Forgiveness

Status
Not open for further replies.

puella

Berserk forever
Lately a strange movie is getting people's attention here in Korea.
this movie is about really bad guy who mercilessly and entirely ruins an innocent girl's life just because he loves her.
Her life is literally fucked up.
At the end of the movie, it implies the girl opens her mind and forgive him.
This movie makes me think of 'forgiveness'
Of course, it is clear Guts can't forgive Griffith. Never!
but I'd think it is possible a little bit if Caska were not insane, she might choose to forgive Griffth not because once she loved him, but because she hates a revenge on him.
I guess Guts may forgive Griffith as well at the end.
and if Griffith were reversely in Guts' position, he would be the same thing, I think.

If somebody does really bad things to you in your real life, how'd you react?
Which one do you think is right, revenge or forgiveness ?
this thought has always taken up my mind for a long time.
I want your opinion relating to Guts and Griffith.
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
It is a very hard question. You see a thing is to post to a forum, another enterily to live it in real life. Here, in Italy,we say "nemico assente, coraggio presente" meaning: everyone is a hero when there is no danger. It would be easy for me tell you that Caska should forgive because she is noble, the virtue of forginess and so on when myself wanted to kill my barber for a slight that was not even there. So i will pass. It is bigger than me.
 

Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
For what?

Defeating him?

It seems pretty weak of Griffith to blame Guts for his fall. Guts didn't force him at swordpoint to seduce Charlotte and forget his dream. If Griffith was THAT strong, he'd go over and plant a big ol' kiss on Guts' lips and said, "Don't leave!"

At which point we would all put down the manga/anime and run away screaming.
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
For what?

Defeating him?

It seems pretty weak of Griffith to blame Guts for his fall. Guts didn't force him at swordpoint to seduce Charlotte and forget his dream. If Griffith was THAT strong, he'd go over and plant a big ol' kiss on Guts' lips and said, "Don't leave!"

At which point we would all put down the manga/anime and run away screaming.
Not at all. It was something that everyone did suspect. Infact a certain forum should be renamed: Gutts life and the man and woman in it
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
For what?

Defeating him?

It seems pretty weak of Griffith to blame Guts for his fall. Guts didn't force him at swordpoint to seduce Charlotte and forget his dream. If Griffith was THAT strong, he'd go over and plant a big ol' kiss on Guts' lips and said, "Don't leave!"

At which point we would all put down the manga/anime and run away screaming.

Run screaming?? Not me...

That was most likely the sweetest thing I've read in a long time *smiles*. But alas... Griffith would never get down from his high horse and do that.

Gatts abandoned him.

That's his crime... and Griffith's pride... seems enourmous when it comes to things like that. Nothing hurts like spurned love, ne? Especially if you never got the guts to do anything about it, just putting it off until tomorrow.

I've never made it a secret that my ideal happy ending is a reconciliation between Gatts/Griffith/Casca in the end. A happy threesome. But... only in my dreams.

Forgiveness: Well, shit... that was a hard one. Speaking for myself... I don't know. I know I would never forgive a person I didn't know that well, if that one hurt me real bad. But... if one of my dearest friends did? Hell... I've never been betrayed by any of my REAL friends. Because there's just two of them. Yeah, I have lots of aquaintances, people I have fun with, hang out with. But REAL friends, that's rare. I just don't trust people. Forgive my aquaintances? I already have, on several occasions. They're morons after all, and can't really be responsible for their actions. Since I don't trust them, I can't be hurt that bad by them. My REAL friends? Okay... hands down. One of them... I would probably forgive even if he did something really shitty. probably... but it depends. The other? Yes. I would. Because there's not much in the world I would deny him. I'd kill for him, I'd die for him. Perhaps that's why I understand Casca so well at times... Except that my 'Griffith' would do the same for me, so it's not as one sided. So yeah, I'd forgive him.

Okay, back to berserk.

Casca? I think she would forgive Griffith. She'd be mad as hell at him, but in the end, he's her life. Has been, will be.

Gatts? Oooo tough one. I would have said no, but just look at Gatts face during the rebirth. Is that anger? Nope. My guess is that some of his internal demons right now is coming out because he is still angry at Griffith, wanting his vengance, but at the same time he's just as afraid of letting go... and admit that he really misses him. His hatred is all he got. I'd say that... Gatts might possibly forgive him, if he comes to the conclusion that Griffith is not the same man that raped Casca. He could use Femto, and Griffith's manipulation, as an excuse and turn his hatred against Idea instead... as the one behind it all. After all... remember the scene when Griffith and Gatts met, the fight, the humiliation, the dislocated shoulder. Gatts didn't carry his grudge that long... this is a different scale, but still.

Griffith? Can he forgive Gatts for abandoning him and loving Casca instead of him? Or Casca for loving Gatts? Shit... I think he's the one of them that has the least forgiveness in his body. He's way to emotional and tightly wound for his own good. The one thing that might happen is if he can admit to himself that he actually cares about other people. That he loves Gatts, and cares for Casca. If he can do that... then he'd realize that it was his fault all along... and that he's got nothing to forgive anyone for. But will he ever get to that point? I doubt it... not for long anyway.
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
Gutts is out to avenge the Hawks and I do not think he will forgive Griffith. How could he? How could anyone? Griffith sacrificed a group of honest, loyal and trustworthy men in order to realize his own ambition. That is pure evil. Back in the 3rd volume, Gutts was so overwhelmed with fury towards Femto that he would have killed him on the spot if it weren't for Femto's awesome power. During Griffith's rebirth, Gutts was shocked to see Griffith for the first time since the eclipse, but after coming to his senses, his rage resurfaced, but was stopped by Zodd.

Let me put it to you this way....Gutts' zealous quest for vengeance is only equaled to Griffiths desire to fore fill his dream. I'm talking JUSTICE here people.
 

Chinmi

The best defense is a good offence!
Guts forgive Griffith!?! No chance in hell!!!!!!! Griffith is beyond forgivieness

Even if Griffith admitt he was wrong, that isn't good enough.

U think if Griffith said:
"Gee, I'm sorry I kill all your friends, screw up your girlfriend and took your arm away."

And they become friends again!?! FUCK THAT!!!




Why the hell should Guts say sorry to Griffith? If it weren't for him, the Hawks wouldn't be successful. Guts have the right to leave the Hawks and Griffith should respect that if he was his TRUE friend. Guts doesn't owe Griffith anything. Griffith should have get on his goddam knees and beg Guts to stay.

At the time when he left, the hawks didn't need him to fight anymore. It's not like he run off as coward. He stay until the war was over. It was Griffith owe fault that he got torture for a whole year. He should have wait till the King gives approval to allow Charolete to marry him which was very likly going to happen in the future. Everything was all set.

......BUT being the dirty piece of shit that Griffith is, he doesn't handle losing easy so he screw everything up and then kills everybody to get back at Guts for his sick desire to see people suffer.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Well, the other stuff I’m not even going to touch with a 10 foot pole, but this…

......BUT being the dirty piece of shit that Griffith is, he doesn't handle losing easy so he screw everything up and then kills everybody to get back at Guts for his sick desire to see people suffer.
That is just a lie, Griffith always hated it that people suffered because of his dream, it’s something Miura made a big point of. Do people really need to accentuate the bad things Griffith has done with fallacies? I mean, it’s pretty bad stuff on it’s own merits. Conversely, do people need to hide or deny the bad things Guts has done himself, I mean, nobody seems to care very much that he just TRIED TO RAPE CASCA!

Its good to see someone who understands the complexity of characters that Miura creates.
What complexity? Griffith is the original evil man and Guts is a motherfucking true blue super hero, fighting for justice and the Midland way! Griffith is like cancer, and Guts is…uhh...whatever it is that cures cancer!! The last chapter of Berserk will be Guts stabbing Griffith in the back, then Guts will yell, “Gotchya Sucka!!!”, that will be the only dialogue in the chapter. Then it will say THE END in big letters, but with a question mark, so that Berserk 2: The Adventures of Zepec can come out! It will all be so meaningful, you’ll shit your pants!

-Griffith
 

Chinmi

The best defense is a good offence!
That is just a lie, Griffith alwaysRe: forgiveness

Does anyone get offended when I swear and/or talk trash to Griffith?

Gezz man, I know Griffith is very charming looking guy to some in this board but look what he did!!!  Its very simple.  Griffith is the bad guy and Guts is the so-so good guy.  

Actually, the closet character to a good guy is Pippen adn Judo.  Shit, I miss that little guy. :'(

That is just a lie, Griffith always hated it that people suffered because of his dream, it’s something Miura made a big point of.  Do people really need to accentuate the bad things Griffith has done with fallacies? I mean, it’s pretty bad stuff on it’s own merits.

Ok, that is debatable but why did he go as far as raping Caska infront of Guts (probably torture Guts further)  and not give her a quick death instead (that would be really bad). Well, whatever it is, the point is that what Griffith did was wrong and can't be forgivien.

Conversely, do people need to hide or deny the bad things Guts has done himself, I mean, nobody seems to care very much that he just TRIED TO RAPE CASCA!

Yeah, what Guts did was wrong.  I guess he was under alot of mental stress and just flipped out.  But still, that is no way to treat a lady.

The last chapter of Berserk will be Guts stabbing Griffith in the back, then Guts will yell, “Gotchya Sucka!!!”, that will be the only dialogue in the chapter. Then it will say THE END in big letters, but with a question mark, so that Berserk 2: The Adventures of Zepec can come out! It will all be so meaningful, you’ll shit your pants!

I'll leave Muira to decide what fate Griffith will face.  Who's Zepec?  Gut's son?  
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
I mean, nobody seems to care very much that he just TRIED TO RAPE CASCA!
-Griffith

Oh no, you got to understand something here. Gatts tried to rape and kill Casca in a many way. Yes, very macho and all. He did not resort to cheap tricks like tentacles and most important od all:

He did not threaten people's sexuality! Griffith is... icky... right?

And of course Gatts failed.... and a failed rape is not as awful as a consummated one.

*grins* I'm being ironic...
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Does anyone get offended when I swear and/or talk trash to Griffith?
To the point where you modify the story as Miura has written, yes. I don’t care if you trash Griffith or think he’s a shithead, but don’t cut his character short as just a bad guy that does bad thing because he’s bad.  Griffith isn’t just some malicious one-dimensional villain that’s out to hurt people, just like Guts, who is more than just a virtuous one-dimensional hero, he’s a complex character with many layers and shades. I think their relationship throughout the rest of the series is going to be much more than just hero vs. villain, because they are both more than that, Miura said it himself, “Guts and Griffith’s relationship is only just beginning”.  So, they are definitely going to go through some complicated shit with each other. ;D

-Griffith

P.S. Zepec is Jill’s lout of a father, but more than that, he’s the Berserk everyman!  And Miura has already expressed great interest in NOT doing a story about him. Speaking of which, didn’t Miura say he might do some short stories about Judeau and other members of the Hawks when the series is over (I think I remember Olivier mentioning this a while back).
 

puella

Berserk forever
P.S. Zepec is Jill’s lout of a father, but more than that, he’s the Berserk everyman!  And Miura has already expressed great interest in NOT doing a story about him. Speaking of which, didn’t Miura say he might do some short stories about Judeau and other members of the Hawks when the series is over (I think I remember Olivier mentioning this a while back).
o.k Griffith, if I had a talent for writing, I 'd make a new story about the followings.

1) Theresia's horrible revenge on Guts
2) Puck's love for a female elf
3) Zepec's past days when he was a soldier
4) Judeau's future(supposing he's not dead)
5) Corkus became the captain of new Hawk -_-;;
6) Reborn Slann into the world
7) Skullknight's past when he was Gaiseric
who did he love? what the hell is relationship with Void?
8 ) Conrad and Ubik

:D
 
P.S. Zepec is Jill’s lout of a father, but more than that, he’s the Berserk everyman!  And Miura has already expressed great interest in NOT doing a story about him. Speaking of which, didn’t Miura say he might do some short stories about Judeau and other members of the Hawks when the series is over (I think I remember Olivier mentioning this a while back).

Weird, I was wondering if he would do just that (prequel type stuff) after Berserk is finished. I think it's safe to say they would be pretty popular after everyone is going through the withdrawal stage.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Weird, I was wondering if he would do just that (prequel type stuff) after Berserk is finished. I think it's safe to say they would be pretty popular after everyone is going through the withdrawal stage.
But does Miura WANT to do prequel stuff? hes been doing Berserk for over 10 years...He does want to start a new series you know... I personally would rather him move on. Thats just my opinion anyway.
 

Graywords

Bettychu, I choose YOU!
Let's see... forgiveness and revenge...

I see a lot of "oh, Guts will never forgive Griffith" sentiment...

Fact: Griffith became Femto and did horrible things to Caska in front of Guts.

Fact: Guts was beyond peeved at this (not to mention the sacrifice of the Hawks) and attempted to splatter Femto on more than one occasion.

This suggests Guts' desire for revenge, yes. But what about after the rebirth? He did try to attack Griffith, but didn't he mention something about "losing the will to fight" after seeing Griffith again?

Does Guts see Griffith and Femto as two separate entities, or as the same person? It's true that he never uses the name Femto, always just "Griffith". But I'm almost certain the two of them are very separated in his mind, judging from his unconscious reactions to both forms as shown in the manga. Maybe his revenge instincts only stem from Femto...

Also, does Guts have a clear-cut goal right now, a reason for heading to Elfhame? I know he wants to find a way to keep himself and Caska safe, but I'm not sure if he had any plans for Griffith anymore. That may change after Elfhame, but who knows at this point...

Of course, the precarious situation between Guts and Caska doesn't help much... all the more reason that Guts' sights may turn toward Griffith again after gaining information at Elfhame.

Also, just through natural story progression, obviously *something* needs to bring Guts to Griffith (or vice versa) again at some point, and Elfhame is a good candidate for being that catalyst.

But whatever the reason they meet up, it isn't going to be for revenge... (unless Elfhame is slaughtered and Puck becomes insane and bloodthirsty =D)

It'll be for some other reason contrived at Elfhame, more than likely.

Or maybe instead, we'll just get another "two years later" deal =p~

On another point, I don't think Griffith desires revenge on Guts either. Yes, Guts made Griffith forget his dream, and yes, Griffith tried to strangle Guts when he rescued the no-longer-prettyboy from confinement. Personally I think his actions as Femto were all necessary to achieve his dream, and therefore could almost be considered proof of his friendship towards Guts, as twisted as that sounds. ^_^; I think it's quite possible Femto would've left Guts and Caska alive, even if Skully didn't interfere.

Of course, it's possible that Femto WAS taking his revenge on Guts during Caska's rape... after reading Olivier's translation of Chapter 83, I'm thinking that God Hand, being closely knit with Idea, may be the personification of a person's darkest inner emotions. Griffith says that he feels this within him... and it's likely that Femto is *his* darkest inner emotions personified. If that's the case, his rape of Caska may well have been vengeance against Guts.

But either way, Griffith doesn't desire anything like that in his current state. He came back to see if he had any remaining feelings for Guts, but he did not. Apparently neither negative nor positive... nothing weighing him down and keeping him from accomplishing his dream.

Now we just have to wait and see if that changes.
 

trapped_soul

"This is it. It's over."
But does Miura WANT to do prequel stuff? hes been doing Berserk for over 10 years...He does want to start a new series you know... I personally would rather him move on. Thats just my opinion anyway.
miura said he doesn't like the idea of being unable to finish berserk due to starting another project. he said he wants to finish berserk in order to be able to concentrate on another thing.
i don't think he plans to do prequel stuff.
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
I agree completely with you Graywords... except that perhaps it was an attempt at caressing Gatts, instead of strangling him? Dunno...
hard to tell. Perhaps even Griffith didn't know...

But either way, Griffith doesn't desire anything like that in his current state.  He came back to see if he had any remaining feelings for Guts, but he did not.  Apparently neither negative nor positive... nothing weighing him down and keeping him from accomplishing his dream.

Now we just have to wait and see if that changes.

Hmmmm if we believe him that is. Right now I think Griffith does not want any emotions at all. They are in the way. Wonder how long he can keep them pinned down, he didn't save casca for nothing, and if he really wanted to be sure that his plans were to succeed Gatts would be better off dead, right?

But... Griffith couldn't do that. Can't wait to see what happens...
 

Chinmi

The best defense is a good offence!
Speaking of which, didn’t Miura sayRe: forgi


Griffith isn’t just some malicious one-dimensional villain that’s out to hurt people, just like Guts, who is more than just a virtuous one-dimensional hero, he’s a complex character with many layers and shades. I think their relationship throughout the rest of the series is going to be much more than just hero vs. villain, because they are both more than that, Miura said it himself, “Guts and Griffith’s relationship is only just beginning”. So, they are definitely going to go through some complicated shit with each other.

Ok, I see your point. Griffith is basically a wierdo.


Speaking of which, didn’t Miura say he might do some short stories about Judeau and other members of the Hawks when the series is over (I think I remember Olivier mentioning this a while back).


I would like to know more about Judeau because he is one of my favorite Berserk character. He use to be in the circuis, right? When the series is over, I would to see that Guts legacy live on with a son. That would be a nice ending.
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
"Re forgiveness

Gatts abandoned him.
Yes he did we all know that , but...why?because... because Gatts loved him or better because he wanted love him. You see to love each other two persons need one thing: to be able to look one other in the eyes and to do that the two of them have be on the same level. Not one above and the  other down, that never works. Griffith , or least I think so, considered Gatts is equal the only man he, perharps , could sacrifice his dream perhars and only then. Not so Gatts. For him Griffith was above, he HAD to reach him. But he couldn't do so if he remained in the hawks. He HAD to go and then when he was the equal of Griffith return. This Griffith didn't understood, how could he? and that was, how we well know, his downfall. The rape of Caska was not the rape of Caska at all. It was the rape of Gatts:"Look my love how I treat your...YOU should be here... but I can't ... not to you ....not in front of those beasts...". So will Gatts forgive him? He loves him. Sure their love will be consumed with steel and blood, yet...
 

puella

Berserk forever
Re: "Re forgiveness

The rape of Caska was not the rape of Caska at all. It was the rape of Gatts:"Look my love how I treat your...YOU should be here... but I can't ... not to you ....not in front of those beasts...". So will Gatts forgive him? He loves him. Sure their love will be consumed with steel and blood, yet...
That's what I thought, too. To rape Caska in front of Guts' eyes is all the same as he himself is raped by Femto.

Guts;
1)lost his all friends
2)lost his arm and right eye
3)lost his good human nature almost which was being recovered by relationship with Caska and the Hawk members
4)the same as raped by Femto

but you know our Guts is the one who resists his severe fate.
Once Griffith(on this board) said like this, of the main characters
Guts is the only one fighting his causality on the contrary of Griffith and Caska.
Griffith is the one who has a strong fixation on his dream which he believes it's his fate. Caska, usless to say, is just a poor sacrifice till now after the eclipse.

In this point, the two guys are destined to be antagonistic to either of them.

So "forgiveness" which I said above is like Guts will understand what Griffith's fate is and once Guts himself was the only one who might change Griffith's fate.
and in the end of scene, Guts also will realize he totally tips over fate of dream of his ex-friend's after all.
that's what I said "forgiveness"
It's not like that "hey, old buddy, I was wrong. Sorry"
"Ok.forget it. don't do like that next time .we're friends again"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom