Is moving beyond the Apostles and Godhand a mistake?

Aside from Puck, there wasn't much in the way of the supernatural beyond the Apostles and the Godhand at the start of Berserk. It makes sense since they basically seem to be God and his Angels except if they happened to be truly depraved beings.

I've heard tell of the Trolls, Elemental Lords, and other creatures and was curious if you guys had any opinions on whether this would reduce the impact of the mythology or not.

I think a good deal of Berserk's poignance is there because the world is Lovecraftian in nature. There's nothing good beyond mankind and the gods are alien/evil.

What do you think?

willowhugger said:

I've heard tell of the Trolls, Elemental Lords, and other creatures and was curious if you guys had any opinions on whether this would reduce the impact of the mythology or not.

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I like these elements a lot, I think they fit well into Berserk and its development. It was always meant as a fantasy manga, and the "recent" (3 years ago) additions didn't surprise me much nor bother me. Miura uses words referring to their original meanings and not the modern stereotypes they've become (a good example is "elves" referring to what elves originally were in folktales and not the Tolkien version of the word), and it's more just as a reference to fantasy in general than anything else, much like he uses Sanskrit words to call monsters inspired from Indian mythology. If the trolls in Berserk were called another name, I don't think a lot of people would link the two.

What I mean is that you shouldn't expect the series to become fundamentally different because of these additions, it's just that the reader discovers more of the world, more of its mechanics, etc. As far as I'm concerned it made things more interesting and added more depth to the story.

willowhugger said:

I think a good deal of Berserk's poignance is there because the world is Lovecraftian in nature. There's nothing good beyond mankind and the gods are alien/evil.

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I don't really agree with saying that the Berserk world is Lovecraftian in nature, even though both being "dark fantasy" makes them close in some respects. In Berserk, God (only one) is a product of mankind, the apostles were all humans at first, and the other creatures are from the astral world. It doesn't compare very well with Lovecraft's mythology of ancient alien giant monsters that humanity can't cope with nor comprehend IMHO.

Aazealh said:

I don't really agree with saying that the Berserk world is Lovecraftian in nature, even though both being "dark fantasy" makes them close in some respects. In Berserk, God (only one) is a product of mankind, the apostles were all humans at first, and the other creatures are from the astral world. It doesn't compare very well with Lovecraft's mythology of ancient alien giant monsters that humanity can't cope with nor comprehend IMHO.

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True, perhaps Unknown Armies: Medieval Ages is a more appropriate analogue.

My main concern is the fact that I like Guts and company to be firmly set in pretty much the darkest fantasy imaginable. Maybe it's just over my impression but I always tend to think of the people of Berserk as the worst humanity has to offer really rather than the good.

While I'm an optimist and man of faith in real life. It's sort of a guilty pleasure to think of Guts living in a world of maleficient gods, no Heaven but only Hell, and people are pretty much vile at heart or at the very least self-centered.

You're right though that the monsters aren't Lovecraftian. The Apostles are essentially people born from the worst darknesses of people given life where you sacrifice your human bonds for pure and temporal power. Love conquers all is pretty much dead here (though it's curious that the Count is the first one to display otherwise).

Part of my dislike for Puck is that he seems to be so genuinely benevolent a being when there's frankly only varying shades of blade in the Berserk world. Your comments have helped me change my opinion of Puck, I don't mind the character so much, but still the elf is something that seems to hint at too "nice" a subsection of Berserk's world.

willowhugger said:

True, perhaps Unknown Armies: Medieval Ages is a more appropriate analogue.

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I'm not sure it is. I'm not sure there needs to be a comparison with something else to be honest.

willowhugger said:

My main concern is the fact that I like Guts and company to be firmly set in pretty much the darkest fantasy imaginable.

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It could be worse really, it's dark but it's not the darkest fantasy imaginable.

willowhugger said:

Maybe it's just over my impression but I always tend to think of the people of Berserk as the worst humanity has to offer really rather than the good.

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There are bad and good people, you can't summarize it in one line.

willowhugger said:

It's sort of a guilty pleasure to think of Guts living in a world of maleficient gods, no Heaven but only Hell, and people are pretty much vile at heart or at the very least self-centered.

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Well, that's mostly the case, but it's not only that. You can't really sum it up in one line like I said.

willowhugger said:

Love conquers all is pretty much dead here (though it's curious that the Count is the first one to display otherwise).

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Yeah, shows that it's not so dead.

willowhugger said:

Part of my dislike for Puck is that he seems to be so genuinely benevolent a being when there's frankly only varying shades of blade in the Berserk world.

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There's a reason for his existence, it's precisely to show that good exists in the Berserk world, that's a very important part of Puck's character at the beginning of the series. The world of Berserk is dark but there are good parts in it, they're just not prominent at the time the story is told. That's why Puck contrasts with the rest, it's not just random.

willowhugger said:

Your comments have helped me change my opinion of Puck, I don't mind the character so much

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Cool, unfortunately it's hard for westerners to get the subtlety of what is represented through Puck, especially the humor.

I expected, that Miura would continue to show more from supernatural side of his world (wouldn´t it be sad, if there was no Elves and "good witches" as opposite against the likes of Godhand/apostles?). All seems very logical so far and I see nothing wrong with it.

It could be worse really, it's dark but it's not the darkest fantasy imaginable.

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Could you be more specific Aazealh? Maybe Urutsukidoji or MPD Psycho was worse... but I can hardly think of anything else. Give some examples please.

Michael said:

Could you be more specific Aazealh? Maybe Urutsukidoji or MPD Psycho was worse... but I can hardly think of anything else. Give some examples please.

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Is there even a need for examples? To keep the syntax of the original line, can't you imagine a darker world? I sure can. So simply, just take Berserk and remove all the good parts from it (there are many), that'd already be much darker for example, and you can worsen it even more without a lot of difficulty. Make Guts a murderous madman that kills people gratuitously, etc.

As for actual existing works and to come back on what we were speaking about earlier, a Lovecraftian world is darker in essence IMO. Humans are powerless and can't possibly fight back against the Ancients. Just knowing about it makes people mad and the world is doomed, it only exists because the time has not come yet for them to rise. There's a lot more hope in Berserk, Guts defies huge forces and is still alive, he has met the God Hand, he escaped the Occultation, he saved Casca and she might be cured, I could go on and on.

Now for examples of series, I'm afraid I don't have time to search and make a list at the moment, but just thinking of all the weird horror manga in Japan (e.g. Uzumaki) it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Aazealh said:

Is there even a need for examples? To keep the syntax of the original line, can't you imagine a darker world? I sure can. So simply, just take Berserk and remove all the good parts from it (there are many), that'd already be much darker for example, and you can worsen it even more without a lot of difficulty. Make Guts a murderous madman that kills people gratuitously, etc.

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Not really, the moments of goodness make it DARKER because if it were say "Orcworld" then the people don't know any better. Having someone like the King rape Charlotte (whom we've known for some time) only makes it that much more horrible a world.

And Lovecraft is horror. Berserk is as far as you can go with being Dark Fantasy without being horror.

willowhugger said:

Berserk is as far as you can go with being Dark Fantasy without being horror.

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That sounds really presumptuous...

willowhugger said:

Not really, the moments of goodness make it DARKER

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Yeah well, that's really just your opinion, and I don't agree with it. You could remove a lot of "goodness" and it'd still be very dark, you could have Zepec rape Jill with his friends and it'd be darker. Also, it certainly doesn't change anything to what I said. The Berserk world isn't the darkest imaginable thing ever, get over it. You said yourself that Puck contrasted with the dark setting, that alone proves it could be darker.

willowhugger said:

And Lovecraft is horror. Berserk is as far as you can go with being Dark Fantasy without being horror.

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Excuse me but do you think you're the authority as far as classifying genres goes? Berserk has been labelled a horror series by a lot of people, even Dark Horse on their website, and I have old Lovecraft books that are called Dark Fantasy and not horror, especially some of his "lighter" works.

To keep the syntax of the original line, can't you imagine a darker world?

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I did not say, it´s impossible to create "darker setting", I asked for examples and I am rather content with it (Saga of Ctulhu).

It´s strange, that altough there is more than one "fish jumping against the flow" it doesn´t hinder plans of Godhand in the least. Furthermore defying the Idea (or rather means, that it represents by its very existence) seems against human nature. Pretty hopeless I say.

As for actual existing works and to come back on what we were speaking about earlier, a Lovecraftian world is darker in essence IMO.

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Didn´t read Lovecraft so far, I´m going to fix that   Altough I´ve heard, that later, authors working in his universe modified/perverted pantheon with good-natured gods. Anyway, I´m getting more and more offtopic, so I´ll stop now.

Michael said:

I did not say, it´s impossible to create "darker setting"

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But that was what you quoted in your post, so I logically replied about it.

Michael said:

It´s strange, that altough there is more than one "fish jumping against the flow" it doesn´t hinder plans of Godhand in the least.

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Well, the God Hand doesn't seem to be planning too much stuff actually, see Slan's appearance in the Qliphoth, I doubt that was part of a grander scheme. The great sinister plan is more the Idea of Evil's doing I think, and indeed, SK or Guts aren't hindering it much, if at all.

Walter said:

That sounds really presumptuous...

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It's not presumptous if it's true

;-)

willowhugger said:

It's not presumptous if it's true

;-)

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You're presuming that no other author can stretch the boundary between horror and fantasy... A rather ridiculous and arrogant statement, I think. Care to justify it, Winky?

I echo willowhugger's sentiment in some ways. I did not like the addition of formal magic into the storyline at first either, I prefered a much more intrinsic and subtle approach but overtime I have grown used to it.

I think a good deal of Berserk's poignance is there because the world is Lovecraftian in nature. There's nothing good beyond mankind and the gods are alien/evil.

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It's true in that mankind ignorantly thinks he is the only being in the universe, and it is this ignorance that keeps him from going mad, like so many of Lovecraft's characters. But Lovecraft does not view humans as good in his work, he is actually extremely misanthropic and views humans as ugly and beyond redemption at heart. And the gods are not all neccesarily evil, this is evident in At the Mountains of Madness, where he describes the great old ones as being similar to mankind in it's ambitions and ways, as they were scientists and artists and explorers. He even mourns their horrible fate as the shoggoths run rampant and kill off many of them.

The way Lovecraft uses the concept of the great old ones and the Cthulhu cult as lying in wait in dimensions between time and space is similar to how the God Hand remains hidden until they show themselves at the eclipse. However Lovecraft's creatures are extra-terrestrial and space travelers instead of just people who sacrificed their loved ones to fulfill their ultimate desire.

Well, the God Hand doesn't seem to be planning too much stuff actually, see Slan's appearance in the Qliphoth

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The use of Qlipoth is quite interesting as seeing that the Qliphoth is what Demons are described as being in the Kabbalah. And there are 12 Qliphotic orders o demons etc. Although I completely disagree with Judaic mysticism, but I'll leave that for another day. :)

As far as adding in a bunch of other supernatural creatures, and making it more of a typical fantasy type world, instead of just humans battling it out with the godhands and their followers as the opposing force is concerned, I don't think Berserk has gone that far yet. It seems that before the eclipse that humanity was oblivious to the presence of supernatural creatures. Griffith's ascendance may have been a catalyst of sorts for the appearance of more monsters or what have you. It definately isn't in the same category as say Record of Lodoss War etc. Berserk is anything but a typical D&D fantasy.

I think the addition of more and more supernatural elements just show to the readers just how far down the rabbit hole of Berserk goes. As the lines between planes of existance blur, humans are exposed to things that would have never been seen by human eyes, and that kind of shock at how much everybody didn't know adds to the horror in Berserk.

Tenro said:

I think the addition of more and more supernatural elements just show to the readers just how far down the rabbit hole of Berserk goes.

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Well, we were already shown (albeit mistakenly) the furthest known depth with Idea.

True, we know that the Idea is at the bottom(or top, really), but I think that the other things that keep popping up fill in the spaces from here to there.

KazigluBey said:

It's true in that mankind ignorantly thinks he is the only being in the universe, and it is this ignorance that keeps him from going mad

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That's not really the case in the Berserk world, and ignorance is rather depicted as a weakness as opposed to knowledge (see the Farnese/witches relation).

KazigluBey said:

The way Lovecraft uses the concept of the great old ones and the Cthulhu cult as lying in wait in dimensions between time and space is similar to how the God Hand remains hidden until they show themselves at the eclipse.

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Well not exactly, you could find a similitude in that they are remote and indirectly influencing the world, but the God Hand are astral beings and live deep within the astral world, they're very different in essence. Also, Cthulhu and the Great Old Ones are basically monstrous extraterrestrial beings (banned from Betelgeuse), and Cthulhu lies at the bottom of the sea, waiting for his time. It's Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth that lives in between dimensions or beyond space-time, and besides being both much more powerful than the God Hand, they don't make much sense (don't have a real shape nor a definite personality, etc). Azathoth is actually always described as blind and stupid.

KazigluBey said:

The use of Qlipoth is quite interesting as seeing that the Qliphoth is what Demons are described as being in the Kabbalah.

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And Slan mentions the sephiroth, although she employs the singular form: sephirah. These are interesting references but nothing more, common things to be found in Berserk.

KazigluBey said:

As far as adding in a bunch of other supernatural creatures, and making it more of a typical fantasy type world, instead of just humans battling it out with the godhands and their followers as the opposing force is concerned

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Humans never battled the God Hand, Guts and SK are the only persons we know of that go against them. Few are those that even know they exist. Also, I don't think that introducing new supernatural creatures necessarily gives the world a more typical fantasy setting. The creatures in question are mostly unique and specific to Berserk, even though their names are reference to classical mythological characters.

KazigluBey said:

It seems that before the eclipse that humanity was oblivious to the presence of supernatural creatures.

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Mostly yes in Midland (who knows about the rest of the world), due in part to the influence of the Holy See and the regression of magic (the disparition of magic users). The apostles we saw in action at that time were discreet.

KazigluBey said:

Griffith's ascendance may have been a catalyst of sorts for the appearance of more monsters or what have you.

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The God Hand was completed and the events that led to the transmigration of the world started, so I think it's pretty sure, no need for a "may" here.

Tenro said:

humans are exposed to things that would have never been seen by human eyes

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Humans had seen these things before, just not recently.

CnC said:

Well, we were already shown (albeit mistakenly) the furthest known depth with Idea.

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We can see the Idea of Evil even without episode 83, so not so mistakenly. It's just the dialogue and full on explanation that bothered Miura IMHO.

Tenro said:

True, we know that the Idea is at the bottom(or top, really)

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It's bottom, not top.

Although the very realistic way that Berserk began as (meaning what the anime showed, pre-eclipse) was very original in terms of anime (I can't think of anything else like it), I do agree that the addition of all of the fantasy elements give it a MUCH deeper story. Think about it, how intresting would Berserk have been if he Guts never fought Zodd, Griffith never activated his Behlit (rather, it never existed), and if Guts in turn never became the Black Swordsman? The series would have most likely been over by now, Griffith would be king (or dead from that poisoned arrow), everyone's happy (or dead >_> ), yadda yadda yadda. It would have been so much more boring if things turned out like that...

Draco said:

Although the very realistic way that Berserk began as (meaning what the anime showed, pre-eclipse)

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Berserk didn't begin like that actually. The Golden Age arc comes after the Black Swordsman arc, and even in the anime the first episode shows Guts fighting an apostle. It was just a long flashback (admitted very rich and interesting), even though the anime focuses on it.

Okay, so I guess that I should have specified "The Golden Age" arc in my previous statements.
But my point is, from Guts's birth all the way untill Griffith activates his Behlit, there weren't really any supernatural or demonic things going on, besides a couple of encounters (Zodd, Wyald). That's been most of Guts's life, and is slightly less than half of the series at the current point in time.

How many volumes does the Black Swordsman last, anyways?

Draco said:

But my point is, from Guts's birth all the way untill Griffith activates his Behlit, there weren't really any supernatural or demonic things going on, besides a couple of encounters (Zodd, Wyald).

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Zodd, Wyald, references to Puck (elf dust, the caravan), the Beherit, the Skull Knight, apostles going to the Eclipse, etc. And it's still a flashback and not the beginning of the story, that was my point.

Draco said:

That's been most of Guts's life, and is slightly less than half of the series at the current point in time.

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The Golden Age arc spans 10 volumes and a half on a total of thirty. That's a third, not half. On these 10 volumes and a half 2 are about the Occultation and its aftermath, 1 is about Wyald, and half a volume is about Zodd. I'm not counting the smaller elements.

Draco said:

How many volumes does the Black Swordsman last, anyways?

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Volume 1 to 3.

Hey Willowhugger, you've got some very interesting posts. I don't agree with most of them, (sword of the Berserk was shaky as a game but a excellent addition to the mythology IMO, and Puck rocks!) but are great reads none this less.

I understand what you mean when you say you want Berserk to be 'the darkest fantasy' but to be honest, it's got brighter spots then most. Aside from the funny antics of Puck, Isidro, etc. There is a side of berserk that is actually very optimistic.

Berserk, to me, embodies the idea that while the world is cruel, dark, and horrid, there is stil good in it, and humanity. A good worth fighting for.

Berserk is a perfect ballance of tradgedy, war, drama, horror, humour, and original ideas, which I don't expect to find duplicated anytime soon. (or ever)