Gatts dream?

pav

"Are you lookin at me?"
While watching the anime for the hundreth time (well not really) I realised Gatts dream is unkown. He never shared it with anyone. I was just wonderin if he told his dream in the manga to anyone (if he did what volume is it) because I think this is one of the most interesting subjects. It could actually help me understand what drives Gatts on each day.
I thought about this subject most particularly when watching the fountain scene when Griffis is explaining what a dream is to Charlotte (in my opinion one of the best scenes in the anime). And I realised what if Gatts isnt trying to kill Griffis for the sheer fact of what happened in the casualty or too Caska. Yet also its because Griffis has ruined Gatts dream, quote Griffis = Fountain scene sorry if I cant remember the exact words
"That person would do anything to accomplish their dream, kill anyone steppin infront of their even if that person was ME".
Maybe he couldn't go through with it when he saw Griffis all mutilated before the eclipse and his fellings came over him but now with his vengeance he can, and his dream can be fulfilled whatever it is.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
yeah, he tells Caska (kind of) about his dream after they hit the hay in vol.11.
in short (and i might be wrong on this, berserk buffs please don't laugh), gatts' dream is to live independently without living under other people's influence i.e. Griffith) -- so i guess what he seeks is a freedom to make a choice in his life, without the influence of fate, god's hand and other stuff
 

pav

"Are you lookin at me?"
Yeah I kinda already knew this but what i mean is that Griffis wanted his own kingdom as his dream but what was Gatts dream what did he want his own army a nice house?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
At the time, Guts wasn’t really clear on what his dream was.  He explained the concept to Caska, living your life outside the influence of other people as eintrigga put it, or winning something for yourself, it’s basically independence.  Guts didn’t leave the Hawks to pursue a specific dream, but he knew that if he stayed he would never have one.  Guts would have been perfectly happy with the Hawks (as he realized in volume 12) but it would have been a happiness that was given to him, not a happiness he got on his own, not something he won for himself.  The basic concept of the dream is the same for Griffith, Guts or anybody else, the difference is how it is expressed, for example: Griffith wanted his own Kingdom even though he was just a commoner.  That way he could be sure that his life wasn’t just something controlled by the upper-class, the only way he could feel in control of his life and know that he truly exists. He gave himself a purpose more important than anything that anyone else could try to assign him to do. But I don't think he went after his dream out of a selfish need for his own happiness, on the contrary he sacrificed much of himself and his happiness for it, I think he could have been happier with a quiet life (like the dream sequence with Caska before the eclipse), but it would have been a life fashioned for him in a world ruled by nobles, something he was given, allowed to have.  I think that’s the same for Idea and all of humanity, people can be happy with Idea controlling their destiny, but it’s takes away their ability to create something for themselves that reflects who they are, I think Idea makes life easier for humanity, but certainly not better.  It’s ironic, because Griffith seems to have forgotten the meaning of his dream because of his obsession to realize the physical expression of it.  God Hand and Idea are the same as that upper-class Griffith didn’t want his life to be controlled by, he’s ended up doing exactly what he wanted to avoid, so in that sense he truly has betrayed his dream… whoops, weren't we supposed to be talkin’ about Guts? ;D Yes I remember now. Guts didn’t really have a clear dream before the eclipse, but afterward he decided he was going to destroy God Hand and Griffith.  I think eventually Griffith will have to turn against God Hand if he wants to truly realize his dream, of course, all this is just my opinion.

-Griffith
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
He didn’t when he left the Hawks, his dream in a way was to have a dream ;D :p to fulfill like Griffith did.  Ranemaka is right in the fact that Griffith’s Dream/friendship speech to Charlotte is what prompted him to eventually leave; Griffith unintentionally motivated him.  But I don’t think Guts’ dream was just to be Griffith’s friend, it just made him look at what he was doing with his life and what Griffith was doing with his.  And don’t forget the Campfire analogy Guts made, about everyone’s little fire, their personal dream, getting absorbed by Griffith’s huge one.

-Griffith

P.S. 186 Whooooooo!!!!
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
 And don’t forget the Campfire analogy Guts made, about everyone’s little fire, their personal dream, getting absorbed by Griffith’s huge one.

Wow,, good points there Gr4iffith and Ranemaka. I agree but...

I think that it might not need to a negative statement about the Campfires. I always pictured it that all the small flames contributed to Griffith's larger fire, was a part of it, not that they were absorbed and destroyed. Griffith's larger fire was what gave the smaller fires an opportunity to burn without being extinguished...
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Interesting take, but I disagree under the circumstances of which Guts said it, I really think Guts meant it the other way around. For instance, he brought up what Gaston wanted to do after he left the Hawks, a Taylor I believe, and later Judeau and Guts talk about Corkus, how he used to lead a small group of bandits and might have had a dream of his own. I think Guts was looking at the downside to being a Hawk and serving someone elses dream in general, that’s why he had to leave.

-Griffith
 
so it was like he was convincing himself that it would be better if he were to leave the Hawks...

you think its a good thing he left to find his own dream?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
so it was like he was convincing himself that it would be better if he were to leave the Hawks...

you think its a good thing he left to find his own dream?
Yeah.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
indeed......................................................................... ::)
I’m sensing a tad of sarcasm…do you think Guts should have done otherwise?

-Griffith
 
not completely. for the sake of the story and his dream, yes, i think he shoulda gone away. but when he comes back to the hawks, he realizes that the hawks is where he belongs. so theres a part of me that thinks he shoulda stayed.

i was just expecting alittle more from ya Griff.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I think it was the best thing he could do for himself at the time. If he had stayed he would have just been wasting his life as a noble. Hell, Caska didn’t even realize her feelings for Guts until he left, and I don’t know if it would have been possible for them to get together if he had stayed. She probably would have carried a torch for Griffith the rest of her life. I think it was the right choice, had he stayed, he would have forever been known as Griffith’s second in command, the guy who helped Griffith so much, Griffith’s best friend…but he would have had no identity of his own.

-Griffith

P.S. Up to my usual standards?
 
I think it was the best thing he could do for himself at the time.  If he had stayed he would have just been wasting his life as a noble. Hell, Caska didn’t even realize her feelings for Guts until he left, and I don’t know if it would have been possible for them to get together if he had stayed.  She probably would have carried a torch for Griffith the rest of her life. I think it was the right choice, had he stayed, he would have forever been known as Griffith’s second in command, the guy who helped Griffith so much, Griffith’s best friend…but he would have had no identity of his own.

-Griffith

yeah, i guess that is true. but i just thought about all that shit that happened after he left, especially the eclipse. and maybe Guts wouldnt have been satisfied as a noble, since he wouldnt be able to swing his sword around...

P.S. Up to my usual standards?

there we go! ;)
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
Sometimes you have to leave to be able to come home... *looks all mysterious and Zen like :p*

Gatts had to leave because that was when he realised that for the first time in his life he had left something behind.

Before that it had only heen him, him, him, there was no room for anyone else. Now he suddenly found himself missing the company of friends and loved ones... Just as Griffith needed to deal with being abandoned for the very first time. Too bad that Gatts dealt with it better than Griffith...
 
Interesting take, but I disagree under the circumstances of which Guts said it, I really think Guts meant it the other way around.  For instance, he brought up what Gaston wanted to do after he left the Hawks, a Taylor I believe, and later Judeau and Guts talk about Corkus, how he used to lead a small group of bandits and might have had a dream of his own.  I  think Guts was looking at the downside to being a Hawk and serving someone elses dream in general, that’s why he had to leave.

-Griffith

Actually,  I thought Guts was implying that each of those small flames represented a given person's dream, but instead of those people letting the flames (dreams) die, they brought it a larger flame; Griffith's...making it larger.  Then Guts goes on to say that he didn't bring his own flame...but instead seems to have come only to warm himself by the fire before leaving again.
(why is it splitting Actually up into Actual ly...modifying the msg shows it spelled normally...)
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Actual ly,  I thought Guts was implying that each of those small flames represented a given person's dream, but instead of those people letting the flames (dreams) die, they brought it a larger flame; Griffith's...making it larger.  
Almost, they bring their dream, but if their not careful their little fire will be blown into Griffith’s huge one, and their little dream will die.  Look at what happened to the Hawks that stayed loyal to Griffith after he was imprisoned, they lost their dream in Griffith’s and had nowhere else to go.  Anyway, I think the analogy is best proved by the Sacrifice at the Eclipse, the ‘campfire of dreams’ analogy is very similar to the ‘stacking bodies’ analogy.  Of course the latter is a much darker and probably more realistic way of looking at it.

-Griffith
 

wunwong

NOw...To gEt mY hANds uNstUcK.....
I think the situation may a bit more complicated than that, thought he camp-fire and satcked body ananlogies are useful. Remember the talk Gatts had with Corkus and Judeau just before he left? What about the talk with Caska after they rescued Griffith? Try to remember those. An important concept here is the that individuals can do very little, but a group, the combination of their talents/sacrifice can accomplish a great deal. On the other hand, not all of the goals by the group can be accomplished, often they need ot focus on ONE dream first. During the process, priority is given to the strongest dream/goal, while the members submerged their individual dreams for a while. If they survived the process, the strongest/largest dream gets accomplished(or as close to it as situation allows) while some of the members may get their individual dreams. That's the crux of the matter...some do lose their dreams to the strongest dream...but there's a chance that the lucky ones can get their small dreams realized as well. The unlucky ones become corpses. Griffith ended up stepping on so many others because his dream was so big that it consumed many of its followers, but it didn't guarantee all of their downfalls...they had a chance(at least up till the eclipse). Gatts didn't have a dream when he decided to leave the Hawks, and thus the warming himself by the fires comment as mentioned. IT was perhaps a good thing he left, because i think he understood that for good or for ill he had to at least understood his dream first, because while he was in the Hawks, his own desires will be stifled as long as he worked for the greater cause...that of Griffith's dreams When he returned and helped rescued Griffith, Caska told him to go on alone to pursuit his dream, knowing that it will also consume the dreams of his followers(the raiding team) as well. Having Griffith along will always 'dilute' that cause...making it very difficult for Gatts to achieve anything.
that's y take on this, what do you think? ::)
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Hmmm, well, you seem to agree with me for the most part.

A few things though…
Remember the talk Gatts had with Corkus and Judeau just before he left?  What about the talk with Caska after they rescued Griffith? Try to remember those. An important concept here is the that individuals can do very little, but a group, the combination of their talents/sacrifice can accomplish a great deal.  On the other hand, not all of the goals by the group can be accomplished, often they need ot focus on ONE dream first.  During the process, priority is given to the strongest dream/goal, while the members submerged their individual dreams for a while.  
This could be true hypothetically, but it just wasn’t the relationship that Griffith and the Hawks had.  The Hawks were supposed to be in the service of Griffith’s dream, it wasn’t about them, whether they knew it or not. Guts realized this and that’s why he left.
Gatts didn't have a dream when he decided to leave the Hawks, and thus the warming himself by the fires comment as mentioned.  IT was perhaps  a good thing he left, because i think he understood that for good or for ill he had to at least understood his dream first, because while he was in the Hawks, his own desires will be stifled as long as he worked for the greater cause...that of Griffith's dreams  When he returned and helped rescued Griffith, Caska told him to go on alone to pursuit his dream, knowing that it will also consume the dreams of his followers(the raiding team) as well.  Having Griffith along will always 'dilute' that cause...making it very difficult for Gatts to achieve anything.  
that's y take on this, what do you think? ::)
Ten four.  Except, it’s not necessarily having Griffith along, it’s just if they’re working for his goal.  As I and others have speculated, it’s quite possible that Guts and Griffith may have the same dream in the future.

-Griffith
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
that similar goal...is it to defy fate and create the freedom to create one's path)?

or something greater?

methinks all this personal dream thing stinks of nietzche

(woohoo! spending the last days of one's life suffering from syphilus and insanity....wait, that actually does remind me of berserk)
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
that similar goal...is it to defy fate and create the freedom to create one's path)?
Bingo.

But greater like you said, they may just have to destroy fate.

-Griffith
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Gatsu is the destroyer of everything, I doubt he won't bust up the flow of karma too.

And if it wasn't for gatsu, nothing would have ever happened, since the trigger of all the story is gatsu leaving griffis. That's when everything started.
 
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