Forgiveness

Re: "Re forgiveness

That's what I thought, too. To rape Caska in front of Guts' eyes is all the same as he himself is raped by Femto.

Guts;
1)lost his all friends
2)lost his arm and right eye
3)lost his good human nature almost which was being recovered by relationship with Caska and the Hawk members
4)the same as raped by Femto

but you know our Guts is the one who resists his severe fate.
Once Griffith(on this board) said like this, of the main characters
Guts is the only one fighting his causality on the contrary of Griffith and Caska.
Griffith is the one who has a strong fixation on his dream which he believes it's his fate. Caska, usless to say, is just a poor sacrifice till now after the eclipse.

In this point, the two guys are destined to be antagonistic to either of them.

So "forgiveness" which I said above is like Guts will understand what Griffith's fate is and once Guts himself was the only one who might change Griffith's fate.
and in the end of scene, Guts also will realize he totally tips over fate of dream of his ex-friend's after all.
that's what I said "forgiveness"
It's not like that "hey, old buddy, I was wrong. Sorry"
"Ok.forget it. don't do like that next time .we're friends again"

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Ok. My Belief is that Guts did Love Griffith and Griffith did love Guts. Griffith gave Guts a reason to Live. In return Griffith would not have been as successfull without Guts. Griffiths rise in the royal hierchy was due to Guts performance on the field. As Griffith was taking the royal glory Guts was taking the war fare glory. They both fed off each other. Griffith was not this do as your told fucked up guy. Griffith was comfortable around Guts. He actually loosend up a couple of times. If Griffth told him how much he appreciates what Guts does for him I'm sure this whole thing would have been avoided. Griffith is too ...aloof to do anything that simple. That's how I see their relationship. Griffith wasn't evil. He had doubts about what what he was doing. Remember when he man-whored himself to Gannon? He felt sick about and pretty much self-mutilated himself. That is the version of Griffith I actually like.

The Festival Griffith/Femto is another matter.

I can say that that's the true nature of Griffith brought forth. He's completely embraced his dream regardless of the consequences. This is the one I call selfish. This is the one I can say is as close to evil as he can be. This is the one that sacrificed his men, ruined Guts's life and raped Casca. That no matter what he says is unforgivable. It's not just Guts' forgiveness that in question but Casca's, Judou's, Pippen, Corkus and all the unamed faces who died. It's a huge act. That cannot be realistically forgiven.

As for Guts rape attemp of Casca I can say it's quite different from what Femto did to Casca. When Femto raped her he was in his right mind. Totally and 100% in control of his actions. That equated with the fact that their was obvious malice intent behind what he did. Guts' was not anywhere in his right mind. The Beast was all over him. It's a strong factor in his psyche. He had no control. Casca's screams snapped him out of it. Her screams didn't stop Femto. It would take nothing short of turning back the clock and change the past to make Guts or anyone forgive Griffith.

I can say that that's the true nature of Griffith brought forth. He's completely embraced his dream regardless of the consequences. This is the one I call selfish. This is the one I can say is as close to evil as he can be. This is the one that sacrificed his men, ruined Guts's life and raped Casca.

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Yes, but by the same token, couldn’t you also say the Beast is Guts’ true nature brought forth, that he’s completely embraced his hatred (even for Caska) regardless of the consequences?

As for Guts rape attemp of Casca I can say it's quite different from what Femto did to Casca. When Femto raped her he was in his right mind. Totally and 100% in control of his actions. That equated with the fact that their was obvious malice intent behind what he did. Guts' was not anywhere in his right mind.

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True, but is that a practical comparison? In this situation, Guts shouldn’t be likened to Femto, the Beast should be. The Beast is to Guts what Femto is to Griffith (as stressed in volume 16); a manifestation of the evil that dwells within him. You’re comparison separates Guts’ and the Beast’s actions, but still holds Griffith responsible for Femto’s; basically saying that Guts is innocent for the same reason Griffith is guilty.

I say, the Beast can’t alibi Guts anymore than Femto can Griffith.

-Griffith

I say, that the Beast can’t alibi Guts anymore than Femto can Griffith.

-Griffith

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True... so very true. That's why I say that Gatts will walk the path that Griffith did once before, and perhaps emerge with a more through knowledge about how it really is to listen to that beast inside...

The big question is... what is Griffith now? Femto? The white Hawk? Human? before we knows that we can't really begin to talk about forgiveness... because all that hinges on the fact that Griffith is human again.

Yes, but by the same token, couldn’t you also say the Beast is Guts’ true nature brought forth, that he’s completely embraced his hatred (even for Caska) regardless of the consequences?

True, but is that a practical comparison? In this situation, Guts shouldn’t be likened to Femto, the Beast should be. The Beast is to Guts what Femto is to Griffith (as stressed in volume 16); a manifestation of the evil that dwells within them. You’re comparison separates Guts’ and the Beast’s actions, but still holds Griffith responsible for Femto’s; basically saying that Guts is innocent for the same reason Griffith is guilty.

I say, the Beast can’t alibi Guts anymore than Femto can Griffith.

-Griffith

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Can't quite see it that way bud. They seem so different in intent. Griffith and Femto were one in the same. No inner conflict no lack of control. Griffith knew what he was doing, totally. Guts and the Beast I don't see as one the way I see Griffith and Femto.

What kind of love r u talking about between Griffith and Guts. R u talking about brotherly love r gay love.

What kind of love r u talking about between Griffith and Guts.  R u talking about brotherly love r gay love.

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are you serious? everyone know he's talking about gay love...

What kind of love r u talking about between Griffith and Guts.  R u talking about brotherly love r gay love.

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...The word "love" between friends doesn't have to be interpreted as fruity. ::)
...

..

The big question is... what is Griffith now? Femto? The white Hawk? Human? before we knows that we can't really begin to talk about forgiveness... because all that hinges on the fact that Griffith is human again.

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Everyone forget something : Griffith never died!Sure when he first met Idea he was not at his best, but he was alive and no one killed him. He was simply trasfomed in Femto. In a way it was the King size version of the trasfomation of the everyday apostle. and so we can presume that the human part of Griffith lived on.If you do not believe me ask Caska if it was a spectre that raped her.So the question is instead: why "resurect " (or "give rebirt" )a man who was  alive?Why Grifith did not simply use his powers to assume is old human guise and walk again among us? It is a simple feat for lesser apostles why a major one , or call it a godhand if you prefer, should not be able?

...The word "love" between friends doesn't have to be interpreted as fruity.  ::)
...

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absolutely right.
their love is quite different from homosexuality.
they don't have any sexual feeling to the other.
I think this kind of love is quite possible even for us.
There are billions of types of love in the world.
I'm sure Griffith loved and loves Guts more than any other people in the world but how about Guts?
I am not sure if Guts loves Griffth more than his girl, Caska.
What do you think of this?

Everyone forget something : Griffith never died!Sure when he first met Idea he was not at his best, but he was alive and no one killed him. He was simply trasfomed in Femto. In a way it was the King size version of the trasfomation of the everyday apostle. and so we can presume that the human part of Griffith lived on.If you do not believe me ask Caska if it was a spectre that raped her.So the question is instead: why "resurect " (or "give rebirt" )a man who was alive?Why Grifith did not simply use his powers to assume is old human guise and walk again among us. It is a simple feat for lesser apostles why a major one , or call it a godhand if you prefer, should not be able?

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you've hit the nail on the head!

Can't quite see it that way bud. They seem so different in intent. Griffith and Femto were one in the same. No inner conflict no lack of control. Griffith knew what he was doing, totally. Guts and the Beast I don't see as one the way I see Griffith and Femto.

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Well, Griffith was fully transformed into Femto at that time. Gatts is still struggling on the edge. He hasn't used his behelit yet... So, in essence Gatts human side is still more or less dominant. And yeah, of course there was little inner conflict, because at that time... who know what or where Griffith was? It's Femto we're talking about here. Just like Gatts was the beast when he attacked casca. No conflict there, the conflict came later, when he managed to overcome the beast.

The difference is that Gatts has not been consumed yet, while Griffith was.

*grins* of course Femto KNEW what he was doing. That is the essence of Griffith after all. The back stabbing, plotting, manipulating beast inside, the arrogant hawk. Gatts essence is pure rage, pute hatred for everyt´hing. Of course he will not have control, even if he's fully transformed. The he'd be all instincts most likely, Gatts never was the most rational one.


ATTENTION:>>>>>>>>>>>>

Moved the post below to the 'speculations' section. Please reply there.

Everyone forget something : Griffith never died!Sure when he first met Idea he was not at his best, but he was alive and no one killed him. He was simply trasfomed in Femto. In a way it was the King size version of the trasfomation of the everyday apostle. and so we can presume that the human part of Griffith lived on.If you do not believe me ask Caska if it was a spectre that raped her.So the question is instead: why "resurect " (or "give rebirt" )a man who was  alive?Why Grifith did not simply use his powers to assume is old human guise and walk again among us? It is a simple feat for lesser apostles why a major one , or call it a godhand if you prefer, should not be able?

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AGH! I hadn't even thought of that... *smacks forehead* You are so right... that means that there can only be one reason for the 'rebirth'. To inhabit a body that is not controlled by the godhand. To be free.

*ponders* okay... time for some wild speculation adn what if's here:

What if the reason Griffith was reborn, was to gain a freedom from the godhand that he had not had before? We have not seen them since...

What if the reason Griffith was reborn was to be reborn in a body 'outside' casualty? The foetus should be dead. it's fate should have been to die with casca. It should be dead... but is not. And what's more... it's got Gatts for a father, the one man so far to really amaze most of the 'immortal' onlookers.

What if the powers Griffith exhibits are not those that remains from his time as Femto? What if they belong to the foetus. Gatts and casca's child. With Sonya and Shierke we have seen that 'normal' people can have powers too... can anyone guess what a child twisted by being at ground zero in the ceremony could exhibit?

What if Griffith's goal is not his own kingdom, but to bring down Idea itself, so that he truly can accomplish his dream? He always was willing to sacrifice himself... and can anyone imagine a greater sacrifice than transforming himself to Femto? Now that I've read 83, his looks are pretty omnious at times.

What if the reason he's gathering a 'monster' army is to have them all under 'control'? When they have helped him win his battles, then he'd kill them off in one fell swoop. Bingo. No more idea scum to walk the earth. It would be a typical Griffith tactic... and more of a reason not to associate himself with them.

What if Griffith really can talk to spirits now? The rumours about the next issue seems to indicate that, and then what might he have learned? I wouldn't put it past Griffith to go to war against God himself...

hehe... pure speculation, but I just got carried away.

Yea the rape of Caska. The only rape in the series, right?Of that other rape, the Gutts rape nobody ever talk. Why? because it was so tasteless. Look instead at Caska at rape finished the poor thing was out her mind but she had not a hair out of place heaven forbid, not with the cost of hair cut. What I am aiming at. Simply : I am tired to see:male rapes innominable thing, no forgivenes; female rapes ugly in the same proprtion of ugliness of the woman herself. If the woman was gorgeous(and you can be sure that she will remain so when raped and at rape finished) she should forgive , or avenge itself horribly but then again she sould to do so in manner that the reader can say :how beautiful is she in his rage. Do not get me wrong. I am not a saint. But when I want entertain myself with those thing I buy them were are sold , that is were I expect them to be depicted so not were with words they comdemn with acts they absolve

Oh, good point, Roberto. 8)

e than one occasion.

This suggests Guts' desire for revenge, yes.  But what about after the rebirth?  He did try to attack Griffith, but didn't he mention something about "losing the will to fight" after seeing Griffith again?

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He did lose his will to fight because he looked at  Caska (and for that I never forgive her) and thought:The sacred duty of a noble hero (as per manual of the junior heroes) is protect the did (damsel in distress)particularly when she is also his fiancèe and a little, how to say it gently?,out of her mind. So out he went to protect Caska. Now that is not what I buy berserk for. I want not "forgiveness". I want the lone, desperate,avenger of the first issues. I want him stalk Griffith and co. everywhere. I want the fight of the millenium between he and Griffith. I want ...Oh no use :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

What if the reason he's gathering a 'monster' army is to have them all under 'control'? When they have helped him win his battles, then he'd kill them off in one fell swoop. Bingo. No more idea scum to walk the earth. It would be a typical Griffith tactic... and more of a reason not to associate himself with them.

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"Idea scum" but Zodd isn't Idea scum. Zodd wouldn't go off and kill harmless people [like the Snake Baron] he wouldn't [from what "I" know] turn people into monsters and have them kill people [egg apostel, Neko]. Could it be possible that Zodd was reborn?

So out he went to protect Caska. Now that is not what I buy berserk for. I want not "forgiveness". I want the lone, desperate,avenger of the first issues. I want him stalk Griffith and co. everywhere. I want the fight of the millenium between he and Griffith.

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AGREE! that's why I love first 3vols, too.

So out he went to protect Caska. Now that is not what I buy berserk for. I want not "forgiveness". I want the lone, desperate,avenger of the first issues. I want him stalk Griffith and co. everywhere. I want the fight of the millenium between he and Griffith. I want ...Oh no use :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

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No use indeed. Sounds to me like you want Wolverine...

Guts realized that his actions and morals back in the Black Swordsman arc were a mistake when he visited Godo's cave in volume 17. Despite what you, the reader thinks, thats how it is.

Now that is not what I buy berserk for. I want not "forgiveness". I want the lone, desperate,avenger of the first issues. I want him stalk Griffith and co. everywhere. I want the fight of the millenium between he and Griffith. I want ...Oh no use :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

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Yeah, volumes 4-22 are defiantly the weakest of the series, but it was all down hill from the prototype anyway.

Despite what you, the reader thinks, thats how it is.

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Like the length of the story. ;D

-Griffith

Yeah, volumes 4-22 are defiantly the weakest of the series, but it was all down hill from the prototype anyway.

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Definitely. The prototype, I consider to be Miura's pinnacle in art and story-telling.

Like the length of the story. ;D

-Griffith

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EAT A bAG OF HLEL!!!!@2

Guts realized that his actions and morals back in the Black Swordsman arc were a mistake when he visited Godo's cave in volume 17. Despite what you, the reader thinks, thats how it is.

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You are right for the current.
then you think it is good or possible for Guts to do several things together?
protects his girl , if she regains, love each other , gives her salvation, leads his band and finally revenges on his ex-friend..... etc, etc...
I know they are all good as a righteous and perfect humanbeing.
but we also know Guts is not super-hero rather he is a kind of badass. I think it is belonged to Griffith to do several things at the same time, not for Guts.
In the recent chapter, Guts comes to realize how hard it is to do many things together.
In this point, I think it would be better for Guts to go on all alone
even if Farnese, Serpico, Caska and Isidor should all leave Guts.
It would be Guts' crucial choice because he can't get and do everything. He should give up something.
In other words, he should take the most important thing abandonig other stuff. I guess it from what the beast said to him in chapter 187.

However, for the time being, maybe Guts needs them for his girl as he said in chapter 191. but it is not sure if he will keep going on like that till the end.

The problem is that only Guts can protect her, and that only in a manga, in real life he had  died a long time ago from weariness. Perhaps he is really Wolverine. He, first, has to find a secure refuge for her and elfland is so far away. So, maybe, something unforeseen is bound to happen soon

I think that at the conclusion of the manga that could be possible, if Guts continues to change, but that overlooks the problem that if Griffith is allowed to live the world will be overrun by demons and monsters.

An interesting subversion of the idea is that Guts forgives Griffith, but then goes on to kill him, not for revenge, but to save the world. It makes for an amusing reversal of the antihero character and the decent into darkness that most antiheroes go through - instead Guts lifts himself out of darkness to become a 'true' or 'classical' hero, forgiving Griffith being the final step in his redemption.

Ralwatt said:

An interesting subversion of the idea is that Guts forgives Griffith, but then goes on to kill him, not for revenge, but to save the world.

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Yea...that doesn't sound like Guts at all. Saving the world? Since when has Guts given a crap about the world or the public? When Vritannis was overrun did he say, "Save the women and children!". No he left for Elfhelm so Casca could regain her sensibilities.

Okin said:

Yea...that doesn't sound like Guts at all. Saving the world? Since when has Guts given a crap about the world or the public? When Vritannis was overrun did he say, "Save the women and children!". No he left for Elfhelm so Casca could regain her sensibilities.

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The current Guts isn't like that, but his personality has changed over the course of the story. I was suggesting that by the time the story reaches its conclusion he may have changed further.

Though he does care about the public, as has been shown many times. He just gets over those feelings because he has to to survive and to protect the people who are of personal importance to him.

I think the Demon child needs to be taken into consideration as well. *If* Guts and Casca find out that Griffith and the child are now one, the matter would become more complicated. It's no longer a simple matter of revenge or forgiveness. Even if Guts could forgive Griffith for betraying everyone at the eclipse, what about the fact that his and Casca's child has been taken by Griffith as well?

Ramen4ever said:

I think the Demon child needs to be taken into consideration as well. *If* Guts and Casca find out that Griffith and the child are now one, the matter would become more complicated. It's no longer a simple matter of revenge or forgiveness. Even if Guts could forgive Griffith for betraying everyone at the eclipse, what about the fact that his and Casca's child has been taken by Griffith as well?

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I admit that Guts may not want to kill Griffith upon this revelation, but that doesn't mean he has forgiven him. My problem was that any reluctance to killing Griffith would far more likely stem from Casca's feelings or the Demon child's life rather than forgiveness. I mean, can you really imagine Griffith doing anything to earn forgiveness?

Also, I don't think Guts will ever start caring about the entire world before his friends and revenge. I just can't imagine an event that would change him like that.