Would the old Hawks be able to stand any chance against the Kushans?
- Thread starter Smith
- Start date
Considering that if the Old Hawk band was still around, the Midland forces not being scattered throughtout the country looking for the now-not-wanted hawks, and the King of Midland still keeping his sanity, I don't think Ganishka would ever send his forces to fight against Midland. So, there wouldn't even be a chance for the kushans to invade and fight the hawks.
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
Interesting question, Smith. Assuming that the Old Band of the Hawk wasn't killed off in the Eclipse and that the Kushan Army still invaded, I kinda think that the Kushans would have won. This is mainly because Griffith would have been just a normal human being and Guts wouldn't exist in the interstice nor have the Dragon Slayer, severly reducing their chances. This in addition to the Old Band of the Hawk not possessing any of the current Band of the Hawk members (Locus, Irvine and Grunbeld, plus all the rest of the Apostles currently enlisted) would almost guarantee that the Old Band of the Hawk wouldn't survive against Ganishka and his army of Daka and Familiars.
Pointless speculation, great. 
That's an interesting way to look at it, whether Ganishka would have decided to attack or not if Midland had been doing well. I don't think there's a way to tell for sure, Ganishka is after all attacking himself to the surrounding countries as well now, so their strength might not impress him all that much. There's no doubt however that the weakened Midland was an easy prey for the Kushan armies, Ganishka himself says so (without king, without resources, struck by the plague, with diminished armies, etc), so it might be what triggered his decision to invade. It could also have been Femto's incarnation, though. After all, Ganishka's motivation seems the refusal to bow down to Griffith and be relegated to the rank of "servant" like all the other apostles. He won't abandon what he has without a counterpart, a "toll in blood". These two elements complement each other so well, I can't resist but say that it's causality.
I agree. Let's assume than the Kushans invaded Midland right after the Doldrey battle. The Hawks won, but on the way back they hear that Kushans are invading, they're all over the country and all troops are needed (let's also say that Tudor still agreed for peace). No apostle other than Ganishka interferes either for the sake of the argument. Let's say that all armies head to defend provinces and aren't doing too bad (in spite of their weakened state after the one hundred years war), while the Band of the Hawk stays in Wyndham to protect the capital from the army we see in volume 17, commanded by Ganishka himself. That double page spread in volume 17 shows thousands of soldiers, more than the Hawks IMHO. Capable fighters but not exceptional, except for the Bakiraka clan (that we don't see among the army at that time, but if they hadn't been assigned the task to look for Griffith I assume they'd have been ordered to attack the capital).
Would the Hawks get the upper hand over the Bakiraka? I don't think so. Let's say Griffith, Guts and the Hawks captains are busy with Silat and the Tapasa. Then it's the better-than-average Hawks soldiers against the frightening members of the clan and their exotic fighting style. By evaluating the numbers of the Bakiraka out of nothing but the personal feeling I get from the manga, I'd say their numbers are between a third and a tenth of what the Hawks were at that time. And as far as fighting goes, I'd say a member of the Bakiraka could kill at least an average of 3 enemies before falling. I'd give Carcus, Pippin, Judo, Casca all killed by the Tapasa. That means them four with Silat against Guts and Griffith. The odds are against the Hawks in the long run, IMHO.
Then there's the numerous other Kushan troops, the Pishacha and Daka, and finally Ganishka himself, as we see him leading his troops to Wyndham in episode 127.
Over regular Kushan soldiers I have no doubt about the Hawks' victory, but against Ganishka's monsters or Silat's dreadful clan I don't think they'd be able to defend the country indefinitely.
yota821 said:
That's an interesting way to look at it, whether Ganishka would have decided to attack or not if Midland had been doing well. I don't think there's a way to tell for sure, Ganishka is after all attacking himself to the surrounding countries as well now, so their strength might not impress him all that much. There's no doubt however that the weakened Midland was an easy prey for the Kushan armies, Ganishka himself says so (without king, without resources, struck by the plague, with diminished armies, etc), so it might be what triggered his decision to invade. It could also have been Femto's incarnation, though. After all, Ganishka's motivation seems the refusal to bow down to Griffith and be relegated to the rank of "servant" like all the other apostles. He won't abandon what he has without a counterpart, a "toll in blood". These two elements complement each other so well, I can't resist but say that it's causality.
Rhombaad said:
I agree. Let's assume than the Kushans invaded Midland right after the Doldrey battle. The Hawks won, but on the way back they hear that Kushans are invading, they're all over the country and all troops are needed (let's also say that Tudor still agreed for peace). No apostle other than Ganishka interferes either for the sake of the argument. Let's say that all armies head to defend provinces and aren't doing too bad (in spite of their weakened state after the one hundred years war), while the Band of the Hawk stays in Wyndham to protect the capital from the army we see in volume 17, commanded by Ganishka himself. That double page spread in volume 17 shows thousands of soldiers, more than the Hawks IMHO. Capable fighters but not exceptional, except for the Bakiraka clan (that we don't see among the army at that time, but if they hadn't been assigned the task to look for Griffith I assume they'd have been ordered to attack the capital).
Would the Hawks get the upper hand over the Bakiraka? I don't think so. Let's say Griffith, Guts and the Hawks captains are busy with Silat and the Tapasa. Then it's the better-than-average Hawks soldiers against the frightening members of the clan and their exotic fighting style. By evaluating the numbers of the Bakiraka out of nothing but the personal feeling I get from the manga, I'd say their numbers are between a third and a tenth of what the Hawks were at that time. And as far as fighting goes, I'd say a member of the Bakiraka could kill at least an average of 3 enemies before falling. I'd give Carcus, Pippin, Judo, Casca all killed by the Tapasa. That means them four with Silat against Guts and Griffith. The odds are against the Hawks in the long run, IMHO.
Then there's the numerous other Kushan troops, the Pishacha and Daka, and finally Ganishka himself, as we see him leading his troops to Wyndham in episode 127.
Over regular Kushan soldiers I have no doubt about the Hawks' victory, but against Ganishka's monsters or Silat's dreadful clan I don't think they'd be able to defend the country indefinitely.
Thanks Aaz for answering some of the doubt that i have... But then again given Ganishka power... If he invaded Midland earlier, It would have been 100% victory since like you said there is little chance for the hawk to fight and win...
Therefore the main purpose for invading Midland is to challenge Griffith... That is the best explanation why he didnt do that back 2 years ago...
I always thought the hawk back then was the most powerful army in the world... Hmm how wrong was I..
Therefore the main purpose for invading Midland is to challenge Griffith... That is the best explanation why he didnt do that back 2 years ago...
I always thought the hawk back then was the most powerful army in the world... Hmm how wrong was I..
Smith said:
There are many unknown factors since it didn't happen and never will, so don't be too confident. Maybe Midland would have asked for help and another Holy See alliance would have been formed, gathering enough troops to fight back efficiently. Hell, Wyald could have enjoyed Kushan women.
I wonder if Pishacha would have been enough to conquer Misty Valley or the Snail Count's lands, too.Smith said:
Really, we don't know what he was doing 2 years ago so that's hard to say, maybe he was busy conquering other places or fighting a rebellion, maybe just enjoying himself or researching ways to get more power in between two campaigns, who knows? And preparing a war of that scale doesn't take 2 months either.
Smith said:
Griffith was a brilliant leader and his soldiers were brave, skilled and loyal, but an army of 5000 can hardly beat an army of 50000, especially if the latter uses monsters and magic. I don't think this lowers the Hawks' greatness at all, it's just not a pertinent comparison.
I wonder if it would have been just 5000 under Griffith anymore. With his rise and legendary hero status in Midland it's not to unfathomable to think that he would get to command a larger part of Midlands man power, if not most of them. I admit that I don't think even then they would win the war though. I could only see that happening if the Holy See got the current Alliance together and came in.
Interesting scenario, Griffith and the Hawks come back from Doldrey and Guts doesn't leave. The Kushans attack and start burning the outer parts of the Kingdom, Midland reacts and send an army. The army fights and is defeated, they come back with stories and giant animals and magic. By now several battles have been fought with the Kushans coming out on top most of the time so now Midland and more importantly Griffith and the Hawks know what waits on field. Midland consolidates its forces as the Kushans push inland they meet and with say...Diaba leading one side and Griffith leading most of Midlands forces.
Who would win?
I know its out there but Griffith and Midlands man power vs Kushans and Kushan magic...it's really a tough question in my mind.
Interesting scenario, Griffith and the Hawks come back from Doldrey and Guts doesn't leave. The Kushans attack and start burning the outer parts of the Kingdom, Midland reacts and send an army. The army fights and is defeated, they come back with stories and giant animals and magic. By now several battles have been fought with the Kushans coming out on top most of the time so now Midland and more importantly Griffith and the Hawks know what waits on field. Midland consolidates its forces as the Kushans push inland they meet and with say...Diaba leading one side and Griffith leading most of Midlands forces.
Who would win?
I know its out there but Griffith and Midlands man power vs Kushans and Kushan magic...it's really a tough question in my mind.
Aaz the fortune teller...100% agree with your scenario but I'd had the "Zodd Factor" because during all the pre-eclipse time this one was kinda protecting Griffith so if Ganishka was a life danger I think he would come to protect his lord
Moreover if the BOTH(at least Griffith and a few soldiers)survived the first Kushan strike I'm seeing Griffith using all tricks he can against magic and such so...would he still be leading an apostle army?Not sure but "for sure" he would try to recruit one or two monsters(using wicked deals)
Moreover if the BOTH(at least Griffith and a few soldiers)survived the first Kushan strike I'm seeing Griffith using all tricks he can against magic and such so...would he still be leading an apostle army?Not sure but "for sure" he would try to recruit one or two monsters(using wicked deals)
Opie said:
But who would defend the rest of the country then? As we see it Kushans apparently dispersed their armies to conquer all the country, so Midland's armies would need to try to counter this each on their own, wouldn't they? Besides, even after Griffith became a hero, he still wasn't the most appreciated and while receiving a very high honorific title (well, being promised it before what happened at least), the only one able to rally all the nation's armies and command them is the King. I could see Griffith getting reinforcements but not commanding all the armies, the other generals wouldn't allow it, and I don't think it'd be possible at all anyway. Now maybe joining forces, grouping their armies like what they planned to do for Doldrey... But still, the Kushan forces are seemingly immense, I don't think even all of Midland's military would have been enough (the White Tiger faction lost 40% of its men against Doldrey and it was the second biggest army in Midland for example).
I guess there could be a huge clash between all of Midland's armies and the Kushans, but would they even have enough space to fight? They'd need a really huge plain and a single unplanned factor like Pishacha/Daka and Ganishka's magic could be enough to turn all the battle around in one side's advantage.
Opie said:
Hmm yeah, that'd be a lot of people, but I don't think the Holy See alliance could be formed fast enough to be ready when the Kushans would attack for the first time. Hell, Ganishka could strike them at Vritannis like he's doing right now, what would the difference be?
Opie said:
But in volume 17, the attack is a total surprise and the Kushan army arrives at Wyndham before attacking anything else (as far as we know).
Opie said:
I wonder if Daiba would lead a terrestrial army, the Kushan empire is divided in clans, so they're all a bit separated from the others, not akin to swap leaders apparently. Anyway, if there was to be a big clash between the 2 countries that would appear to be decisive, I think Ganishka himself would lead the troops.
Mad Angel Loki said:
Yeah but that was because of the impending Occultation and all. I mean, he didn't come to rescue Griffith out of prison, so while I think he was curious about him and all, I wouldn't say he protected Griffith all the time before he became Femto. He watched the fight at Doldrey and helped Guts, and he killed Wyald later on, but that's it. If Kushans invaded I think he'd rather go and fight them on his own, like he was doing before, e.g. in volume 17 before he's visisted by the Falcon of Light. Griffith was also certainly not Zodd's "lord", remember that this one tried to fight against the Falcon of Light... He's the only one too as far as we know.
Now, since we're assuming something that didn't happen, we've got to ignore stuff like how Griffith is supposed to become the fifth member of the God Hand, otherwise he can't die and there's no point in speculating at all. Idea and causality would take care of everything and have Ganishka trip on a rock and break his neck or something like that.
Mad Angel Loki said:
Hmm, honestly I'm not convinced. What tricks could he use against monsters? And how would he recruit anybody? He couldn't possibly get an army of apostles as a human (would he even want to?), and even if one of them joined him for some reason it still wouldn't be enough to win against all of the Kushan army. And Ganishka fried a few of Locus' men without any trouble anyway, so...
R
-rob-
Guest
Griffith would pull them through it. Look how bad the odds were against The Hawks at Doldrey, and vs Wyald, and vs Zodd...
-rob- said:
I don't think that's a very credible point, really. Doldrey? Griffith had a plan, it worked because of Gennon but it was close. Against Wyald, Griffith or the Hawks did nothing at all, Guts valiantly fought and defeated him but in the end it's thanks to Zodd that Griffith survived. Finally, against Zodd, they would both be dead if he hadn't seen the beherit.
Fighting the Kushans would be different from all this.
R
-rob-
Guest
Aazealh said:
Yes, but no matter how deep the problem was they always somehow pulled it through right? (Until Guts left and Griffith lost his mind of course)
-rob- said:
You didn't get my point at all, did you? You can't say that because Guts and Griffith could overcome events in the past they would overcome fictional events that didn't happen in the manga. It's just not correct reasoning. It's like saying that because I can break a pencil with my bare hands I can also break a tree log with my bare hands.
Guts and Griffith survived until the Occultation by chance sometimes, and it's not a stretch to assume that it wasn't so much chance but causality leading them. And for a speculation with such a silly (quoting CnC) postulate, not discarding causality makes the whole premise about the alternate story impossible.
R
-rob-
Guest
Aazealh said:
Whether it was by chance, skill, casualty, fate, destiny, whatever... They pulled it through everytime, I dont think vs the Kushans would have been any different... Just my opinion though.
-rob- said:
Duh. So why did Griffith end up jailed and tortured? He pulled it through? The Hawks were decimated by the rest of Midland's armies too. I don't mind any opinion but if possible it'd be less frustrating for others if you illustrated it with examples and gave reasons why you think they'd win against an overpowered enemy.
I'm not saying that Zodd would tag along with them but he would absolutely save Griffith...even if he wouldn't recognize Griffith as his master he'd still expect him to become a very strong "man" and maybe the famous "ultimate strong" that he is looking for(after the Eclipse)...
When Griffith was in prison maybe he(Zodd) tough that all matters was part of Idea plan since he knew that Griffith fail was the trigger leading to the occultation...my point is that Ganishka would try to KILL Griffith and so doing would go "agaisnt" Idea's plan(he can't but at least he'd try)
Anyway (like you said ) Idea would always find a way to make it so Griffith became Femto!
When Griffith was in prison maybe he(Zodd) tough that all matters was part of Idea plan since he knew that Griffith fail was the trigger leading to the occultation...my point is that Ganishka would try to KILL Griffith and so doing would go "agaisnt" Idea's plan(he can't but at least he'd try)
Anyway (like you said ) Idea would always find a way to make it so Griffith became Femto!
Mad Angel Loki said:
I don't think so, no. What Eclipse? How could Griffith sacrifice the Hawks if they had died in the fight against the Kushans (most of them if not all)? Why would he sacrifice them if he hadn't been tortured and Guts hadn't left? And Zodd didn't expect Griffith to be the ultimate strong one, even a second before the Falcon of Light appeared to him he was still wondering about it... That argument just doesn't make sense to me.
Mad Angel Loki said:
And why wouldn't he think that at another time? Really, Zodd isn't privy to the details of the Idea of Evil's great scheme. He played his role at that time in the story, but considering the alternate scenario we're speculating on I don't think it's safe to assume Zodd would have watched over him more than before. And Zodd couldn't possibly know whether Griffith would live or die in jail either. He was at the right place at the right time twice thanks to causality, but I don't think it can be part of the speculation here as I've said several times already.
Mad Angel Loki said:
I've spent 3 posts explaining that if we were even considering Idea's plan at all then this thread had no reason to be. Idea's plan is Ganishka attacking Midland as Femto is incarnated into a new Griffith, just like what happened in the manga. To imagine a different story negates Idea's plan, so it's useless to refer to it IMO, you have to only consider Griffith as a talented man, not as a future God Hand member. The Hawks fighting a Kushan invasion would make it impossible for the story to be the same.
Besides, Ganishka trying to kill Griffith or not isn't certain, and Zodd being able to save him isn't certain either. Nothing is certain anyway.
I wonder why I'm still posting in this thread.hawks alone has obviously no chance, no matter how strong they are...they cant go against monster, str' and number wise...they are just weaker, and Ganishka isnt that dumb strategist either, sending small attacks to kill the lords, hiding the...errmmm...magicans (however they are called) that control his monsters far far away, they just cant overcome them, no matter what...
but!
if, were talking about the whole army, if midland...i think it might be possible, for only one reason, Mozgus (...pfft, forgot his name, the insane priest with his angel possy) , though i doubt he can win the fight, but with him they wont be crushed...and have the slight chance.
with no eclipse, guts wont get there, so...he would still be alive, and could fight.
and not only him, even though the apostles are the enemys of human...i dont think they'll join Ganishka, but fight against him...even alone, they could harm if troops greatly.
but!
if, were talking about the whole army, if midland...i think it might be possible, for only one reason, Mozgus (...pfft, forgot his name, the insane priest with his angel possy) , though i doubt he can win the fight, but with him they wont be crushed...and have the slight chance.
with no eclipse, guts wont get there, so...he would still be alive, and could fight.
and not only him, even though the apostles are the enemys of human...i dont think they'll join Ganishka, but fight against him...even alone, they could harm if troops greatly.
but he was created as an apostle before the eclipse...well, the femto eclipse no?...i mean, if we say theres no eclipse what so ever...there werent any apostles...so there wont be any Ganishka 
adon_shoko said:
No, he became a pseudo-apostle (not a real apostle) during the Incarnation ceremony, in volume 20. Before that he was just a normal human (although mad). He and his disciples gained power thanks to the Beherit-Apostle.
adon_shoko said:i mean, if we say theres no eclipse what so ever...there werent any apostles...so there wont be any Ganishka
Apostles aren't created during Eclipses, only God Hand members are.
ermmm...ok :O
my bad ^_^
but, i still think that the apostles will fight him
and it seems like an apostle is alot stronger than just a magical beat...
i wonder, if grifith werent the chosen one...were there be someone else who'd rise instead of him?, if it happens every X years, than someone must rise ne?...so there might be a diffrent savior (i know im off the whole hawks vs Gani...but i dont think anyone in his right mind can believe they have any chance )
my bad ^_^
but, i still think that the apostles will fight him
and it seems like an apostle is alot stronger than just a magical beat...
i wonder, if grifith werent the chosen one...were there be someone else who'd rise instead of him?, if it happens every X years, than someone must rise ne?...so there might be a diffrent savior (i know im off the whole hawks vs Gani...but i dont think anyone in his right mind can believe they have any chance
)