Can Guts actually do any damage to the God Hand's plans?

I'm curious if anyone has an accurate count of how much damage Guts has really been doing to the forces of the God Hand? How many Apostles has he killed anyway?

Personally, I'm actually wondering if Guts is doing anything at all. The Idea of Evil, if not omnipotent, is so incredibly powerful that even his servants seem like mythological gods. Griffith's power is one that also seems that he could make as many Apostles as he wants. The whole sacrifice thing seems to be less about the power it produces than the person showing that they want to divorce themselves from their humanity.

I don't think Guts CAN harm the Godhand as well. At least, I've seen no real evidence other than Skull Knight and Guts being tossed back rather than passing through or something else like that.

willowhugger said:

How many Apostles has he killed anyway?

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We don't know, but it's "many". And apostles aren't the forces of the God Hand, even if they're currently being led by Griffith. The God Hand doesn't care about apostles at all actually, as we can see in volume 3.

willowhugger said:

Griffith's power is one that also seems that he could make as many Apostles as he wants.

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What? I don't follow you, Griffith himself doesn't "make" apostles with a special power. It's just that apostles naturally came to serve him after his incarnation.

willowhugger said:

I don't think Guts CAN harm the Godhand as well. At least, I've seen no real evidence other than Skull Knight and Guts being tossed back rather than passing through or something else like that.

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Well, Guts stabbed Slan with the Dragon Slayer in volume 26, thus "destroying" the body she had made out of troll innards. It wasn't enough to effectively harm her as a spiritual entity, but it shows that it's not impossible. There are threads on the subject already, feel free to check them out for more information.

Now to answer your question: Guts isn't doing much, no. His actions certainly haven't been a threat to the God Hand until now, and even less to the Idea of Evil. As far as we know, their plan is going smoothly, and the odds aren't in Guts' favor. It's actually hard to imagine how Guts, Skull Knight and the others could ever be victorious with the current understanding of the world we have, that's also what makes Berserk so mysterious: a lot of crucial elements of the plot are still unknown.

Now that Griffith has a mortal body it would be interesting to see if Guts can take on Griffith while he's in the mortal plane.  But at Guts current state even with the Armor or the Dark Power of the Dragon Slayer I seriously doubt Guts is ready to face Griffith considering he still has a hard time facing Zodd or Grumbeld. IMHO i think when he gets to Elfheim he might receive another gift from the elf king to help in his fight against the Hand of God.

xbigvmanx said:

Now that Griffith has a mortal body it would be interesting to see if Guts can take on Griffith while he's in the mortal plane.

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Well, Griffith has a physical (as opposed to astral) body, but it doesn't mean it's just a human or normal body. I know it's not necessarily what you meant but I wanted to specify it again. Anyway yeah, Griffith currently is a mystery to us...

By "Griffith" creating Apostles, I mean more that the Behelit's channel the God hand's (and presumably Griffith's) power to transform a normal human being into one of the Apostles.

Dragonslayer is obviously the key to fighting the Godhand but wherever did the sword get the magic to absorb Apostle evil? Or is it a natural property of weapons to absorb power from dead Apostles? (I can't imagine that killing an Apostle is a common occurance)

willowhugger said:

By "Griffith" creating Apostles, I mean more that the Behelit's channel the God hand's (and presumably Griffith's) power to transform a normal human being into one of the Apostles.

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Hmm, we don't know how apostles are created, nothing says it's the God Hand's power specifically. Beherits come from the Abyss and allow humans to summon the God Hand when the time is right, Void issues the Brand of sacrifice, but as far as actually giving power we've just never seen it happening, so it's hard to say. Griffith went to the Abyss and directly to Idea when he became Femto, so for now we can't really say how it's done for mere apostles. Also, about the God Hand and Griffith, since your sentence seemed a bit ambiguous to me I'd like to state again that Griffith is still part of the God Hand, even if he was incarnated.

willowhugger said:

Or is it a natural property of weapons to absorb power from dead Apostles? (I can't imagine that killing an Apostle is a common occurance)

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The sword doesn't absorb the "power of apostles", it was just imbued by all the evil creatures (no just apostles) Guts killed during his years of battle with it. That makes it more than just a piece of iron, it has an astral aura. That's pretty much all we know at the moment.

Thanks, I'm just beginning my research into Berserk and I don't have everything down pat yet.

This is really informative.

Aazealh said:

Well, Griffith has a physical (as opposed to astral) body, but it doesn't mean it's just a human or normal body. I know it's not necessarily what you meant but I wanted to specify it again. Anyway yeah, Griffith currently is a mystery to us...

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I dunno why suddenly i have this idea... But i got a feeling Griffith mortal body now is like the body of a moonlight child... Like the child.. you cant see he is human also... (Probably because i am assuming moonlight to be child of both Guts and caska and his previous body have been incarnated by Griffith... Kinda weird idea...)

Right now I think Guts mean nothing to the GodHand but as soon as he get to Elfhelm and meet with Hanafubuku and some wizards he'll learn enough(about the astral world etc)to at least start to go against GodHand's plans...I don't mean he'll suddenly become THE man(because even SkullKnight which is still far more powerfull than Guts don't seem to be such a pain for GodHand's)but at least with what he will learn he(Guts),plus some "power up" he wont travel randomly and "goalessly"(Tm) anymore 

Griffith does have a mortal body now, however that doesnt really mean much as its been noted and seen several times that mere humans can do nothing to really stop him. The Kushan archers were massive in number but every volley of arrows somehow managed to miss Griffith. Its been said that no mere human of the real world has a chance of stopping a being like Griffith... then again Guts is no mere human anymore.

HawaiianStallion said:

Griffith does have a mortal body now

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Well, if you want to be nitpicky, there's currently no indication that Griffith's body is mortal as in "subject to death". Now I suppose it is in a way or another, otherwise I pity the poor Guts.

If anything, griffith's "body" (mortality not included) is just so he could physically manifest this world. Its destructability is questionable, at best.

For me there's no doubt that using a true(physical) body Griffith/Femto made himself reachable, but it must not be more than that...considering that he is still(Griffith) mainly a great astral thing I doubt that an arrow in his back could kill him, we still miss a lot of thing to conclude on this subject anyway...

Mad Angel Loki said:

Right now I think Guts mean nothing to the GodHand but as soon as he get to Elfhelm and meet with Hanafubuku and some wizards he'll learn enough(about the astral world etc)to at least start to go against GodHand's plans...I don't mean he'll suddenly become THE man(because even SkullKnight which is still far more powerfull than Guts don't seem to be such a pain for GodHand's)but at least with what he will learn he(Guts),plus some "power up" he wont travel randomly and "goalessly"(Tm) anymore

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Skully is more powerful than Guts is currently, I can't argue that. In my mind...what makes Skully so powerful is that he doesn't have to deal with a 'physical' body anymore...his soul resides in the armor he wears. Plus the man eats Behelits in order to use the Yobimizu no Tsurugi. so perhaps the Behelits he eats give him some sort of power. But I don't know.
Now, has there ever been confirmation of Skully meeting with Hanafubuku? If there is and i missed it, my bad. But if Skully hasn't met with Hanafubuku and Guts is pretty much on the way to meet him as we speak...whose to say that Guts won't recieve that 'something special' he needs in order to do battle and do some real damage to his enemy...maybe even something that will protect his ego from being consumed by the Berserk Armor?? The Berserk Armor is crucial for Guts to deal with the stronger apostles he is facing. Which from now on looks lke they'll all be tough cookies. And if Hanafubuku can do something that will eliminate the risk of Guts losing his ego to the armor...then Guts will be ready to do some real damage to the Neo-Hawks.
In any case I think that Guts will eventually be as strong or stronger the Skully...IMHO anyway.
P.S. I was thinking...Guts' real beef is with Griffith...no shit...I don't think the rest of Godhand are as imporant to him as Griffith is...if, eventually, Guts kills Griffith...and messes up the Godhands plan, THEN it would be what another 500 years for a new Godhand to be born and another 1000 years for them to be reincarnated as Griffith is now? So if Guts can eventually kill Griffith...whether or not the rest of the Godhand is destroyed is irrelevant beause their plans are royaly fucked....but we all know that Skully has a beef with the rest of Godhand SO...who knows

Proj2501 said:

Now, has there ever been confirmation of Skully meeting with Hanafubuku?

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Nope, however considering that he knows about him and all, it's not unlikely that they could have met.

Proj2501 said:

whose to say that Guts won't recieve that 'something special' he needs in order to do battle and do some real damage to his enemy...maybe even something that will protect his ego from being consumed by the Berserk Armor??

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The seal Flora put on the Berserk's armor already protects Guts' ego and prevents it from being consumed, the problem currently is more the astral wound Slan inflicted him since it's what always triggers the Beast. The Hanafubuku Ô should be able to help him in that regard.

Proj2501 said:

it would be what another 500 years for a new Godhand to be born

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Eclipses happen every 216 years.

Proj2501 said:

So if Guts can eventually kill Griffith...whether or not the rest of the Godhand is destroyed is irrelevant beause their plans are royaly fucked...

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I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. The layers of the world are already merging, and its principles have changed. We don't know whether killing Griffith would reverse (or even stop) the process or not. The God Hand seems to have a firmer grasp on the material world already (Slan in the Qliphoth), so by the time Guts comes back from Elfhelm things might be a bit more complicated than that.

Aazealh said:

Eclipses happen every 216 years.

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I knew I was off....thanks for the correction

The skullknight is quite powerful, above gutts, still. Perhaps with the armor gutts is nearer equal, but we must not forget that gutts is still phsyical and fleshy, which skully isn't. Despite the fact right now gutts would likely be able to exchange blows, and possibly do a good bit of harm if he remains intact (IE no beast.) Now as for harming griffith, just to consolidate everything.

He is phsyical. We know not whether he can die, or even be harmed. Nor do we understand to any extent his powers, from what we have seen arrows miss him, he can summon dead spirits, and seemingly fly upon his horse. We also are unsure of whether he has a secondary form.

I didnt mean mortal as in he's gonna die eventually. I should have been more specific. He's got a "real" body, as in he exists in the real world in a human form (how human is debatable), unlike the other Godhand member's who need to use posessions to appear in the real world.

A bit of side speculation, but could the beast still be able to rear its head even after Slan's wounds were fully healed?

yeah of course, this entire time the beast has been around, telling gutts to kill everyone. But now it will take abit more then a couple of hits to send gutts into berserk mode.

HawaiianStallion said:

could the beast still be able to rear its head even after Slan's wounds were fully healed?

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I think so, yes. Like Kart said, it's just that it shouldn't be so easy anymore... At the moment just hearing Griffith's name is enough to trigger the Beast, once cured and covered in amulets it should take a bit more than that.

Aazealh said:

I think so, yes. Like Kart said, it's just that it shouldn't be so easy anymore... At the moment just hearing Griffith's name is enough to trigger the Beast, once cured and covered in amulets it should take a bit more than that.

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Amulets? You mean like gifts from Hanafubuku? And that is what I was pretty much thinking on the Beast showing itself again, it didnt need the wound to come out before aka nearly raping and murdering Caska. However I think you're right that the wounds are one of the main triggers, though it seems if Guts were to get really lost in the moment again it might have the ability to show itself again.

HawaiianStallion said:

Amulets? You mean like gifts from Hanafubuku?

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Yeah, I was sort of joking about that though, in relation to the talisman Flora carved on the armor and the one she gave Casca (plus the seals on their brand).

i dont know, this might be the piece you're missing.

The armor of berserk has a magical od that will drive a man mad, turn him into a monster(not literally), Now Guts doesn't use the armor that much, he pretty much only uses it's power when hes in a fight. but the od is always flowing, pulling him into madness, normally we know Guts is a rather strong willed man, he's able to fight with even the most brutal wounds, wounds that would make a normal man unable to walk. Now when he fought slan, she damaged his astral body, which is why the beast is so much more prominant right now.

Kart said:

Now Guts doesn't use the armor that much, he pretty much only uses it's power when hes in a fight. Now when he uses it, the od is flowing, pulling him into madness

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I think this part needs to be made clearer. Guts uses the armor all the time as long as he wears it. It allows him to suffer less from his wounds, even if the effect isn't as strong as when he's fighting. So basically he's constantly enduring the flow of Od from the armor, that's why SK warns him about his senses, and that's why the slightiest contrariety has him struggling to keep control of himself. It's not like there's a switch to activate the armor's power, donning it is enough.

I think SK's speech explains it well enough: "The Od that resides in that armor is like a flame that never burns out. Even if you hold if off, it will still burn. And any chance it gets, it will easily become a massive flame."

That's why it's a cursed item, because if you don't resist the urge, you'll lose control and attack everything until you die.

So wait... he can't take the armor off, ever? It's bonded to his body?