With the introduction of the Fire wheel DS...

I just had this weird thought... But think about it... Given the power of the fire wheel incorporate with DS... Isidro fire dagger has become pretty insignificant... In fact in comparsion, Fire wheel DS is like a giant version of Isidro dagger, if someone did realised.



Serp wind cloak and sword did show it usefulness and its potential damage it is able to create. But fire dagger... Erm... Pale in comparsion...


I don't know.. Unless fire pixies can be more powerful than fire wheel elemental?

Smith said:

Given the power of the fire wheel incorporate with DS... Isidro fire dagger has become pretty insignificant...

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That was most probably a one time thing. Schierke can only ask for the help of elementals when they're in the vicinity, and conveying the Fire Wheel's power through the DS was a last resort kind of thing, she did it because they had no other choice.

Smith said:

fire pixies

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Salamanders... And the difference between Isidro's dagger and what happened with the DS is that the "fire" on the dagger can't be extinguished, it's permanent.

Seriously, they can't expect to summon the same elemental everytime they get in a bit of a mess. I'm suprised Schierke convinced it to make a second appearance, honestly.

Smith said:

Serp wind cloak and sword did show it usefulness and its potential damage it is able to create. But fire dagger... Erm... Pale in comparsion...

I don't know.. Unless fire pixies can be more powerful than fire wheel elemental?

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Yeah well, perhaps Flora intentionally gave him a somewhat less powerful weapon, seeing as how the first thing he does with it is... well...

Walter said:

Seriously, they can't expect to summon the same elemental everytime they get in a bit of a mess. I'm suprised Schierke convinced it to make a second appearance, honestly.

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I not all that surprised that a spirit of the battlefield wouldn't mind causing some more damage. But no, I don't expect him to be around all the time, either.

Let's also not forget how much the summoning of an elemental strains the summoner's body. Maybe my memory is off, but Schierke seems pretty tired after she summons the more powerful elementals. Guts is gonna be hurtin' later.

Vaxillus said:

Maybe my memory is off, but Schierke seems pretty tired after she summons the more powerful elementals.

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Yes, it tires her. She was already exhausted after summoning the Blaze Rod once.

Vaxillus said:

Guts is gonna be hurtin' later.

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Well it's Schierke that called forth the Fire Wheel, not Guts, even though she did it while in the armor with him. We can even see her inert body react when she casts the spell, so I'm not sure that will take a toll on him (aside from possible burn marks). But he'll be hurting nevertheless given his state and the serious wounds he received from the Makara.

Aazealh said:

But he'll be hurting nevertheless given his state and the serious wounds he received from the Makara.

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No kidding. And I thought it took him a while to recover from the last time he used the armor...poor guy is gonna need more than a week or two off...

Walter said:

Yeah well, perhaps Flora intentionally gave him a somewhat less powerful weapon, seeing as how the first thing he does with it is... well...

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Haha yupz that was what I meant... Isidro dagger can eliminate one enemy at a time, and must be in contact... Blazing rod DS however spins fire instead... And it can result in a massacre...


Another interesting point is... Water elemental Windoru (Undine in encyclopedia) seem to be so called the 'boss' of the water pixies (dun think its salamander), or perhap it is a elemental that is made up of water pixies...


Could Fire wheel share such resemblance to fire salamander in that way?

Smith said:

Haha yupz that was what I meant... Isidro dagger can eliminate one enemy at a time, and must be in contact... Blazing rod DS however spins fire instead... And it can result in a massacre...

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Yeah but if YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING, you know that that particular summon likely won't occur again. It's a special instance. Therefore, comparing it to weapons like Isidro's dagger are pretty much a moot point.

Smith said:

Isidro dagger can eliminate one enemy at a time, and must be in contact... Blazing rod DS however spins fire instead...

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It doesn't "spin fire", no. And Isidro's dagger isn't weaker than any other weapon, it's just a different kind of arm used with a different fighting style. Obviously a dagger doesn't compare well with a sword in general, what a pertinent observation. And besides there's what Walter just pointed out to you again.

Smith said:

Another interesting point is... Water elemental Windoru (Undine in encyclopedia) seem to be so called the 'boss' of the water pixies (dun think its salamander), or perhap it is a elemental that is made up of water pixies...

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If you know the correct name, why are you using another (wrong) one? It's "Undine", and in Katakana that sounds like "windinu", so "windoru" doesn't mean anything. Anyway I believe the Encyclopedia is wrong on this matter (well, "was" since I just fixed it); let me explain myself: the elemental spirit Schierke summoned in Enoch is actually just called something along the lines of the "Lady of the Depths" (水底の貴婦人) and doesn't have a more specific name (which makes sense in regard to the other elemental spirits we've seen up to now). In that translation of her name, "depths" refers to the deeper parts of a body of water, obviously. Schierke reveals this when she tells the villagers about this "spirit of the river" as she calls it.

Undine on the other hand is what represents the element of water, the small, thoughtless elemental beings that Schierke sees when she first utters the name. So they are the equivalent of Salamander for fire and Sylph for wind. And they aren't pixies, I corrected you once about this Smith, please stop repeating it. Anyway, the Lady of the Depths is a high level elemental spirit and thus can control the Undine elementals as she wants, even overpowering lesser astral beings with control on this element (like it did with the Kelpie in Enoch). That's why Schierke says this in episode 273, referring to the Kundalini:

Saiki said:

Schierke - Its large body and cyclones were made by it using the undine elementals. [...]

Schierke - All the water in this bay is under the control of that beast. If I could borrow the strength of a higher elemental like in Enoch village, then I can take over the control...

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Various beings can control the water element, and their "boss" as you call it is of course the elemental king of the west, not the "Lady of the Depths" or any other entity on that level or under.

Smith said:

Could Fire wheel share such resemblance to fire salamander in that way?

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In the way I said, yes. The Fire Wheel is a relatively high-level elemental spirit from what Schierke says, and it's pretty powerful. But that's in no way a reason to underestimate Isidro's dagger.

Aazealh said:

If you know the correct name, why are you using another (wrong) one? It's "Undine", and in Katakana that sounds like "windinu", so "windoru" doesn't mean anything.

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I kinda forget its name... I remember its "wind..." something...

Aazealh said:

And they aren't pixies, I corrected you once about this Smith, please stop repeating it

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I know that but i am not sure how to call that small little "beings". Salamander as I mention certainly does not suit the water "beings". In my manga it was translated as "Elves"... So to a certain extent it quite confusing...


Anyway I am not familiar with the names of most astral being... that could be the main problem... (I never even heard of Sylph before )


And yes another point I need to clarify since you brought it up from the translation by Saiki... (I almost forgot about this)... Schierke said that if she could borrow the strength of the higher elemental like in the Enoch village, she can take over the control the kundalini... Was she referring to the spirit of the river (the lady of the depths)?

If that the case isn't the countess higher level than Kundalini?

Smith said:

I know that but i am not sure how to call that small little "beings"

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Well, elementals (元素霊).

Smith said:

Salamander as I mention certainly does not suit the water "beings"

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Yeah, obviously not. As I just told you the salamanders are associated with fire, the undines are associated with water, and the sylphs with wind. For the earth element we don't know yet.

Smith said:

In my manga it was translated as "Elves"... So to a certain extent it quite confusing...

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Well that's a wrong translation, so I can understand your confusion to a certain extent.

Smith said:

Anyway I am not familiar with the names of most astral being... that could be the main problem... (I never even heard of Sylph before )

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It's mentioned in the manga, re-reading it more carefully should help you. And I just told you how they were called anyway (twice).

Smith said:

Schierke said that if she could borrow the strength of the higher elemental like in the Enoch village, she can take over the control the kundalini... Was she referring to the spirit of the river (the lady of the depths)?

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She didn't say she could take control of the Kundalini itself, but rather overpower it and thus impeaching it from using water like he was doing (pretty much like what happened with the Kelpie in Enoch). And she was referring to an elemental spirit of the level of the spirit of the river (Lady of the Depths) that dwelled in Enoch, yes.

Smith said:

If that the case isn't the countess higher level than Kundalini?

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Yes, she is. Here's a summary you should be able to understand: Elemental King > Lady of the Depths > Kundalini > Kelpie.

Aazealh said:

Yes, she is. Here's a summary you should be able to understand: Elemental King > Lady of the Depths > Kundalini > Kelpie.

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Nice summary

But I am not sure IF that summary would justified the statement that Schierke is a more powerful magic user than Daiba (which I am wondering)... Since she could summon a much powerful elemental provided she is at the right place at the right time

Smith said:

But I mean not sure does is justified the statement that Schierke is a more powerful magic user than Daiba...

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Smith, could you please make an effort when typing your posts? Seriously, that's pure gibberish here. Anyway, I would say that Schierke is a better magic user than Daiba. Without the Kundalini (and Ganishka in general, who gave him power and lent him some of his Pishacha and Daka), I don't know what Daiba would have done. I'm not sure he could have done anything at all for that matter. He was defeated while he had the advantage over his opponents, I think that's enough to judge of his ability (or lack thereof).

Smith said:

Maybe it just happen that she is at the wrong place at the wrong time...

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What?

Just edited my post... Should be clearer now


Anyway thanks alot for the clarification of the elemental stuff, it make me understand better :)

Smith said:

Just edited my post... Should be clearer now

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Ok, well let me re-precise what I said then:

Smith said:

she could summon a much powerful elemental provided she is at the right place at the right time

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Schierke always summons powerful elemental spirits from what we've seen, but it's true that she has to depend on the ones that are near her when she casts her spells (except when she uses the barrier of the 4 elemental kings). However, Vritannis is actually a place practically devoid of elemental spirits because it's a big city inhabited by humans that are insensible to these matters. Here is a quote from episode 267:

SK.net's Translations said:

Evarella: This city is different from such things like a forest or mountain. The aurae of elemental spirits are very weak, so it's really hard to cast a big spell here.

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The Wheel of Fire is there because it goes along with battlefields, so Schierke had to resort to it, but the setting wasn't propitious to spell-casting. After killing all these Daka she was exhausted, so much that Guts had to carry her on his back. Of course things didn't go well and Guts let himself be possessed by the armor, swallowing Schierke's spirit inside it in the process. Then we have Daiba and the Kundalini.

Daiba didn't know about the Fire Wheel and called it a different kind of magic, which means he doesn't know about higher elemental spirits, implying that his knowledge is limited to creatures like the Kundalini. Schierke on the other hand, recognized the Kundalini when it showed up and quickly understood that Daiba was using its power to create the whirlpools. She couldn't call an elemental spirit like the Lady of the Depths because she was at a disadvantage in such a place, so she had to use the Fire Wheel again, not a good thing since fire is weak to water (and since she wasn't in her body, and I imagine still tired from the previous spell). But Daiba was beaten by the group's combined efforts, while he had all the advantages.

In light of all this and considering that Daiba most likely received the Kundalini and the ability to control/tame it from Ganishka (smoking fog and all), I say don't give him a break. He had his chance, and he failed. It's like I said a few episodes ago: Schierke may be just a kid, but she was taught by Flora. And Flora was a badass.

Aazealh said:

It doesn't "spin fire", no. And Isidro's dagger isn't weaker than any other weapon, it's just a different kind of arm used with a different fighting style. Obviously a dagger doesn't compare well with a sword in general, what a pertinent observation. And besides there's what Walter just pointed out to you again.

. . .

In the way I said, yes. The Fire Wheel is a relatively high-level elemental spirit from what Schierke says, and it's pretty powerful. But that's in no way a reason to underestimate Isidro's dagger.

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I've been thinking about Isidro's dagger and it seems likely to me that it must have some further capabilities that Isidro hasn't had the chance to access yet. For example; Perhaps the Salamander spirits can be made to crawl out from the Dagger and spread a fire-wall or inferno that way?

Forest Wraith said:

Perhaps the Salamander spirits can be made to crawl out from the Dagger and spread a fire-wall or inferno that way?

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I somehow doubt that. Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Why exactly? I'll admit that it was just an example but it also seems like a natural extention based on what we have seen of magical items.

Forest Wraith said:

Why exactly? I'll admit that it was just an example but it also seems like a natural extention based on what we have seen of magical items.

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Why Isidro using his dagger to throw fireballs (or anything going along those lines) seems unlikely to me? Do I really need to answer that? And no, it doesn't seem like a natural extension based on what we have seen of magical items so far.

Serpico's sword is associated with the element of wind. It uses wind to slash through the air. It doesn't cast lightning, nor does it create cyclones. Isidro's dagger burns everything it touches, because its element is fire. Why should there be more to it?

What? No,I never stated anything about it throwing fireballs. What I mean is more along the lines of accentuating the properties of Fire by commanding the Salamander sprites to leave the Dagger and crawl over a surface. Which would be very similar in effect to a normal, spreading fire, only greatly amplified and under some degree of control.

Forest Wraith said:

What? No,I never stated anything about it throwing fireballs.

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Well, your "firewall" ("I blocked your ports Ganishka! No more BitTorrent for you!" ) and "Inferno" references were pretty vague so I assumed that's the kind of thing you meant.

Forest Wraith said:

What I mean is more along the lines of accentuating the properties of Fire by commanding the Salamander sprites to leave the Dagger and crawl over a surface. Which would be very similar in effect to a normal, spreading fire, only greatly amplified and under some degree of control.

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Commanding them to leave the dagger, eh? I still don't think that's likely. The purpose of that weapon is to grant someone that doesn't normally have control over these elementals the ability to use them to some degree. If Isidro could command the salamanders then he wouldn't really need his dagger, he'd be like the Wheel of Fire (exaggerating a bit here, but not much).

Spreading fire "in an amplified way" is exactly what the dagger already does, only he has to stab things with it (logical). If that's what you meant then since it's the dagger's power as demonstrated several times in the manga there's no need to search any further, but if you're talking about Isidro making the salamanders jump down from the dagger and moving around on their own under his control, I can't agree. Seems a bit awkward/far-fetched to me actually. Also, keep in mind that the salamanders are what compose fire at the elemental level, they're not exclusive to the dagger (Schierke was surrounded by them when she summoned the Fire Wheel for example).

But anyway, I think a lot of people are underestimating this weapon. If you look at its effects on enemies, it's actually pretty devastating... A single hit and you're carbonized.

Okay, I just wanted to see your reasoning more then anything, thanks.

Anyway does Isidro dagger got any sheath? (I don't remember seeing any)

Smith said:

Anyway does Isidro dagger got any sheath?

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Yes, it has one.