Religion in BERSERK

Kinda influenced of these links:
http://www.israelofgod.org/dealing.htm
http://www.evkingdom.org/art17dealing.htm
it stroke me this one:


Apostles are kinda the jews,
Midlanders are the christians
and Kushans perhaps the muslims
I am not very familiar with the legends of each religion
According to this "theory" would Zion be Albion and Windham castle Jerusaleem or vice-versa?
And that wise man 1000 years ago, would he be Jesus I guess?
Then the tower of Rebirth would it be Golgotha and the cave jesus was put to rest?

Oh, by the way, would Gaiserick be Nero  :eek: ?
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Old topic...



would Gaiserick be Nero

Well since when did Gaiserick burn his own empire down?

Apostles are kinda the jews,

...

And that wise man 1000 years ago, would he be Jesus I guess?

And if it was the wise man sacrificed the empire, wouldnt it make the christians the apostles?



I understand the overall point your trying to make, but i still fail to grasp it.
 
DemonX said:
...
I understand the overall point your trying to make, but i still fail to grasp it.

Read the links (then you will understand)
Apostles seem to be the jews  ;)

DemonX said:
And if it was the wise man sacrificed the empire, wouldnt it make the christians the apostles?

I was referring to religious titles (aka christians, jews...) in the means of followers

EDIT OOPS:
DemonX said:
Well since when did Gaiserick burn his own empire down?

just saw it, yeah, I was referring to Herod


From wikipedia:

Herod's cruelty
His cruelty was reflected in the account of the Massacre of the Innocents. When Jesus Christ was born, he was said to have ordered the slaughter of all children in Bethlehem under two years old. Herod was supposedly fearful of prophecies that said that a "King of the Jews" would be born in Bethlehem. This challenged his authority, and thus he ordered the crackdown to protect himself.

Herod is known for being a ruthless ruler, but he was also an able and far-sighted administrator who helped in building the economic might of Judaea, founding cities and developing agricultural projects, the most famous project involving rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
 
Seems kinda really far fetch'd to me.

It's pretty obvious that Midland is based on middle age europe since there's the crusaders and all so most of the people are christians.
And I'm sure everyone who wanted to compare Kushan's to the real world thought they most resemble the arabs/muslims.

I really don't understand how would apostoles be jews? Apostoles aren't a group they're all individuals so by your theory even some christians and muslims are jews too ???

I also don't understand what does Gaiserick have in common with Herod or Nero.
When did they tell that he killed all the under 2 year olds or something else that made you think that?
Also who's the wise man 1000 years ago in Berserk, someone in the God Hand now?
Jesus was the son of god and I'm pretty sure The Idea doesn't have any children.
 
hatu said:
since there's the crusaders and all so most of the people are christians.
Where have you seen the crusades in Berserk?


hatu said:
And I'm sure everyone who wanted to compare Kushan's to the real world thought they most resemble the arabs/muslims.
Yeah, this is what I wrote...where have you reading?

hatu said:
I really don't understand how would apostoles be jews? Apostoles aren't a group they're all individuals
Apostles are a group:
Does occultation and Griffith tell you anything?
Anyway, according to the jewish calendar every 216 years have an extra day (read the links)

hatu said:
so by your theory even some christians and muslims are jews too ???
What are you saying here?

hatu said:
I also don't understand what does Gaiserick have in common with Herod or Nero.
When did they tell that he killed all the under 2 year olds or something else that made you think that?
Also who's the wise man 1000 years ago in Berserk, someone in the God Hand now?
Herod, not Nero
And have you been reading the Berserk manga?
We don't know who the wise man exactly is, but we do know that he was tortured (to death?) and that there was a cataclysm
This is what we say also happened to Jesus
Also Herod built the tower of Jews...the temple of Rebirth was also built 1000 years ago in Berserk

hatu said:
Jesus was the son of god and I'm pretty sure The Idea doesn't have any children.
The speculation is on a more general level...I pretty doupt the wise man was named Jesus after all (for this reason my speculation does not make sense I guess ::))
Anyway Jesus is not the son of god for muslims and jews, I think (ain't sure about jews)
And besides we are all god's children, under these religions (except zionist jews again, which is established different for them, hence also the parallel with apostles in Berserk ;)
 
xechnao said:
Where have you seen the crusades in Berserk?
mozgus.gif
Is this a serious question?

xechnao said:
Apostles are a group:
Does occultation and Griffith tell you anything?
The most important thing in becoming an apostle is sacrificing someone you love. Do the jews sacrifice someone to become jews?

xechnao said:
Anyway, according to the jewish calendar every 216 years have an extra day (read the links)
Ok I checked it and it seems so but wouldn't that mean that the God Hand are jews? :p
That 216 years doesn't have anything to do with the apostles but a new God Hand is chosen every 216 years.
 
hatu said:
mozgus.gif
Is this a serious question?
It is a question on that statement of yours...you figure out

hatu said:
The most important thing in becoming an apostle is sacrificing someone you love. Do the jews sacrifice someone to become jews?

Jews originally had the sacrifices (nowadays jews of course not, but antic jews used the sacrifices)
They have been doing them also in their temple
The tower of rebirth was also filled with corpses of sacrificed people remember?

hatu said:
Ok I checked it and it seems so but wouldn't that mean that the God Hand are jews? :p
That 216 years doesn't have anything to do with the apostles but a new God Hand is chosen every 216 years.
It's not just the 216 or the jews, it's the whole picture of it
 
xechnao said:
Jews originally had the sacrifices

They were sacrificing animals...

And to me, the Kushans should be associated with Buddhism rather than with Islam. All the symbolism, especially the statues with multiple arms, looks at lot like bouddhist or hindouist stuff. And things like the Makara, for example, are clearly from hindouist mythology.
 
asmer said:
They were sacrificing animals...

Don't you know Abraham's and Isaac's story?

asmer said:
And to me, the Kushans should be associated with Buddhism rather than with Islam. All the symbolism, especially the statues with multiple arms, looks at lot like bouddhist or hindouist stuff. And things like the Makara, for example, are clearly from hindouist mythology.

In aspect I take it as a mix of Indu and Islam...although I don't know much about indu...
Indeed I mention Isalm because their point of reference is Griffith and the oracle...
Buddhism I believe is too far fetched
 
There is no human sacrifice in any branch of Judaism that I know of, past or current.

Similarites of Jews to Apostles

Jews have a covenant with God :: Apostles have some sort of covenant with God/Idea
Jews performed animal sacrifice :: Apostles become Apostles through sacrifice
Jews believe in the coming of a messiah (pronounciation, messh-ee-AH, not MESS-igh-AH) :: Some/most apostles follow Griffith, prince of Apostles


Differences

Jewish males are circumcised :: Apostles, not so much
Jews worship God :: Apostles worship no one
Judaism is a religion with rules :: Apostles have no rules to follow
Judaism prohibits human sacrifice :: Apostles require human sacrifice
Judaism does not recognize Christ as the messiah :: All apostles at least recognize Griffith as God Hand born into the world
Jews are not monstrous creatures with superhuman strength :: Apostles are



It is just not a feasible comparison in a lot of ways. Midlanders resemble Christians, yes, but that's because Midland is a fictional european-style medieval country.
The Kush are a real historical group of people, and they had a king named Ganishka. Though there is obviously some fictionalization going on (ie, the real Ganishka didn't invade 'midland' and didn't create a demon army using women as incubators for demon children), it makes more sense. The visual style of the Kush in Berserk is either eastern Arabian/Persian or Hindu, and there are definitely Hindu elements there. Ganishka, historically, was a Buddhist, but the Kush in Berserk are not as far as I can see.
 
Denial said:
There is no human sacrifice in any branch of Judaism that I know of, past or current.
Abraam and his son Isaac...God told him to sacrifice him
And Jews come from Phoenicians...Phoenicians are known to sacrifice humans


Denial said:
Judaism is a religion with rules :: Apostles have no rules to follow
Eat sacrifices...gather at the occultation...unite and follow their messiah Griffith

Denial said:
Judaism does not recognize Christ as the messiah :: All apostles at least recognize Griffith as God Hand born into the world
Who said that Griffith was Christ?
I said that the wise man 1000 years ago conected with the cataclysm might have a parallel with Christ


Denial said:
Jews are not monstrous creatures with superhuman strength :: Apostles are
You said it: there is obviously some fictionalization going on



Denial said:
It is just not a feasible comparison in a lot of ways.
But in a very lot it is...Jews are/were disperessed throught the world, yet they were considered themselves of the same part and different than others...same with apostles
The places: Albion, Tower of Rebirth :I will provide you parts from links to see how they are driven from the story of jews' temples



P.S. Jewish males are circumcised :: Apostles, not so much: Classic
 
The traditional interpretation of the Abraham & Isaac story is that it's a testing of Abraham's faith, not that God woke up one day and wanted a human sacrifice like the other pagan gods but then changed his mind. I'm sure there have been thousands of books written about it.

I think we need to be clear about what sort of Judaism we're talking about. Jews performed animal sacrifices only during the temple periods and before. The Pharisees of Jesus' time were a movement that transformed into Rabbinical Judaism after the destruction of the second temple. The establishment of the Rabbinical tradition forms the basis for modern Judaism, but what we think of as Judaism is quite different from Rabbinical Judaism, historically. What we think of today as "Ultra Orthodox" Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, was actually quite a revolutionary movement when it first appeared.

(Note to self: Zaddik)


If we're saying that the "wise man" of 1000 years ago was Christ, then what sort of Judaism are we talking about? The practice of offering sacrifices ended about 40-70 years after Jesus' death when the second temple was destroyed. I guess you could claim that the 1000 years of Berserk time is only 40-70 years in terms of real life history... But then, who are the Romans?
Of course, the most fundamental difference is the one that I mentioned before... Judaism is a very law-driven religion. There are 613+ commandments Jews have to follow, and an extremely large body of texts discussing the implications of those laws (ie, "Work is forbidden on the sabbath. Is it considered work to drag a chair across a field on the sabbath?). Apostles just do whatever they want.
 
Well obviouslt Berserk and reality has differences about Christians and muslims too...
What I see here are some generic similarities and parallels
For example God told to Abraam to sacrifice the most lovely thing to him, and Godhand tells demons to so too
Obviously jews, muslims and christians regard god's intention in good faith
Miura shows "god's" evil intentions and even yet, christians (midlanders) adore him
Apostles follow him too...remember how the egg apostle was speaking about the "angels"
About the various types of Judasim see what I said above: my spirit here is one of general similarities and paralels
And never did I thought that 1000 years in Berserk reflect 40-70 years in history because of the sacrifice time detail you mention...
And about laws and stuff you are still out of my point...besides on Abraam's times there were just the 10 comands, right?
About the roman question: in history romans have been from england to jerusaleem and 1000 years in Berserk there has been some big empire...hence the Romans...Perhaps its capital lied near where the Holy See is (Vatican-Rome) but we don't have any clues about that
I
 
xechnao said:
Abraam and his son Isaac...God told him to sacrifice him
And Jews come from Phoenicians...Phoenicians are known to sacrifice humans
Like Denial told it, Isaac's sacrifice was a test of Abraham's faith, it wasn't a part of the jewish religion... As for the Jews "coming from the Phoenicians"... you probably misread something. Phoenicians were living in today's Lebanon (and they invented "alphabet", just FYI), and today's lebanese are believed to descend from them, while the Jews are supposed to come from today's Iraq. That's 2 different peoples.

xechnao said:
Jews are/were disperessed throught the world, yet they were considered themselves of the same part and different than others...same with apostles
Apostles are only gathering now because their King want them to, to achieve a specific mission. I really don't think they have a strong feeling of being a part of a big family or anything... Yes they are dispersed but because they want to, each one comes from a certain place, and he stays there once he becomes an Apostle, they weren't forced to disperse throughout the world...
In fact, I can't think of people more selfish than an Apostle...
 
asmer said:
Like Denial told it, Isaac's sacrifice was a test of Abraham's faith, it wasn't a part of the jewish religion... As for the Jews "coming from the Phoenicians"... you probably misread something. Phoenicians were living in today's Lebanon (and they invented "alphabet", just FYI), and today's lebanese are believed to descend from them, while the Jews are supposed to come from today's Iraq. That's 2 different peoples.
Like I said above God asks Abraam to sacrifice his most dear thing...the parallel is there for me

asmer said:
Apostles are only gathering now because their King want them to, to achieve a specific mission. I really don't think they have a strong feeling of being a part of a big family or anything... Yes they are dispersed but because they want to, each one comes from a certain place, and he stays there once he becomes an Apostle, they weren't forced to disperse throughout the world...
In fact, I can't think of people more selfish than an Apostle...

Remember at Flora's house when they wanted to avenge their fallen "comrade" at Skullknight?
There is an image of unity IMO, even if it is superficial
Remember when Sonja took Mule through the forest, being in their getto feeding from the same corpse?
And out of the record:
why are you only stack to the Jews-apostles matter
Mine was a generic parallel that tries to hold all the facts in Berserk's story that seem to come out from history IN A WAY
About the Empire (roman), the wise man, the emperor, the temples, the religious followers
I don't want to discuss more against this...just see if it can be further expanded
For example I see that Guts has a lot to do with Saint George
Flora's tree house, Flora and Skullknight with Eden, Eva and Adam-Saint Michael (in some legends it is about the same person)
Anyway...let's see what we can do first to figure similarities out of this instead of trying to fend it off first place
 
xechnao said:
Like I said above God asks Abraam to sacrifice his most dear thing...the parallel is there for me
That I understand, but for me it's a bit "light" for a parallel. God asked him to give back something he had given him, to test his faith, and in the end the sacrifice didn't even occur. That's a bit "light" to state that "Jews originally had the sacrifices", that's the only thing I meant.

xechnao said:
Remember at Flora's house when they wanted to avenge their fallen "comrade" at Skullknight?
There is an image of unity IMO, even if it is superficial
Remember when Sonja took Mule through the forest, being in their getto feeding from the same corpse?
For me, they were looking for an opportunity to fight, that's all. I remember one even said to Grunbeld that they should help him, since he seemed in trouble (as if a common Apostle could really HELP Grunbeld...). And we can see Zodd kill another Apostle with no hesitation, too, that's not a very friendly behavior! :p
This image of solidarity or unity, IMO, is due to the special context of Griffith's Rebirth, but normally, I don't think Apostles have a strong sense of belonging to the same "family". They are selfish "monsters", only wanting to fulfill their own desire, they don't have a common goal, or a common Apostle-consciousness...

xechnao said:
And out of the record:
why are you only stack to the Jews-apostles matter
Mine was a generic parallel that tries to hold all the facts in Berserk's story that seem to come out from history IN A WAY
I insisted on the Jews-Apostles point it's true, 'cause you said some "weird" things to justify your point, I guess.
As for me, the generic comparison I don't agree with! I guess it's hard enough for a mangaka to create its own Universe, its own monsters, etc. So it's a normal thing to use historical facts, but only the graphic aspect, not the meaning (don't know if I'm clear... :-\) of it. But it's not because the armor looks like Roman Empire style armors that there is a comparison to be made between the events in BERSERK and in the real world, the real history.
It's the same thing as the Holy See / Vatican polemic. It looks like the Vatican History, but it's not...
And to me, the Kushans really DON'T look like Arabs, at all! Their graphic aspect is bouddhist, or hindousit. Not muslim, but again it's only my opinion!
 
asmer said:
I guess it's hard enough for a mangaka to create its own Universe, its own monsters, etc. So it's a normal thing to use historical facts,

This is the point of this thread...
Everybody knows jews are not supernatural monsters in the real world and the in the bible

asmer said:
but only the graphic aspect, not the meaning (don't know if I'm clear... :-\) of it.
The meaning of something graphical (aka manga, naration of a story) lies on what it is depicted...
Other than that it's personal
And I don't believe anybody really needs any clarifications about the meaning to understand it...
 
xechnao said:
This is the point of this thread...
Everybody knows jews are not supernatural monsters in the real world and the in the bible
Everybody knows that Jews come from Phoenicians, too, I guess...

xechnao said:
The meaning of something graphical (aka manga, naration of a story) lies on what it is depicted...
Other than that it's personal
And I don't believe anybody really needs any clarifications about the meaning to understand it...
I really don't understand ANYTHING about what you mean there... Sometimes, in fictional works, things have a meaning only in the context of this particular work. And even if they look like things that happened in the real world, in real history, there is no comparison to look for...
 
asmer said:
Everybody knows that Jews come from Phoenicians, too, I guess...
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

...many things attributed to Phoenicians might easily have been due rather to the activities of coastal maritime Israelite tribes like Dan. On the other side of the fence is the idea that the Philistines had an important role to play thereby connecting them with the Sea Peoples.

Check out the "Dan" and "Israelite" links...

asmer said:
I really don't understand ANYTHING about what you mean there...

No big deal...
Just don't remain focused on some details
It does not make good sense in this thread which tries to have a more generic aspect

PS If you really don't like or agree with this thread on the basis of comparing Berserk with other real and also fictional sources (aka the bible) there is no need to partecipate
 
xechnao said:
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia
Thanks, but I do not really need Wikipedia to know that Hebrews and Phoenicians are 2 different peoples.
If you want to say that since they were neighbors, each people probably influenced the other, that's true, but I will maintain (which is ON TOPIC I hope) that human sacrifices never were part of the jewish religion.

xechnao said:
No big deal...
Just don't remain focused on some details
It does not make good sense in this thread which tries to have a more generic aspect
You're right, but I think I explained why this generic comparison doesn't seem right to me. You made a parallel between Kushans and the Muslims. I say I think it's a bit weird for a comparison.
There was, in historical facts, a real people called the Kushans (you can check Wikipedia if you want), and their more famous leader was called... Kanishka. He was a man whose origins are not clearly defined, and he was the protector of Buddhism! So I think it's not too far-fetched to say the generic source of inspiration for the Kushans may be... the Kushans.
But on the other hand, if you take the Makara, it is related to hinduist mythology. Furthermore, in BERSERK, this creature is nothing like the "mount [...] of Varuna god of wind", it is just a Familiar created by Diva, or Ganishka.
That is why I personally had say that Mr Miura was influenced by all of that, without forgetting the influence of medieval Europe's history, but that in the context of his manga, I am not sure you should dig too much to find the influence of christian tradition, for example, in the events occuring in BERSERK! And it was said on this Board too, that the structure of the BERSERK world may be influenced by Plato's vision of the real world, and I don't think this greek philosopher has anything to do with jewish or christian religions.

xechnao said:
PS If you really don't like or agree with this thread on the basis of comparing Berserk with other real and also fictional sources (aka the bible) there is no need to partecipate
It's not that I don't agree with the idea of making a thread about this topic, it's just that I don't agree with your conclusions on the matter. I think trying to find the sources of Mr Miura's inspiration for BERSERK is really interesting, but to me, some things seem to be there only for their graphic aspect, not for their inner meaning (once again I don't know if that's very clear...)! But, again, that's just my point of view, I guess I may be totally wrong! ::)
 
asmer said:
Thanks, but I do not really need Wikipedia to know that Hebrews and Phoenicians are 2 different peoples.
If you want to say that since they were neighbors, each people probably influenced the other, that's true, but I will maintain (which is ON TOPIC I hope) that human sacrifices never were part of the jewish religion.

There have been a lot of different traditions throught people groups' but you cannot exactly stabilize who was who at times so remote where you are based on limited archeological clues...
Most of it are theories or canons modern people groups choose to adopt
If you don't regard archeology through this later aspect and you are more objective you have to be elastic enough to not be absolute where you have no proof...and just deal with your clues
What archeologists say is that there have been human sacrifices at that region at that time...
And as history evolves and I am not sure who you consider jew at each time (this mostly has to do with the canons modern people groups have adopted) honestly I believe you are not telling me a lot over here...
If in Berserk there is a graphical influence from outer sources (and there is since its something WE find interesting) about the group of apostles, jews come to my mind as the first thing
Not because Apostles are supernatural but because of the whole group thing which is that they can be everywhere in the world but that they are different from everybody else except from the other apostles...And of course you cannot be apostle if you like it, aka not anybody can be apostle but only the chosen ones (gods chosen ones)
They obey and follow the same "god" or mesiah...where there is also a different relation with him than the one he has with the rest of the people
Plus Abraam was asked by God to sacrifice his son (most dear thing to him) plus that they have been doing sacrifices in the name of god, be it mostly animal or whatever, I don't care-it's only a detail compared to the rest


asmer said:
There was, in historical facts, a real people called the Kushans (you can check Wikipedia if you want), and their more famous leader was called... Kanishka. He was a man whose origins are not clearly defined, and he was the protector of Buddhism!
Yes, but we are also talking about graphical influences?

asmer said:
Makara, it is related to hinduist mythology. Furthermore, in BERSERK, this creature is nothing like the "mount [...] of Varuna god of wind", it is just a Familiar created by Diva, or Ganishka.
Yes, I agree...Actually I said Kushans in Berserk have Hindu graphical aspects...but as far as the story goes to me historically come close to a group which fought around Jerusaleem...most propably muslims...Remember also that Ganishka in Berserk is an Emperor and perhaps has various groups under his command...
I want to check out about Jerusaleems story more to see if there is something more related

asmer said:
That is why I personally had say that Mr Miura was influenced by all of that, without forgetting the influence of medieval Europe's history, but that in the context of his manga, I am not sure you should dig too much to find the influence of christian tradition, for example, in the events occuring in BERSERK!
I am not digging to find about christian tradition's influences but about everything that has influenced Miura (historical facts, legends, traditions)

asmer said:
And it was said on this Board too, that the structure of the BERSERK world may be influenced by Plato's vision of the real world, and I don't think this greek philosopher has anything to do with jewish or christian religions.

It could have to do as much as Godhand or Midlander's religion have to do with it

asmer said:
but to me, some things seem to be there only for their graphic aspect, not for their inner meaning (once again I don't know if that's very clear...)!

It's not very clear to me...
What do you mean inner meaning?
 
asmer said:
They were sacrificing animals...

And to me, the Kushans should be associated with Buddhism rather than with Islam. All the symbolism, especially the statues with multiple arms, looks at lot like bouddhist or hindouist stuff. And things like the Makara, for example, are clearly from hindouist mythology.

agreed.. anyway its a hodgepodge of religions... influences not references
 
xechnao said:
There have been a lot of different traditions throught people groups' but you cannot exactly stabilize who was who at times so remote where you are based on limited archeological clues...
Most of it are theories or canons modern people groups choose to adopt
If you don't regard archeology through this later aspect and you are more objective you have to be elastic enough to not be absolute where you have no proof...and just deal with your clues
What archeologists say is that there have been human sacrifices at that region at that time...
And as history evolves and I am not sure who you consider jew at each time (this mostly has to do with the canons modern people groups have adopted) honestly I believe you are not telling me a lot over here...
That is totally true, yes, nothing is for sure about what happened like 3000 years ago in this region. But Phoenicians, as well as Hebrews, are well known enough for me to say that these 2 peoples are not the same... Not the same language, for example.
But you are right, too, about human sacrifices, but it's precisely what the jewish religion was fighting, "Molek's cult" or something like that, and I wouldn't say that no jew ever practiced that, but I am saying that it's not a part of the jewish religion.

xechnao said:
If in Berserk there is a graphical influence from outer sources (and there is since its something WE find interesting) about the group of apostles, jews come to my mind as the first thing
Not because Apostles are supernatural but because of the whole group thing which is that they can be everywhere in the world but that they are different from everybody else except from the other apostles...And of course you cannot be apostle if you like it, aka not anybody can be apostle but only the chosen ones (gods chosen ones)
They obey and follow the same "god" or mesiah...where there is also a different relation with him than the one he has with the rest of the people
Plus Abraam was asked by God to sacrifice his son (most dear thing to him) plus that they have been doing sacrifices in the name of god, be it mostly animal or whatever, I don't care-it's only a detail compared to the rest
Well, first, an Apostle is not born Apostle, he has to become one. Plus, to do so, he has to sacrifice something dear to him. Once again, you say it's not important if Jews used to sacrifices animals or human babies... I would say that it seems to me 2 different things, sacrificing a goat or I don't know what that was probably raised to be sacrificed, AND sacrificing your loved one, your best friend or your father... it's a bit different!
You say Apostles follow Griffith as their messiah, I see it more like they HAVE to do it, since it's their boss, but I don't think (I may be wrong...) they were anxiously waiting for him... Their real goal is for each of them, independantly of the others, to fulfill its own desires. You see Apostles as a team, a family, when me, I just see them as a group of persons, with not that much solidarity, or common consciousness...

xechnao said:
Yes, but we are also talking about graphical influences?
I was, but I felt that you were talking about possible influences of this graphical details in the future scenario of BERSERK!?...

xechnao said:
Yes, I agree...Actually I said Kushans in Berserk have Hindu graphical aspects...but as far as the story goes to me historically come close to a group which fought around Jerusaleem...most propably muslims...Remember also that Ganishka in Berserk is an Emperor and perhaps has various groups under his command...
I want to check out about Jerusaleems story more to see if there is something more related
I think the Mongols, under Ghenghis Khan's lead, did fight in the Middle East, as well as in Europe. And (found that on a website... :p) "in terms of square miles conquered, Genghis Khan had been the greatest conqueror of all time", his empire was bigger than the one of Alexander the Great! Well, I'm not saying the Kushans are Mongols, but geographically and culturally, they are probably quite 2 similar people?!
Anyway, to me, the Kushans (in BERSERK) really do not resemble Muslims in any way!

xechnao said:
I am not digging to find about christian tradition's influences but about everything that has influenced Miura (historical facts, legends, traditions)
Excuse me then, but I thought that's what you were trying to demonstrate!

xechnao said:
It could have to do as much as Godhand or Midlander's religion have to do with it
It may, or it may not. I just think there is too many different influences in BERSERK to look in only one way (here the biblical aspect) to try and find possible coming events "at the light" of real events, real traditions that occured in our real world.

xechnao said:
It's not very clear to me...
What do you mean inner meaning?
Well, for example if you take the Makara, Mr Miura only took the aspect and the name of an existing monster (ie its graphic aspect), but in BERSERK, it was nothing related to the hindu God of Wind (ie its "inner meaning"), it was only a Familiar crated from a whale.
 
asmer said:
... Not the same language, for example.
Phoenicians had a semitic language...there were various dialects but as I said this stuff are too much detail in respect to a more general image

asmer said:
but it's precisely what the jewish religion was fighting, "Molek's cult" or something like that, and I wouldn't say that no jew ever practiced that, but I am saying that it's not a part of the jewish religion.
Jewish religion: Again, I have to say you can't canon things like that especially when you are talking about the past...it doesn't make sense...in jewish history whereabouts you find lots of events, descriptions or evolutions...you seem like you want to be to be the champion of one...don't reply back please more of the same...I have seen what you are trying to say but I don't agree here...it is just out of the sense of this thread, too much for it I would say

asmer said:
Well, first, an Apostle is not born Apostle, he has to become one. Plus, to do so, he has to sacrifice something dear to him. Once again, you say it's not important if Jews used to sacrifices animals or human babies... I would say that it seems to me 2 different things, sacrificing a goat or I don't know what that was probably raised to be sacrificed, AND sacrificing your loved one, your best friend or your father... it's a bit different!

Speaking of the general image what are you talking about here could be seen just as the twists in Berserk to fit its dark and supernatural fiction...
But again we have been talking about this all along and it's tiring the thread...Please don't go on...if you fail to see the general picture I am talking about it is fair enough...

asmer said:
You say Apostles follow Griffith as their messiah, I see it more like they HAVE to do it, since it's their boss, but I don't think (I may be wrong...) they were anxiously waiting for him... Their real goal is for each of them, independantly of the others, to fulfill its own desires. You see Apostles as a team, a family, when me, I just see them as a group of persons, with not that much solidarity, or common consciousness...

Remember what Zodd said back then to Wyald? Remember also what Ganishka said regarding the apostles and Griffith
And besides for the followers their "messiah" is their ultimate boss, ain't it? (especially if he could really exist along with them)  ;D
Again though this argue shouldn't be analized here...it's out of the scope of this thread (too much a little point for it)

asmer said:
I think the Mongols, under Ghenghis Khan's lead, did fight in the Middle East, as well as in Europe. And (found that on a website... :p) "in terms of square miles conquered, Genghis Khan had been the greatest conqueror of all time", his empire was bigger than the one of Alexander the Great! Well, I'm not saying the Kushans are Mongols, but geographically and culturally, they are probably quite 2 similar people?!
Anyway, to me, the Kushans (in BERSERK) really do not resemble Muslims in any way!
I still need to check this one out


asmer said:
It may, or it may not. I just think there is too many different influences in BERSERK to look in only one way (here the biblical aspect) to try and find possible coming events "at the light" of real events, real traditions that occured in our real world.
If we find out the influences we could better describe berserk IMO, for example to a person who hasn't read it yet instead of giving him the story
It ain't sure we will, but we are trying...this is the scope of this thread

asmer said:
Well, for example if you take the Makara, Mr Miura only took the aspect and the name of an existing monster (ie its graphic aspect), but in BERSERK, it was nothing related to the hindu God of Wind (ie its "inner meaning"), it was only a Familiar crated from a whale.

Of course, Berserk does not drive its influences directly from one canon (see religion adopted by a group of people) but tries to mix them all together, in one world that could be the one explaining from where the various people have made their canons from...
I believe this is it the way Miura is dealing with it...in Bersek Flora's model and the idea or Godhand have to do with the whole world, being behind each different religion, legend or "miracle"
 
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