Of course, Guts desire to live after the eclipse may not be one of the things she intended since he was supposed to be sacrificed along with the rest of the BoTH.
The hard part is that you can't be too sure that his fate was to be sacrificed with the rest of the hawks. Ever since the beginning of his life it seems Gutsu has been so close to dying in almost every major battle, if that was his fate then it seems he's still going along that path. It is a possiblity that Gutsu was meant to be saved from the eclipse, he did protect Caska pretty much after the Eclipse, maybe that was his purpose. Maybe it's something more complex, or maybe he was meant to be sacrificed and found a loophole out.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
Good point. Though I think if Caska was pre-ordained to bear Griffith's vessel then the Godhand would have kept her alive. Of course, Guts' survival could very well be playing right into Idea's hand.
 

ShinHell9

I started on here when I was like 14...
Miyu said:
Good point. Though I think if Caska was pre-ordained to bear Griffith's vessel then the Godhand would have kept her alive. Of course, Guts' survival could very well be playing right into Idea's hand.
Thats why whenevr I speculate about fate my head starts to hurt like hell...theres too many possible outcomes to tell right now. More questions are rising and barely any have yet to be answered.
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
If Griffith were destined to be the Hawk of Light, the false savior to lead the world on the path Idea has so carefully crafted, then he would need an opposite number, a force of "darkness" that the people would fear and loathe.

Enter Guts.

Fastforward a little in the scheme; Femto will need a vessel to be reborn as a human. Femto cannot manifest his body outside of the Nexus, just as none of the other GH members can (a horde of rats, troll intestines, etc. are hardly ideal for making babies.) So a woman must be brought into the Nexus, preferrably an already-pregnant one, to be tainted by Femto's essence.

Enter Casca, being rescued time and again, only to be sacrificed at the Great Festival.

The problem remains in the basic bestial nature of most apostles and all undead. The see a sacrifice, they move in to feed. The mother of the vessel will need rescuing. She will also need protection.

Enter Skull Knight, on his mighty steed. Exeunt to Godo's mine, prepared centuries in advance for this exact purpose.

Personally, I can't see Guts pulling away from the fate causality has prepared him except by two means.

(1.) In defiance of scripture, he "the Hawk of Darkness" defeats the Hawk of Light (Griff)

(2.) He remains in Elfheim for the rest of his life, removing the HoD from the equation and causing people to scrutinize their "savior" closely.

It is possible that Casca has also outlived her destiny, having survived the Rebirth at Albion, but it may simply be that Idea has other uses for her.

This assumes alot. That's bad because it makes an ass of you and me.
 
Hey that's pretty good. Except for choice 2 with Guts staying in Elfhelm. He might consider it, even begin to do it, but ultimately he'll end up chasing revenge once again.
 
i think a combination of 1 and 2 would be cool,

he would stay in elfheim for a while,

calm down a bit, relax, see caska starting

to return to normal, then out of nowhere,

the very strategical mind of griffith will

have a group of apostles storm in using a

secret technique or something,

then guts goes super berserk and starts

destroying them, only to find he needs

more destruction to satisfy the beasts thirst

and when the elves, witches and what have you

try to calm him down cause all the apostles are dead,

blamo!!!!

he says "take that bitch!!" and slaughters most

of the beings in elfheim, thus he gets the name

"Dark Hawk", then he starts looking for Griffith

and says "fuck everything",

griffith says "wuh woa!!!!!",

then the final battle begins, a 10 vol bash-a-thon!!!!

wooooooooo!!!!

just optimistic thinkin ;D

- c
 
A 10 vol battle between Guts and Griffith. That would be fucking nuts.

Here's my take on what will happen with that:

Guts will get there and meet with the king. The king will tell Guts that he'll cure Caska. But there will be a catch. Something so good always has a catch. Guts will do what he's gotta do. The king will cure Caska. There will be some more down time. Inbetween downtime and Caska's curing it'll probably flash to Griffith finishing his battle with Ganishka. Guts will probably accept settling down with Caska at Elfhelm only to have their new home attacked by Griffith's army. And of course Griffith himself will lead the attack. An epic battle will take place and at the end of it all thoughts of settling down will be out of the question for Guts and he'll go back to chasing revenge. During the battle Guts will attempt to cross swords with Griffith but Grunbeld will get in his way looking to finish their battle. I'd say Zodd but he'll have his hands full with Skull Knight. Griffith and Caska will also come face to face at some point during this battle. And it's almost a guarantee that Guts' beast will take hold of him during the battle. I'm thinking Guts will kill Grunbeld at this point.

After the battle at Elfhelm and Guts continues to chase revenge we'll see him attempt to crash Griffith's crowning ceremony. Zodd will intercept Guts and they'll have one hell of a battle with Guts' inner beast taking hold of him once again, making the battle even more extreme. After this battle Guts will feel the need to learn how to surpress his inner beast.

I would say we will see Guts and Griffith fight after his battle with Zodd. It would be a good chance for Griffith to show what kind of powers he has. Guts battles Griffith. It appears even at first and at times it seems that Guts has the upper hand. But then he gets totally dominated by Griffith and his rage and hate just pours out causing, yes you guessed it, the beast gains control, this change takes Griffith off guard a bit and he gets slightly over whelmed but then shows off even more power and practically cripples Guts. The amount of pain he feels the armor can't even dull. Griffith spares his life inorder for him to see the change that the world will undergo.

The whole Griffith and Guts battle would be awsome but I have a feeling that that will happen and yet I also feel that it won't. I do think it would make for a hell of a turning point. Just like Griffith's return.

And after he loses to Griffith he'll realize that what Skull Knight said about needing to also be outside of the tale in order to touch the Hawk to be true. So Guts will go off on his own to master his inner beast and the story would focus on Guts' group as well as Griffith for a bit and it would pop back in on occasion to see Guts slaughter countless apostles.
 

ShinHell9

I started on here when I was like 14...
I say there should be an epic battle, then at the end Griffith gets a bass, Zoddo gets on drums, Gutsu plays guitar and sings, and rickert gets on keyboard. They play "Why Can't This Be Love" by Van Halen, now thats defying fate!
 
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