Is Griffith a Sociopath?

When I read these topics about Griffith :griff: I tend to think that people are divided into two camps....

1. Griffith is a sociopath

Basically, by this, we mean that Griffith really has nothing resembling normal conscience. He doesn't feel particularly guilt in the same way other people do and he feels it only in the general sense of an intellectual query.

Everyone is a means to an end and really there is no one that he cares about save Griffith in the end. He's a being that merely looked beautiful and was so narcissistic that the only time he ever felt anything was when he realized he'd lost the affection of everyone else.

2. Griffith is a extremely driven man that nevertheless is capable of feeling all the normal levels of conscience and feeling that another person can.

In this respect, we take Griffith's words to Guts at face value and he genuinely was fond of the man along with Casca. It's also entirely possible that he was moved by the devotion that Charlotte showed him. His choice to kill the members of the Band of the Hawk was done perhaps in part because he wanted to rejoin Charlotte as well as for revenge and a restoration of his body/his ambitions.

Honestly, there's evidence both ways. In both cases, Griffith is a very politically astute man whom knows a good deal about saying the right thing when it needs to be said. Even at his 'best', he's a man capable of brutal assassinations and other acts of atrocity (kidnapping children) but on the other hand...Guts is merely brutal and violent but he helped in those very same acts. We rarely see in the mind of Griffith save when he's at his literal wits end in the dungeons of Midland.

Certainly, Godhand Griffith/Femto is a being incapable of good and utterly evil. It's also difficult to say that even if Griffith were a sociopath in his original body that he wouldn't be not necessarily capable of love and affection in his new body (made from Casca and Guts). This doesn't change I believe that Griffith is evil but he's an evil capable of good, which makes it all the darker.

I tend to fall on the idea that Griffith is/was actually not that evil by comparison to the majority of people in Berserk and he's not a sociopath. The people of Berserk live a pretty much dog-eat-dog world. Elves like Puck don't have much in the way of viewpoints that allow them to percieve just how dark humanity's lives are.

Griffith in my estimation considered the band with affection but kept his emotional distance for purely sensible reasons. The Band of the Hawk was a mercenary group and everyone could get killed at more or less any given time. I actually tend to think that Griffith's speech to Princess Charlotte at the ball was bull re: The whole equality business. Guts :guts: may have been following Griff's dream but he was still the only person whom had a reasonable chance of surviving to the end. I imagine his relationship with Casca was more 'I don't know what I lost until I failed to have it.'

It's in this context that I think Griffith genuinely feels an affection for Charlotte because she loves him unconditionally and practically worships him. Griffith needs this devotion and it's something he's been searching for nearly his entire life.

Cause, frankly, after his rebirth...he doesn't need her anymore yet apparently still seeks her.
 
Well, it depends, if you mean Griffith as "human" or later as "superior being".

To first part: Do you consider people like - Oda Nobunaga, Napoleon or Hitler as sociopaths? They were all capable of genuine affection (in good and bad ways), all were also extremely driven men capable of atrocities. Personally, I think these people fully acknowledged their abilities (and to some extent their superiority to their followers), which could trigger an idea, that they are above "standart social ethics", if they wouldn´t act against it, then they´d hardly be able to gain absolute power anyway :puck:.

As a Godhand, Griffith can´t be described as sociopath. He´s demi-god and you possibly can´t compare his behavior/morals to that of average human anymore.

In this respect, we take Griffith's words to Guts at face value and he genuinely was fond of the man along with Casca. 
Yeah, apparently Guts was one and only person, who made Griffith forget his dream. These feelings were true at the time (or so I believe), rest of his men were also important (to some extent) to him. Yet he never did take full responsibility for lives of his men or other people for that matter, everything he did was to aquire kingship.

he still seeks her to marry her cuz he wants to be king 
Right, I can´t say she´s anything more to him than a tool now (to legally gain throne of Midland in future).

One more thing - there is quite a number of similar threads on this board, try to use search button next time pal.

P.S.: This is my first post on the board so hi guys :serpico: and sorry for my mediocre english.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Was a new thread really necessary? As Michael said, it has been discussed so many times already, we're just going to repeat things that were already said.

willowhugger said:
Griffith is a sociopath

I don't think the concept of sociopath applies here, it doesn't appear as very pertinent to me in the context. Griffith shows emotions and guilt at various point in the manga, like when the kid that wanted to become a knight is killed, that's probably what triggered him to sleep with Gennon to get more funds for his army. There are various moments and scenes showing that while Griffith tried to suppress his own emotions, he was still human and cared a minimum about people. That includes the scene where he asks Guts if he finds him horrible for example, and the best example is of course the feelings he had for Guts and that led to his decision to sacrifice his men. Casca wasn't fooled by Griffith's cold behavior, that's why she blames Guts at the waterfall.

Griffith had a goal and was willing to do everything to succeed, he was an extremely ambitious person. Let's also not forget that his life was planned from the very beginning so that he'd become Femto, or that he was manipulated by the God Hand during the Occultation.

willowhugger said:
It's also entirely possible that he was moved by the devotion that Charlotte showed him.

While his feelings for Charlotte aren't known, his general philosophy of life leads me to think that he didn't have much affection for her. Going to her room and making love to her like he did further indicates that he used her like a tool to ease his frustration at the time.

willowhugger said:
It's also difficult to say that even if Griffith were a sociopath in his original body that he wouldn't be not necessarily capable of love and affection in his new body (made from Casca and Guts). This doesn't change I believe that Griffith is evil but he's an evil capable of good, which makes it all the darker.

I don't think you understand that part the way it's meant to be. It's a bit more complicated that what you make it sound like. It could be just your wording, but the way you present things might be confusing IMHO.

willowhugger said:
I tend to fall on the idea that Griffith is/was actually not that evil by comparison to the majority of people in Berserk

Well, he certainly wasn't driven by anything but his own interest. That doesn't make him more evil that the average person in Berserk, but he's still done more than one reprehensible thing.

willowhugger said:
Elves like Puck don't have much in the way of viewpoints that allow them to percieve just how dark humanity's lives are.

Elves can sense human feelings, they're the best as far as understanding people goes in that regard, even if they are rather easy going themselves. :puck: Puck knows best about Guts' life and the tragedy of it, and if you think his life was always a piece of cake, remember how he was introduced in volume 1.

willowhugger said:
Griffith in my estimation considered the band with affection but kept his emotional distance for purely sensible reasons. The Band of the Hawk was a mercenary group and everyone could get killed at more or less any given time.

Yeah, that's pretty much it IMO.

willowhugger said:
Cause, frankly, after his rebirth...he doesn't need her anymore yet apparently still seeks her.

Don't think Griffith after his incarnation is anything like the original, humanity wise. He's still Femto, only with a body. And as fuxberg says, he rescued her and keeps her close for a reason. We don't have any indication concerning his real feelings for her, but I doubt he overly cares.

Michael said:
This is my first post on the board so hi guys :serpico:

Hi Michael! Welcome aboard! :guts:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
welcome to the board, Michael

1st post and you're already recommending the search function, huh? You're off to a good start! :troll:
 
Seems like my manners made a good first impression :puck: Anyway, thanks for hearty welcome guys, I´m going to become worthy member of Skullknight.net
 
The topic seems decidedly different and to try and put it under another topic like whether he loved Charlotte or whether Griffith was good seemed to be something that would deeply fail to do the topic justice.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
willowhugger said:
The topic seems decidedly different and to try and put it under another topic like whether he loved Charlotte or whether Griffith was good seemed to be something that would deeply fail to do the topic justice.

There are really a lot of topics about this, with discussions evolving inside and all, I doubt you wouldn't have been able to tweak your post a little bit to incorporate it in one of them. No big deal anyway. Though, about Griffith being good or bad and loving Charlotte, isn't that what you're addressing? Subtle nuances and different wording, but in the end it's not dissimilar.

No big deal as I said, but if possible it's always better to concentrate the discussions in one thread when they turn around the same thing, it's better and easier to find for future reference.
 
I just don't see Griffith as caring for Charlotte in any significant way. As Aazealh said:
Going to her room and making love to her like he did further indicates that he used her like a tool to ease his frustration at the time.
I was never struck by his having sex with here as being very meaningful event, I think he showed more "affection" toward her when they were at the fox hunt together (vol. 6 is it?) as opposed to that night. Eh I don't have time to finish my thought right now...
 

Hatter

Member
Griffith the human is quite complicated - I don't think he feigned all of his emotions, but he was very self-aware. He was so self-absorbed that he didn't even realize it... like a spoiled child. His little skin-ripping bit after sleeping with Gennon seemed more like a stunt to attract attention than a real expression of his feelings. He never really felt his emotions naturally, he chose every single one. Not in an analytical way like Spock, or in a particularly malicious way just whatever worked at the moment. Look at when he kissed Charlotte - that wasn't passion, that was a deliberate decision. You could see him weighing the consequences for that one moment.

That said, I think Guts did take him by suprise a few times, and let a bit of real emotion through - but I still kinda feel that he only really looked at Guts as a novelty - he was probably slightly amused at how Guts could distract him. Whether that brewed into something deeper, like love or hate, I'm not quite sure yet.

Griffith thinks in a way unlike any other human being, but I got a feeling that he was quite disconnected from real humanity. I don't think Guts ever truly brought him back to reality.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Hatter said:
His little skin-ripping bit after sleeping with Gennon seemed more like a stunt to attract attention than a real expression of his feelings. He never really felt his emotions naturally, he chose every single one.

I don't that was a cry for attention. And I think that was genuine emotion. He was conflicted between what he wanted to do and what he felt the hawks (and ultimately his dream) demanded.

Hatter said:
Look at when he kissed Charlotte - that wasn't passion, that was a deliberate decision. You could see him weighing the consequences for that one moment.

Again, I disagree. While I agree that there wasn't "passion" towards Charlotte, I don't think he was thinking well enough to properly weigh the consequences of his actions.

Hatter said:
That said, I think Guts did take him by suprise a few times, and let a bit of real emotion through - but I still kinda feel that he only really looked at Guts as a novelty - he was probably slightly amused at how Guts could distract him. Whether that brewed into something deeper, like love or hate, I'm not quite sure yet.

Griffith thinks in a way unlike any other human being, but I got a feeling that he was quite disconnected from real humanity. I don't think Guts ever truly brought him back to reality.

In many ways I feel the same way, that he was not only viewed as separate from humanity, that his dream demanded that he exist on that separate plane. The question is whether or not Griffith was happy with being on this pedestal. It was Guts who humanized him. To everyone (including Guts), Griffith was exalted and without peer. However, I think its clear that Griffith didn't see himself this way when he was with Guts. It was this relationship that made Griffith say Guts had "made him forget his dream".
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Hatter said:
His little skin-ripping bit after sleeping with Gennon seemed more like a stunt to attract attention than a real expression of his feelings. [...] He never really felt his emotions naturally, he chose every single one.

I can't say I agree with either of these statements. I don't see how ripping his skin after sleeping with Gennon would be to attract attention (from whom too? Casca? He didn't need that), and he definitely didn't "choose" his emotions as far as I can tell, that's what caused his downfall (besides, that'd be presuming a bit of his abilities, IMO).
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
Aazealh said:
I can't say I agree with either of these statements. I don't see how ripping his skin after sleeping with Gennon would be to attract attention (from whom too? Casca? He didn't need that), and he definitely didn't "choose" his emotions as far as I can tell, that's what caused his downfall (besides, that'd be presuming a bit of his abilities, IMO).
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the first point, Aaz. There was a certain amount of uncertainty, not from Griffith, but from Casca. She was bewildered and confused because, for the first time, she had seen what kind of sacrifices Griffith was willing to make for his 'dream'. Moreover, Griffith pointed out that this was a decision he had made, not based on guilt over a death he had inadvertently caused, but out of cold, ruthless calculation ("Which is the lesser risk: to go to battle ten times and lose hundreds of men or to seduce one old man?") Casca wasn't stupid: she could put two and two together. If she couldn't Griffith never would have promoted her to such a high position, seniority or not.Moreover,if Griffith had lied about why he had made the decision, Casca might have seen through it. Griffith needed to reassure her that he was only playing at being the cold, calculating general, while 'in reality' he was a 'lost little boy'.

Admittedly, the 'Griffith is a sociopath' argument is more palatable with regard to the GH ceremony, since the distance in ethical values required for him to sacrifice his own men would be considerably less. That is why I tend to accept it. Contrariwise, the fact that Ubik had to frame his life in just such a light as to show how he had already made the choice (sacrificing his men to become king) lends considerable weight to the argument that he was not a sociopath, but was only insane after his confinement in the Tower of Rebirth. As I said in another thread, long ago, Miura has given himself a great deal of authorial power with the use of Idea and causality: basically, everything in the story must fit, no matter how incongruous, becaue Idea tweaked causality to work that way.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Trashcan said:
There was a certain amount of uncertainty, not from Griffith, but from Casca. She was bewildered and confused because, for the first time, she had seen what kind of sacrifices Griffith was willing to make for his 'dream'.

Yeah, but he had all her attention beforehand, so I still don't see how that's supposed to be to attract attention. :schierke: And it's not like she was going to stop worshipping him because of it, she was even willing to think she had been mistaken before he confirmed it. Plus at that time she didn't have an especially high rank, Griffith didn't have to give her answers if he didn't want to.

Trashcan said:
Moreover, Griffith pointed out that this was a decision he had made, not based on guilt over a death he had inadvertently caused, but out of cold, ruthless calculation

Yeah, and he lied about that, consciously or not.

Trashcan said:
Casca wasn't stupid: she could put two and two together. If she couldn't Griffith never would have promoted her to such a high position, seniority or not.Moreover,if Griffith had lied about why he had made the decision, Casca might have seen through it.

And you think she didn't? Think of the context when she's relating this story, she tells Guts that Griffith needs people to support him and his dream, that Griffith needs Guts, and she specifically mentions the dead kid on the battlefield (she even tells Guts that Griffith was sad). She then goes on to say that Griffith put himself in danger because of Guts. There's a relation here, a parallel, it's not random. Griffith slept with Gennon to get money, but the death of that boy played a big part in deciding it, and ripping his own skin as he talks sure isn't the best way to look like a cold and distant, reassuring general... So I don't really know how that works with what you said. Anyway, his look as he does it (not unlike how he's represented after Guts leaves) should be enough to indicate that it's genuine, IMHO.

Trashcan said:
Admittedly, the 'Griffith is a sociopath' argument is more palatable with regard to the GH ceremony, since the distance in ethical values required for him to sacrifice his own men would be considerably less.

I don't see how it's more palatable in regard to the Occultation to be honest, if anything the context disproves it IMHO. A broken and tortured man with nothing left to live with (that tried to kill himself 5 minutes before), manipulated and given a surreal chance to start over as a demi-god by having "friends" he thought had betrayed him quickly killed off by monsters... Sociopath? I think it's out of the term's reach. A lot of people admitted they'd do the same in an old thread around here, and that was while being totally cool headed.
 
Guts also rips at the skin of his arms as he's declaring that he doesn't care if villagers die because of what he's done -- I don't think that was a drama queen moment any more than Griffith's. That scene with Guts comes, I think, in the very first volume. It's not an exact parallel, but close enough that the only conclusion I took away from each scene is that both men were lying to themselves about their feelings of guilt and resonsibility. I can't imagine what else Miura was trying to tell us. For the most part, he's a straightforward storyteller; he's really not into twisty red herrings and tricking the readers.

I always thought the river scene with Griffith was crucial to understanding his rationale in sacrificing the Hawks. The GH take what is an admirable sentiment -- that Griffith can't do anything for the dead, but if he becomes king then at least their deaths will not have been for nothing -- and turn that against him. Griffith isn't driven to achieve his dreams only because he wants to be a king really, really bad, but also because it's his obligation to win for those who've died in his service.

As for Griffith's feelings for Charlotte, it's hard with to tell with him where the play-acting ends and the real emotions begin. He didn't love her, yet he seemed to have felt some kind of affinity for her. He opens up to only three people in the story: Casca, Guts, and Charlotte. Probably for different reasons, but he still does it.

He of course sees Charlotte as a tool and a means to an end, and her blind adoration of him makes it easy for him to manipulate her. There were moments when it seemed he felt a twinge of guilt or regret for seducing Charlotte. It doesn't stop him, but it's not as if he's unaware that what he's done is wrong. At the same time, he's aware enough of his actions and the potential of hurting her -- and yes, tarnishing her adoration of him -- that he makes sure to give her a good time in bed and leaves behind flowers and the knight pendant. She certainly perceived the flowers and pendant as a romantic gesture, and all her blushes and smiles the next morning is enough to tell me Griffith studied his library books quite thoroughly...

When the king points out in the dungeon how Griffith has betrayed his trust, Griffith knows better than to deny it. Some of that silence can be interpreted as Griffith acknowledging he's made huge mistakes, including misreading the king's true personality. Still, my sense is that Griffith isn't proud of what he did with Charlotte any more than he was of selling himself to Gennon. I just think he liked Charlotte more than he liked Gennon. :)

I sometimes wonder if Griffith didn't feel an affinity for Charlotte simply because her position as a princess kept her apart from others, the same way his position as leader of the Hawks put him at a distance from his men. It's lonely at the top; Casca even spells that out for Guts. Griffith also seemed to care when Charlotte took a poisoned dart meant for him.

What Griffith feels for Charlotte now is anybody's guess. I doubt his character will remain static between now and the end of the story; he'll be changing. If nothing else, residing in a flesh-and-blood body again is going to open him up to all the weaknesses of the flesh, mainly those pesky feelings that got him into trouble in the first place. Could be that's something Femto failed to take into consideration.

But then I like Griffith, so I don't see him as just the bad guy Guts has to kill at the end.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
miurafan said:
residing in a flesh-and-blood body again is going to open him up to all the weaknesses of the flesh, mainly those pesky feelings that got him into trouble in the first place. Could be that's something Femto failed to take into consideration.
Well, Griffith specifically says that he visited Guts at the Hill of Swords to see if he felt anything in his new body, and he didn't ("It seems I am now free"). It would seem he did indeed have foresight into his emotional capacity, and nipped the possibility in the bud. The Demon Child's grip on him seems to be the only real chance of emotion.

But I agree, he has to develop to be interesting.
 
I want to mention also over here the possibility that Griffith could have lied to himself about the source (demon child) that made his heart beat for Guts.


In fact the first time Griffith thinks of the demon child, that thought is clearly a product of Griffith's mental progress. The demon child seems to be just a thing of his memory, being depicted with it's eyes close as it was in the egg apostle's belly. And he isn't even sure himself :he says "perhaps..."

On the other hand, the second time we see the demon child (this time because of Casca), it is with it's eyes open. Griffith thinks nothing at that point. It seems that the demon child is alive and active. The fact that the heart beat is due to the demon child seems definately true in this case. But the first case doesn't seem exactly the same as this one.
It is a possibility...
 
Walter said:
Well, Griffith specifically says that he visited Guts at the Hill of Swords to see if he felt anything in his new body, and he didn't ("It seems I am now free"). It would seem he did indeed have foresight into his emotional capacity, and nipped the possibility in the bud.

I agree Femto was aware his new body would cause him to feel again and he wanted to take it for a test drive to check for any weak spots -- and right off, he runs into an unexpected glitch. This is why, I think, I find that scene more ambiguous. While Griffith says he seems free, what he does shows otherwise, even though he blames his reactions on the influence of demon baby. Whatever the exact cause of those feelings, it's not something he welcomes.

The Demon Child's grip on him seems to be the only real chance of emotion.

Maybe, maybe not. Or it could be the baby's part is to provide the seeds of real emotion. Moving into speculation territory, and veering off-topic sorry, there's a few little things that have me wondering if Femto miscalculated the side-effects of residing again in a flesh-and-blood body.

Slan comments on how pleasurable it was to inhabit a body again, even if it was a body was made of troll guts. Without a body, perhaps Femto lost all reference points regarding the physical. If he could no longer remember (or care) what pleasure felt like, then when he experiences it again in his new body, even little pleasures are magnified. He rediscovers that...cake tastes really, really good, for instance.

Regarding Xechnao's comment, sure, it's possible the demon baby has nothing to do with Griffith's feelings. Griffith wants it to be the child; if it's not, the alternative is problematic. But I doubt this is the case. Like I said, Miura isn't a "tricky" writer; he's more into teasing hints than misleads. If Griffith believes it's the baby's influence causing him to feel, that's probably what it is.

Still, I think it's worth keeping in mind that the demon child's influence, along with the unpredictability and intensity of flesh-and-blood physical sensations and feelings, could be enough to reawaken emotions and/or a conscience and send this character, and the story, into a few unexpected directions.

I also could be totally wrong. It's just something I've been wondering about for a while.

But I agree, he has to develop to be interesting.

And I believe he will. Looking back at this story, there are a number of hints that lead me to wonder if Griffith could even regain some sympathy by the end. Miura has invested a lot of time and care into building this character, especially in providing motivation for why Griffith sacrifices the Hawks. To take the easy way out with Griffith doesn't seem like something Miura would do after all that.

And I can't forget how many monsters in this story have had genuine redemptive or sympathetic moments -- and unlike Griffith, they were minor characters. In keeping with this, more recent volumes have shown a number of apostles that are more humanized, though Zodd was an exception from the start. Why else have Irvine drape his coat over Sonja -- she's asleep and they're alone -- except to show he's capable of compassion?

Whatever Miura's planning, it's going to involve lots of pain and loss (no surprise there) and I can't see Griffith being exempt from this. Part of the emotional payoff for his eventual fall -- yes, I'm assuming that he will fail in the end -- is that it will hurt him. For that to happen, though, he has to have something to lose that will cause him pain. If he doesn't open up to emotions first, he can't feel the pain or despair of losing.
 
miurafan said:
Regarding Xechnao's comment, sure, it's possible the demon baby has nothing to do with Griffith's feelings. Griffith wants it to be the child; if it's not, the alternative is problematic. But I doubt this is the case. Like I said, Miura isn't a "tricky" writer; he's more into teasing hints than misleads. If Griffith believes it's the baby's influence causing him to feel, that's probably what it is.

But it's Griffith that wants to trick himself here, not Miura his readers. How would you depict Griffith tricking himself without assuming a narrative stance but instead keep with a first person view?
 
xechnao said:
But it's Griffith that wants to trick himself here, not Miura his readers. How would you depict Griffith tricking himself without assuming a narrative stance but instead keep with a first person view?

All I said was that it's a possibility Griffith is deluding himself, not presenting it as fact. Nothing wrong with seeing something as a possibility, even if it's an unlikely one.

Griffith thinking about the demon child is a different situation from the scene where he's gouging his arms in the river. The disconnect in the latter, between what he's doing and what he's saying, is what tells us he's not being honest with himself (same holds true for Guts when he does it.) In the Hill of Swords scene, Griffith isn't really denying his feelings; he acknowledges it to himself internally and tries to figure out how and why -- and settles on the most obvious conclusion, which is the demon child's influence.

The one time we get a deliberate mislead was the King of Midland, his obsession with his daughter and how his benevolent personality hid something much darker. The only way to deliver the shocker that the king was kinda unbalanced was to have him suddenly snap in the dungeon. I don't know about you, but that took me completely by surprise.

Anyway, the root of Griffith's little bitty feelings is a puzzle, not a mislead, even more so with the Moon Child putting in an appearance. The baby has figured into both Griffith's and Guts's thoughts, so now it's just a matter of seeing how it all fits together. Just about everything concerning Griffith is a puzzle, rather than a mislead. We don't know what he thinking, what he's feeling, the scope of his powers, so it's all guessing. Everything I rambled about regarding growing emotions or a conscience is just guessing. I like speculating, but don't get too worked up about being right or wrong. It's not my story, I'm just along for the ride.
 
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