Slan's Past

Dorn · July 11, 2005

First let me congratulate you all for the great community and overall berserk info!

I ve been looking through your threads here at character discussion and it seems no one ever considered the Slan's past possibility I come to speak of..

It seems kinda clear to my eyes that Slan is the nun on page 110 volume 18.. If you cant recall it that page show Lord Mozgus speaking about a holy woman who lived in ancient times that helped the poor and so on. What makes me think that it was Slan on her mortal days is:

- Because its a woman (duh!)

- The fact she seems to be a nun. All people that fall to the evil side so far were quite good intentioned before something awfully tragic happened to them. ex: The Count, Griffith, Roshinu.. etc.

- Ancient times reference (slan lived a long while ago).

- Because Mozgus tale seems a little out of the blue.. There doesnt seems to be important connection between the tale and Farnese's doubt.

- Because EVERY historical reference of the berserk world has been major in understanding Berserk universe. Example: Charlotte/Judeau tale about the Tower of Rebirth/Gaiseric.

- And most important of all... We cant see her face, it is covered by shadow/light. We can clearly see the features of the persons she is taking care of but not herself. To me this means that it is a character currently present on Berserk world and Miura is trying to hide her identity.

Nonsense? Maybe right? Opinions please :)

Aazealh · July 11, 2005

Dorn said:
First let me congratulate you all for the great community and overall berserk info!

Hey Dorn, welcome and thanks for the congratulations. :) My thoughts on your idea:

Dorn said:
It seems kinda clear to my eyes that Slan is the nun on page 110 volume 18..

Well, I don't really see how it's supposed to be clear to be honest.

Dorn said:
Because its a woman (duh!)

Duh, indeed.

Dorn said:
The fact she seems to be a nun.

Who seems to be a nun? The "holy woman" Mozgus speaks off? Probably yeah. Slan? I'd like to know what in her character could possibly lead someone to assume that she was a nun (or anything else for that matter, we don't have any information about her). I don't see the connexion here, see below.

Dorn said:
All people that fall to the evil side so far were quite good intentioned before something awfully tragic happened to them. ex: The Count, Griffith, Roshinu.. etc.

Well that's really very relative... I wouldn't say that Griffith was good intentioned for example, he just cared about his dream. Rochine was a kid, and yeah, the Count wasn't a bad lord to his subjects. Now how does this apply to people like the Snake Baron, Wyald, or Ganishka? Do you really think they were all good-willed before their sacrifices? Not even mentioning the hundreds of random man-eating apostles out there.

Some of the major apostles Guts fought had a tragic backstory adding a dramatic effect to the whole thing, but that doesn't mean that they all are the same. Also, not being "evil guys" doesn't automatically make them good samaritans.

Dorn said:
Ancient times reference (slan lived a long while ago).

Yeah but again, that doesn't prove anything at all. A lot of people lived "a long time ago"... And Slan supposedly can't be older than 864 years old (and most probably less than that), so it really depends on what you consider to be "ancient times".

Dorn said:
Because Mozgus tale seems a little out of the blue.. There doesnt seems to be important connection between the tale and Farnese's doubt.

It's an example of the kind of hardship one dedicated to God can encounter, i.e. people being ungrateful and showing disdain. His point was to never doubt and lose faith, and I think it relates well enough to Farnese' interrogations (from Mozgus' point of view at least).

Dorn said:
Because EVERY historical reference of the berserk world has been major in understanding Berserk universe. Example: Charlotte/Judeau tale about the Tower of Rebirth/Gaiseric.

And some vague story about an unknown woman helping poor people is a historical reference that can be compared to the destruction of Gaiseric's empire?

Dorn said:
And most important of all... We cant see her face, it is covered by shadow/light. We can clearly see the features of the persons she is taking care of but not herself.

We can't see the face of the man agonizing in her arms in the lower panel, it's also shadowed, and in the upper panel, 2 faces are indistinct too (like hers). I don't really see how this is supposed to prove anything...

Dorn said:
To me this means that it is a character currently present on Berserk world and Miura is trying to hide her identity.

I think it just means that she was an anonymous "holy woman" in a tale. The whole event is far too anecdotic to be foreshadowing to me.

Dorn · July 11, 2005

Yeah I was in doubt about either to put this in the character cove or speculation nation section, since its highly speculative.

Although, should we hear anything more about this nun in further volumes.. I think it would then be clear.

Aazealh · July 11, 2005

Dorn said:
Yeah I was in doubt about either to put this in the character cove or speculation nation section, since its highly speculative.

Good remark, I'll move it. ;D

Dorn said:
Although, should we hear anything more about this nun in further volumes.. I think it would then be clear.

Yeah, if that very same person were to be mentioned again it would be unusual enough to warrant some speculation about a possibly important role in the story. However without some serious hint I still wouldn't give it too much credit.

xechnao · July 11, 2005

I like the idea of Slan being an ex-nun -I think it fits.
Perhaps she was an extremely faithfull nun that among other things she had to stay away from seX because of her faith.
Somebody raped her eventually -she was very beautifull btw- and it happened that she took pleasue. This offense to her faith stained her consciousness so much that she went on to cut her wrists.
Then the beherit jiggled and she rose to demonhood as Slan.

Aazealh · July 11, 2005

xechnao said:
I like the idea of Slan being an ex-nun -I think it fits.
Perhaps...

Great fan fiction there, but Dorn was trying to point out a genuine connection with some elements we have in the manga, it wasn't just wild speculation (something that you appear to be fond of :-*). She could have been a whole lot of things, from a queen to a prostitute, but there's just nothing really hinting at any of these possibilities in particular...

So yeah, why not a nun, but why not a lot of other hypotheses? As usual with Miura, we'll have to wait to get a definite answer.

xechnao · July 11, 2005

Aazealh said:
Great fan fiction there

Thanks!

Aazealh said:
but (something that you appear to be fond of).

I mostly make "conections" in my speculations too. In this case, I tried to develop on the fallout of Dorn's speculation, which it stroke me as a plausible possibililty.

Aazealh said:
She could have been a whole lot of things, from a queen to a prostitute, but there's just nothing really hinting at any of these possibilities in particular...

We know that she acts as a nympho -this is her #1 identity characteristic. We also know that she has been through a tragic event.
Why should a nympho queen have to face a tragic event referring on this identity, is even beyond any fiction creativity.
And prostitutes aren't nymphos by ambition. But even if Slan were one of a kind the same problem remains. How do you conect Slan with this. What would a nympho prostitute have to sacrifice as a nymphomaniac prostitute?

Besides, the subject about forbidden desire is not something so unknown or original- especially around nuns.

And desire btw, is a fondamental point of Berserk.

Aazealh · July 11, 2005

xechnao said:
We also know that she has been through a tragic event.

We suppose she has been through one or several. Albeit it being most probable, I wouldn't put too much confidence in this assumption.

xechnao said:
Why should a nympho queen have to face a tragic event referring on this identity, is even beyond any fiction creativity.

Well lots of things are "beyond fiction creativity", like a lone fighter with a big sword or an ambitious young man dreaming about being a king...

xechnao said:
And prostitutes aren't nymphos by ambition.

Prostitutes normally aren't nymphomaniacs at all actually, they just get paid to have sex.

xechnao said:
How do you conect Slan with this. What would a nympho prostitute have to sacrifice as a nymphomaniac prostitute?

You tell me what would a nymphomaniac nun trying to kill herself have to sacrifice, I'm not the one advancing hypotheses here. ;)

xechnao said:
Besides, the subject about forbidden desire is not something so unknown or original- especially around nuns.

Yeah, it's like you know, "beyond any fiction creativity". ;)

xechnao said:
And desire btw, is a fondamental point of Berserk.

Nothing new.

xechnao · July 11, 2005

Aazealh said:
We suppose she has been through one or several. Albeit it being most probable, I wouldn't put too much confidence in this assumption.

I think that beherits get activated by stuff like that. I am pretty confident.

Aazealh said:
Well lots of things are "beyond fiction creativity", like a lone fighter with a big sword or an ambitious young man dreaming about being a king...

I don't think your point as a counter-point really stands.
On the contrary, these things are pretty developable around. Fables, tales and fantasy are made of this stuff. How about Berserk? How about Elric? How about conan? How about dragonheart? How about...well you get the point.
It's not that hard you know...ask Walter who has some good talent. I think he would have no problem developing you a story about a guy with a big sword (or even a dragon) and another one who wanted to be a king.

Aazealh said:
Prostitutes normally aren't nymphomaniacs at all actually, they just get paid to have sex.

Indeed, I had initially written exactly this one in my answer. I changed it to have an even more moderate approach.

Aazealh said:
You tell me what would a nymphomaniac nun trying to kill herself have to sacrifice, I'm not the one advancing hypotheses here. ;)

Is it really that hard? A nun like the one I described first place could sacrifice anything important to her regarding her religion. It could be her flock, it could be any people, it could be the people she was taking care of if she was offering such a religious service. It could even be her "sisters" or "brothers" or all of the above. Depends on the religion and we can have such a big repertoire to choose.

Aazealh said:
Yeah, it's like you know, "beyond any fiction creativity". ;)

Sorry, I am not really sure I get what you want to say me. Are you saying that the subject around nuns and sex in fiction is something new to you ?

Aazealh · July 11, 2005

xechnao said:
I think that beherits get activated by stuff like that. I am pretty confident.

Not by just "a tragic event", no. In my opinion it's mostly a matter of emotional despair and anguish, which can result from a lot of things (the Count's beherit called the God Hand because he was about to die, plain and simple). Maybe that's what you meant by tragic event, just the fact that she had to sacrifice something, my point is that her life doesn't necessarily have to follow the all-perfectly-happy-life-then-horrible-tragedy scenario point by point, it wouldn't exactly be original. In anycase we don't have a lot of certitudes about this.

xechnao said:
I don't think your point as a counter-point really stands.

Well that's not really a problem, since your point didn't really stand in the first place, hence my reply... And you seem to be totally missing the point in question. It's like if to you, Slan could have only been a nun and nothing else in her pre-God Hand life, while we basically have no information about this at all.

xechnao said:
Is it really that hard? A nun like the one I described first place could sacrifice anything important to her regarding her religion.

Yeah, but how is that more credible than any other hypothesis? That's what I was asking you in the first place (and that was just a rhetorical question). It's a possibility among others, nothing more.

xechnao said:
Sorry, I am not really sure I get what you want to say me. Are you saying that the subject around nuns and sex in fiction is something new to you ?

Ugh. I'm saying that your argument about a "nympho queen" being beyond fictional creativity (which I don't consider to be valid at all, then again I'm not even sure about what you're trying to say) applies to your own ideas, nothing more. You just seem to be partial toward your own surmises as always, and I'm pointing it out.

That being said, I'm not planning to have another trollish discussion with you xech, so if you could you know, just spare us both the time, that would be great.

xechnao · July 11, 2005

Aazealh said:
Not by just "a tragic event", no. In my opinion it's mostly a matter of emotional despair and anguish, which can result from a lot of things (the Count's beherit called the God Hand because he was about to die, plain and simple). Maybe that's what you meant by tragic event, just the fact that she had to sacrifice something, my point is that her life doesn't necessarily have to follow the all-perfectly-happy-life-then-horrible-tragedy scenario point by point, it wouldn't exactly be original.

Yes, it's what I meant first place. Something tragic emotionally, let's say.

Aazealh said:
Well that's not really a problem, since your point didn't really stand in the first place, hence my reply... And you seem to be totally missing the point in question. It's like if to you, Slan could have only been a nun and nothing else in her pre-God Hand life, while we basically have no information about this at all.

My point first place standed as a point of plausibility among three possibilities we talked about.
And there is no point in question I am missing really. I just find plausible the possibilty of her being a nun before sacrificing to the Godhand- this doesn't mean I said that this is the only thing she has necessarily ever been in her pro GH life.

Aazealh said:
Yeah, but how is that more credible than any other hypothesis? That's what I was asking you in the first place (and that was just a rhetorical question). It's a possibility among others, nothing more.

It is more plausible to me than some other possibilities. If you have a more plausible one you should present it here.

Aazealh said:
Ugh. I'm saying that your argument about a "nympho queen" being beyond fictional creativity (which I don't consider to be valid at all, then again I'm not even sure about what you're trying to say) applies to your own ideas, nothing more. You just seem to be partial toward your own surmises as always, and I'm pointing it out.

Well, I was creative enough about the hows and whys -it's in my first paragraph/post in this thread. Something that I would have trouble coming with for some different hypothesis. This is why I said that I could see that a nun could fit for a past for Slan pretty well.

Aazealh said:
That being said, I'm not planning to have another trollish discussion with you xech, so if you could you know, just spare us both the time, that would be great.

All I am trying to do is make you see my points. Mind you, I see yours, which are that this speculation has nothing actually stated in the manga to be its' basis and thus there could be equally any other imaginable possibility about this.
What I am saying is, try to imagine actually and come with the convincing stories you can, regarding the way it would fit in the manga.
I think the nun is a conving one. Right now, I can't think of anything else plausible and perhaps never will. But I can think of many which would not be plausible, of course.

Aazealh · July 11, 2005

xechnao said:
My point first place standed as a point of plausibility among three possibilities we talked about.

Yeah, and that was really just your opinion, though you stated it like it was a fact. I also didn't restrict the field of possibilities to the 2 examples I gave, they were just two extremes to show how varied the choices are.

xechnao said:
this doesn't mean I said that this is the only thing she has necessarily ever been in her pro GH life.

No but you were inferring that it's more likely than other possibilities while nothing hints at it. It's really just what I was telling you...

xechnao said:
It is more plausible to me than some other possibilities. If you have a more plausible one you should present it here. [...] Something that I would have trouble coming with for some different hypothesis.

Here we go, maybe it's just the way you word your opinions that gets us to argue. Problem is that if things aren't plausible to you, I have a feeling that no matter what people will say, it won't change. It's really just a matter of imagination, as I don't see how one scenario is harder to come up with than another. Plus the man writing the story has eventually more creativity than both you and me combined, and he hasn't exactly been sticking to common themes until now...

So yeah, what do you want? A story about a queen for example? Sure thing, a princess born in a pleasant country were arts were privileged over war, sold by her parents to a warlord in order to ensure peace, devoting her life to the people she had become the queen of and raising her children as well as orphans from the vast kingdom always at war. The king was hardly there and when he was he often prefered his concubines to her company. Until one day where he became crazy and killed all the kids for some reason. TADA! Written in roughly a minute, and let me guess, you like your idea more. ;)

Anyway Fishbomb wrote a fanfiction about Slan living in a monastery a long time ago, if you want to check it, click here.

xechnao said:
What I am saying is, try to imagine actually and come with the convincing stories you can, regarding the way it would fit in the manga.

I'm sure you'll understand that inventing stories in order to try to convince you doesn't sound very appealing to me. I replied to Dorn and I don't feel like participating in the degeneration of this thread any further.

xechnao said:
I think the nun is a conving one. Right now, I can't think of anything else plausible and perhaps never will. But I can think of many which would not be plausible, of course.

Well it's all good really, we're all entitled to our opinions in the end. I'm sure you'll get to think of another plausible story in the end though, if only when Miura reveals us a different one. ;D

xechnao · July 12, 2005

Aazealh said:
So yeah, what do you want? A story about a queen for example? Sure thing, a princess born in a pleasant country were arts were privileged over war, sold by her parents to a warlord in order to ensure peace, devoting her life to the people she had become the queen of and raising her children as well as orphans from the vast kingdom always at war. The king was hardly there and when he was he often prefered his concubines to her company. Until one day where he became crazy and killed all the kids for some reason. TADA! Written in roughly a minute, and let me guess, you like your idea more. ;)

Well it's all good really, we're all entitled to our opinions in the end. I'm sure you'll get to think of another plausible story in the end though, if only when Miura reveals us a different one. ;D

And why would the queen be a nymphomaniac in context with the other stuff? It ain't that plausible. See what I mean in this thread? It ain't that easy to come with a plausible past of Slan but this nun-monastery idea seems plausible enough.
Btw, it could be, as with Griffith, that GH members had to live with a peculiar -above normal- dedication to something, when they were humans - which made them seem notably determinate. Griffith was conditioned by a dream of a boy -religious zealous fits this very well too, IMO.
Then something comes and collapses everything about the character was. In this case, perhaps Slan's collapse was due to her being publically humiliated by her fellow "brothers".

Yet another possibility (always around sex and perhaps religion), that I have thought about in the past, is that Slan could have to do with a body of "heretics" or "practicticioners" like the ones we have seen in the cave or along with count's wife.
They could have caught her and she ends up sacrificing her own followers. I find the other idea much more interesting though.

Aazealh said:
Anyway Fishbomb wrote a fanfiction about Slan living in a monastery a long time ago, if you want to check it, click here.

So it comes to the same costitution even for Fishbomb, huh? ;D
Thanks for the link, btw she writes really well. I still haven't finished it though...

Aazealh · July 12, 2005

xechnao said:
And why would the queen be a nymphomaniac in context with the other stuff? It ain't that plausible.

Oh, I could include something along those lines pretty easily, just like I made up the rest without much trouble. And being a "nymphomaniac" isn't an obligation, really. She could just have had a trauma relating to sex that defined her identity late in her life or whatever, I don't think you're thinking the good way by trying to restrict a perimeter to what her life could have been like. For example, remember what Flora said about the Holy See slowly replacing the cult of various spirits in people's heart, we're not even sure the Holy See existed or was widely spread when Slan lived.

xechnao said:
See what I mean in this thread? It ain't that easy to come with a plausible past of Slan but this nun-monastery idea seems plausible enough.

Well it seems plausible enough to you. I'm not going to repeat what I said in my previous posts.

xechnao said:
So it comes to the same costitution even for Fishbomb, huh? ;D
Thanks for the link, btw she writes really well. I still haven't finished it though...

It's quite different from your own surmise as far as I remember, it's just built around religion. Guess the heretics idea came after reading her work, uh?

xechnao · July 12, 2005

Aazealh said:
Oh, I could include something along those lines pretty easily, just like I made up the rest without much trouble. And being a "nymphomaniac" isn't an obligation, really. She could just have had a trauma relating to sex that defined her identity late in her life or whatever, I don't think you're thinking the good way by trying to restrict a perimeter to what her life could have been like.

Well, for now I go on thinking the way I allready said. I really don't think this will be just a random stuff in the story.

Aazealh said:
For example, remember what Flora said about the Holy See slowly replacing the cult of various spirits in people's heart, we're not even sure the Holy See existed or was widely spread when Slan lived.

Well, I believe this kind of religion must at least have more than 500 years. Established costitutions and faiths having the magnitude of the Holy See would have needed some time to develop to that level.

Aazealh said:
Well it seems plausible enough to you. I'm not going to repeat what I said in my previous posts.

Of course, and this is why and what I have posted first place and I' ve also tried to explain it. Just as a possibility. Let me ask you now if this is a problem to you.
I mean, what I still don't get, is why are you criticizing my post. Shouldn't people post their speculations over here?

Aazealh said:
Guess the heretics idea came after reading her work, uh?

Nope, I actually got that idea while posting in this thread and I still haven't read such a part at Fishbombs story. I have had a quick and not clear look reading random parts of her story and started actually reading the first chapter. Btw, it's a kind of an idea very near the one I originally posted. Once your mind goes to the religion-sex conection about Slan, well these ideas come naturally.

Aazealh · July 12, 2005

xechnao said:
Just as a possibility. Let me ask you now if this is a problem to you.
I mean, what I still don't get, is why are you criticizing my post. Shouldn't people post their speculations over here?

I'm criticizing the way you have to deem some things plausible or possible and others not without providing any kind of factual information, while then proceeding to drown any opposition you might encounter in a sea of mostly irrelevant and disputable arguments. You don't present your ideas as possibilities among others, but as the only conceivable hypotheses. And it never looks like you're just speculating and giving your 2 cents on the matter either, rather that you're bringing incontestable hard facts and deducing the real truth from them, which isn't the case. As I said already, it might just be the way you word your opinions, but in any case it should change if you ever hope to start a discussion that doesn't end just disgusting other people.

Let me ask why did you have to argue with me when I said that Slan's past life was open to a lot of possibilities? I didn't say your hypothesis was wrong, just that it certainly isn't more likely than any other if we go by the concrete informations we have about Slan. You're just not accepting this from the beginning, and none of what you said stands as a justification, it's just your own interpretation of things. Now you can go ahead and get the last word, a practice you seem to be cherising, adding this thread to the number of those you disfigured.

xechnao said:
Btw, it's a kind of an idea very near the one I originally posted.

It's the opposite of your nun story basically, but I guess that by your standards it's all the same... Whatever.

xechnao · July 12, 2005

Aazealh said:
I'm criticizing the way you have to deem some things plausible or possible and others not without providing any kind of factual information, while then proceeding to drown any opposition you might encounter in a sea of mostly irrelevant and disputable arguments. You don't present your ideas as possibilities among others, but as the only conceivable hypotheses. And it never looks like you're just speculating and giving your 2 cents on the matter either, rather that you're bringing incontestable hard facts and deducing the real truth from them, which isn't the case. As I said already, it might just be the way you word your opinions, but in any case it should change if you ever hope to start a discussion that doesn't end just disgusting other people.

Let me ask why did you have to argue with me when I said that Slan's past life was open to a lot of possibilities? I didn't say your hypothesis was wrong, just that it certainly isn't more likely than any other if we go by the concrete informations we have about Slan. You're just not accepting this from the beginning, and none of what you said stands as a justification, it's just your own interpretation of things. Now you can go ahead and get the last word, a practice you seem to be cherising, adding this thread to the number of those you disfigured.

I think it's the way you have been posting your replies so far. You are right when you say that I shouldn't have argued anything when you said about the possibilities, since what you were saying is true. But the way you reply to my posts, you make me or what I want to say to seem out of place and this provoces or attracts from my part a different approach to re-establish the message I wanted to give. Perhaps this different approach might end to seem "disgusting" when seen isolated, but when you see the whole thread, you could understand.

Aazealh said:
.
It's the opposite of your nun story basically, but I guess that by your standards it's all the same... Whatever.

I didn't say they are the same. I said they come from the same thing. You see for example, it even seems here to me that you try to interpretate my posts in a way to make points to belittle me.

Aazealh · July 12, 2005

xechnao said:
I think it's the way you have been posting your replies so far. You are right when you say that I shouldn't have argued anything when you said about the possibilities, since what you were saying is true.

I'm glad we agree on this.

xechnao said:
But the way you reply to my posts, you make me or what I want to say to seem out of place and this provoces or attracts from my part a different approach to re-establish the message I wanted to give.

This isn't my purpose, I do not seek to discredit (at least not severely) any of what you might speculate on, especially since I myself frequently don't fundamentally disagree with it. I'm mostly just relativizing things when I think the posts or people involved look too self-confident, often because I don't want people to be confused later on between what we know and what we guess.

xechnao said:
Perhaps this different approach might end to seem "disgusting" when seen isolated, but when you see the whole thread, you could understand.

It's more the extreme elucubrations related to not-so-relevant details (often bordering on the off-topic) and the immobilism participants fall in that I think end up with people being fed up of these debates. And don't be mistaken, I didn't mean just your posts but those of all the parties involved.

xechnao said:
I didn't say they are the same. I said they come from the same thing. You see for example, it even seems here to me that you try to interpretate my posts in a way to make points to belittle me.

You said "it's a kind of an idea very near the one I originally posted." To me this means that they're very close, almost the same. I don't think I'm at fault here... Anyway they sure come from the same thing, Slan and her past life. :-*

Bottom line, this all seems to be coming down to miscommunication, not an insurmountable problem in itself. One thing you can be sure of, I'm not maliciously trying to denigrate you... Since we both lengthily and thoroughly exposed our views on the matter, I don't think it's necessary to go on talking about this anymore, especially if it comes down to personal matters. Please PM me if you feel like pursuing this discussion in private.

xechnao · July 12, 2005

Aazealh said:
Please PM me if you feel like pursuing this discussion in private.

I think we have settled everything here allready.

Walter · July 13, 2005

Me too. Now who wants to dance? :troll:

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