Apostle Form

Hi, this is my first time, just joined. Let's see if I can keep from breaking rules I skipped over in the fine-print.

While I searched, and found a number of threads about apostles, I didn't see any quite on this topic, and wanted to see if anyone had some thoughts on this.

This is basically a two part question/theory.


What determines the type of apostle someone becomes? During the eclipse we see all sorts of (lower?) apostles with random mishapen forms. Then we have what I'm assuming are "middle class" apostles. Like the Snail Count, Wyald, and so forth. Now to the subject of this thread. What determines this form? (Rochine) accordding to my memory of teh translation i read got her form specifically for wishing to be an elf9apostle). So i dont question her. But the count for example. You think when he made the sacrifice he said "hey, btw, can you make me a snail demon?"

I'm leaning towards the transformation being a product of the person's Od. I get this impression from the way it shaped the Berserker Armor, for skully, then to Guts. Since it took such varied form with them, i wonder if the apostles change in this way.

I don't think it has to do with how much one sacrifices. From the get go, you have to sacrifice what you care about most. I'm pretty sure everyone who sacrifices takes a pretty profound personal loss, so it's not a matter of giving up more.

There is the matter of the person being at a certain level of power/strength at the time of the transformation. But Rochine was a little girl. Wyald an old man(presumably he didn't age "inside" of his apostle form), the count was...well..a count. I don't recall seeing any other distinct transformations back to an original form in the series. But in any case, at least for apostles of this level that doesn't seem to matter much. They all definately seemed to be a lot stronger than the eclipse than general 'apostle hawk soldiers".

So, what do you think determines their form/the powers a form has? For example, some apostles were able to pass on some of their power to another to make a quasi-apostle(ie snail count). Others just had tremendous strength(Wyald, though they're all pretty strong I'd say) flight(Rochine) and such.


The second part of this thread is an apostle hierarchy. Here's my theory, any comments?

The lowest class of apostle, the general beasts at the eclipse that are just random mishapen monsters.(I think some of the quasi apostles are actually stronger than many in this group?)

The next level take on the appearance of animals. Wyald, the Goat(Is he a full out apostle or Quasi?) The Snail Count, The Snake Baron.... This is my middle class, a smaller in number group.

Then we have the upperclass. Zodd, Locus, Grunbeld, taking on the shape of mythological beasts.

Then, finally, the UP UP UPPER class, the more nature based Apostle such as Ganishka. While there is speculation that he reached this by having a great knowledge of magic before his transformation to enhance his power. (Perhaps like Flora's level if she became an Apostle?)

Any thoughts on the hierarchy, how you get in what position, if it's likely, can you be moved up or down?

I tried not to jump around too much. Tried to be as descriptive with my theories as possible. I look forward to hear what your thoughts are.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Dekant said:
Hi, this is my first time, just joined.

Hi Dekant, welcome to SK.net. This has been discussed before actually, but not in such a specific thread. I think you could find most of the answers you're looking for in older posts though.

Dekant said:
What determines the type of apostle someone becomes?

We don't know. No real indication has been given thus far. Even in Rochine's case (I corrected the name spelling for you), we don't actually see her asking for it. She just believed in elves and wanted to meet some, and when her parents found her and started arguing her mind "broke" and the beherit activated.

Dekant said:
I'm leaning towards the transformation being a product of the person's Od. I get this impression from the way it shaped the Berserker Armor, for skully, then to Guts.

Well, it's a plausible theory that each apostle's transformed body is a result of an individual, unique aspect of themselves. However it's presumptious to link it to people's Od, even though it's also pertinent if only in terms of symbolism to relate it to the way the Berserk's armor adapts to its wearer. Anyway it's more probably something that is linked to each person's ego, the Od being more like a vital and universal energy, present in all beings, places and objects.

Dekant said:
So, what do you think determines their form/the powers a form has?

No indication either till now. There are several possibilities, and I'm pretty sure you'll find a few discussions on the matter in old threads.

Dekant said:
The second part of this thread is an apostle hierarchy. Here's my theory, any comments?

Well I don't think a hierarchy is really necessary. Apostles are individuals, they're all unique and their strength varies accordingly. Like humans, some are weak and some are strong (and like humans, training could greatly increase their fighting prowess). The Snake Baron doesn't strike me as particularly stronger than the average apostle grunt in the Neo Hawks for example. Also, the animal theme is randomly present in all apostles, the weak and the strong ones. Some of what you call the "random mishapen monsters" are as strong or stronger than animal-related apostles, so that relation you made isn't valid. Same for the Hawks' five generals, so far their apostle forms have been more or less related to mythological creatures (the variations are pretty heavy) but that doesn't mean it's a rule or that it'll be the case for Rakshas and Irvine.

Dekant said:
the Goat(Is he a full out apostle or Quasi?)

He's a pseudo-apostle, like Mozgus.

Dekant said:
Then, finally, the UP UP UPPER class, the more nature based Apostle such as Ganishka. While there is speculation that he reached this by having a great knowledge of magic before his transformation to enhance his power. (Perhaps like Flora's level if she became an Apostle?)

I think you're confused on this. There isn't much speculation at work here. Ganishka uses magic, he himself has said so. He uses his fog to confer magic powers to his minions, and he uses magic to create the Daka and familiars. However we don't precisely know the extent of his power and all of what he's done with it. What I personally believe at this point is that this fog form of his we've seen so far is the result of magic. That it's not his apostle form but a manifestation of his magic power as a sorcerer. He might enhance his apostle form with magic, but also simply use magic instead of resorting to his apostle form (which would hypothetically involve a lot of teeth and ugliness). Some people don't agree, but in all honesty right now everything seems to point in that direction.

From what we've seen Ganishka is a powerful sorcerer, like Flora, and the fact he's an apostle hasn't played that much of a role in his demonstrations of power so far. As she died, Flora appeared as a wall of flame and blocked Grunberd's path. Ganishka's fog form isn't all that different. As great magic users, mere apostles are nothing to them (although Flora was already quasi-dead by the time she was introduced in the story). For this reason, he might not have a place in your hierarchy, assuming we haven't seen his apostle form yet. Maybe it's strong, maybe it's weak, who knows? Being a magic user makes you incredibly powerful, whether you're human or an apostle, and for now we don't know whether it actually changes anything to be one or the other in that regard.
 
Thanks for correctng the spelling of that blasted elf girl! As I'm not really sure how to use the quoting mechanism I'll respond with cut and paste.

Also, the animal theme is randomly present in all apostles, the weak and the strong ones. Some of what you call the "random mishapen monsters" are as strong or stronger than animal-related apostles, so that relation you made isn't valid.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm sure you've read the manga more times than I have. I just can't recall any instance of a non-animal apostle being stronger than an animal one. During the eclipse for example Guts either had a small sword(and eventually broken) or a horn to fight with, not his normal weapon. While in that instance there was no single apostle that stood out to me. Looking through my memory I don't recall any of them demonstrating a level of strength comparable to the animal themed apostles. Hence my hierarchy theory.

I think you're confused on this. There isn't much speculation at work here. Ganishka uses magic, he himself has said so. He uses his fog to confer magic powers to his minions, and he uses magic to create the Daka and familiars. However we don't precisely know the extent of his power and all of what he's done with it. What I personally believe at this point is that this fog form of his we've seen so far is the result of magic.

Actually on this instance I'm not confused. My reasoning for thinking that the fog was his apostle form is this; After we see the fog version, we do not see his human form. Now that alone does not prove anything. But whenever Ganishka showed power of any sort, he used that form. Now, you did say this was a way of confering power to his minions. I find this to be akin to the way the Snail Count gave a piece of himself to his warrior to do battle with Guts. Because of Ganishka's magic he is able to divide his power on a much wider scale. Also, it would serve him well to have the fog as an apostle form. It would make it very difficult to do physical damage to him. While in any event he is massively powerful, a physical form can be cut, can be ripped, can be burnt. A mystical fog cannot. If he were projecting himself by means of magic in this fog, I imagine that would leave his physical body at least somewhat more vulnerable, a risk I don't think he'd want to take, especially with the Hawk so near by. We saw how Zodd slipped by him to get to Charlotte, if he can, surely Griffith could get by without him noticing and destroy his physical body.

Whatever effect being a magic user has on being an apostle is still very unclear, as you've said. But it *seems* to me like becoming an apostle is an all penetrating thing, effecting mainly the body, but also to a degree the mind, the soul, the heart of a person. This is shown in how Rochine(thank you !) could become a killer, and have a demented little army of elves that kill each other for fun, without being bothered by it. I think (clearly all speculation) that becoming an apostle enhances every aspect of what you are, since it is able to change the heart and mind to a degree.

Fianlly, I believe the transformationf rom human to apostle works off of what you are/desire as a human. Zodd was presumably a strong warrior before his transformation, so his apostle form is incredibly physically strong. Rochine adored elves so that in essence is what she became, and while she was a young girl to start with, her strength wasn't so dangerous, but her speed was impressive. Even Mozgus and his servants becoming pseudo-apostles had a somewhat angelic form in accordance with their faith. So, I think Ganishka, being a strong magic user became stronger. Perhaps the transformation added to his magic focus, or had his mind take a darker approach to his work. Maybe just being an apostle makes more physical and mental energy available to him which allows him to cast bigger/larger scale workings for a longer period of time without being drained. But I stray from my point, and I assure you there is one, there must be! I think the fog is his apostle form, look at his human form.. While he's quite ugly and beastly looking.. a wizard is what he is at heart, so his apostle form is likely to reflect it. Wyald was probably just an old wretch who was picked ona nd denied in human life, so before he was about to die, he was able to call the Godhand, and they gave him his wish, extended his life, gave him the access to sex and violence that he never had. His form reflects perversion, his basically a walking penis-ape(which strays quite far from what I'm saying) Zodd, Grunbeld, Locus, their forms reflect that. Locus the hero of duels, rides a horse, becomes a centaur. Zodd, a lone barbarion fighter becomes a beast to reflect that nature. grunbeld, a Knight with an affinity for dragons becomes a dragon, his armor morphing along with him as part of his personality becoming his mighty hide. Ganishka, a great and powerful magic user becomes fog, a mighty force that reflects his magical prowess, not the physical. With all that rambling I hoped to show some examples of how I developed my theory. Of course this is all speculation, but this is the nation for such.

I wait for Miura to absolutely confirm or deny these theories. But I just wanted to share my ideas. Some you might agree in part to, others totally reject. But they are what they are.
 

Aazealh

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Dekant said:
Thanks for correctng the spelling of that blasted elf girl! As I'm not really sure how to use the quoting mechanism I'll respond with cut and paste.

No problem. I corrected your quotes too.

Dekant said:
I'm not trying to argue, I'm sure you've read the manga more times than I have. I just can't recall any instance of a non-animal apostle being stronger than an animal one.

Volkov is stronger than the Snake Baron or the Boar Apostle that attacks Guts at Godot's place, not to mention the chicken apostle from the Occultation ceremony. And then there's the Beherit-apostle, whose powers were quite incredible even if he didn't have a remarkable physical strength. There are plenty of examples. I'm not going to post pictures but there's no doubt on this.

Dekant said:
During the eclipse for example Guts either had a small sword(and eventually broken) or a horn to fight with, not his normal weapon. While in that instance there was no single apostle that stood out to me.

How about the apostle he broke his sword on? And there were animal-themed apostles present during the Occultation ceremony that didn't stand out. Anyway, we've seen animal-themed apostles dying like if they were nothing when they attacked Flora's mansion, so I don't really see your point here. Among them were some others with more imaginative forms and there was no visible difference. If you really pay attention to all these apostles I think it's pretty evident there's no such hierarchy.

Dekant said:
But whenever Ganishka showed power of any sort, he used that form.

You mean by casting lightning? Since that's the only thing we've seen him do so far it's not saying much. Especially since that lightning is akin to magic. However you can remark that his transformation into fog is instant and completely uncharacteristic of apostle transformations in general and that in volume 27 he clearly showed some traditional apostle aspects when he got angry. These aren't emphasized at all in his fog form from what we've seen so far.

Dekant said:
Now, you did say this was a way of confering power to his minions. I find this to be akin to the way the Snail Count gave a piece of himself to his warrior to do battle with Guts. Because of Ganishka's magic he is able to divide his power on a much wider scale.

Well it could theorically be possible, who knows. However, that'd mean that all the fog in Vritannis and in Wyndham is Ganishka. The fog inside the familiars is also him, and the one into the Kushan casters that allows them to use magic too. It'd all be a result of his apostle powers. Sounds a bit unlikely to me, especially since he said his minions were created by magic. Schierke told the group the familiars were created through magic as well. I don't know how much clearer you can get. That being said, you're right to point out the similarity with the Count, for example when he gave "a part of himself" to Zondark (and in fact I myself speculated that Ganishka's apostle status could play a role in all of this, maybe resulting in some hybrid magic, the teeth on his minions being a good indication), but it seems to be working the other way around. These familiars and Daka need to be controlled by magic users, so it's not like if they were quasi-apostles themselves (neither the creatures nor the subpar sorcerers).

It could be magic enhanced by Ganishka's apostle status, but Ganishka's powers as an apostle enhanced by magic... I don't know. What's been said about it so far doesn't lean in that direction.

Dekant said:
Also, it would serve him well to have the fog as an apostle form. It would make it very difficult to do physical damage to him.

I think it serves him well no matter what.

Dekant said:
If he were projecting himself by means of magic in this fog, I imagine that would leave his physical body at least somewhat more vulnerable

Not necessarily. We currently don't know enough about it to be sure of anything in that regard.

Dekant said:
But it *seems* to me like becoming an apostle is an all penetrating thing, effecting mainly the body, but also to a degree the mind, the soul, the heart of a person.

Not to a degree, in fact it affects primarily a person's spirit/soul. This is why their bodies revert to normal when they die.

Dekant said:
Fianlly, I believe the transformationf rom human to apostle works off of what you are/desire as a human. Zodd was presumably a strong warrior before his transformation, so his apostle form is incredibly physically strong.

Presumably? That's just baseless speculation. Not that I'm opposed to the idea, but he could have been anything from a weak child to a strong warrior for all we know.

Dekant said:
So, I think Ganishka, being a strong magic user became stronger.

You're assuming he knew magic before becoming an apostle, which isn't sure at all. Anyway you're not basing yourself on anything concrete here. Even as a sorcerer, nothing hints that becoming an apostle would have granted him higher magical powers. And even if it did (since it's fully possible), it still doesn't mean transforming into fog is what his apostle form is. It may or may not be, but that would imply becoming an apostle only improved his magic and didn't change him physically (going by your theory), and this isn't supported by what we've seen in the story so far. Ganishka's a monster even under his human appearance; his mouth is the size of a Great White Shark's. That's a feature that has nothing to do with magic.

Dekant said:
I think the fog is his apostle form, look at his human form.. While he's quite ugly and beastly looking.. a wizard is what he is at heart, so his apostle form is likely to reflect it.

Wow, that's quite something you're saying here. So you admit he's got obvious physical apostle features, but you discard them for no reason, instead assuming you know what he is at heart (and neither you nor I do) and that it's why his apostle form is fog? That's quite daring... I mean, deep in his soul he should be related to fog (or whatever idea it embodies) for his apostle form to be fog, magic isn't the key here. And if he was a magician at heart I don't think he would have used a beherit, knowing what that would make him. Or that he would need one to transform into fog (Flora didn't need to be an apostle to appear as a wall of flames). I rather feel that magic is a way like another to gain power for him, because that's what he wants: power. I bet his true ego reflects his apostle form. As for the fog, when I see him morph into a giant ball of clouds to electrocute his adversaries in episode 276, it tends to reinforce to me that possibility that it'd be magical in nature. At the very least it's got the versatility of magic.

Dekant said:
With all that rambling I hoped to show some examples of how I developed my theory. Of course this is all speculation, but this is the nation for such. I wait for Miura to absolutely confirm or deny these theories. But I just wanted to share my ideas.

Well, that's cool. I don't find your examples very convincing to be honest (I'm relatively stubborn in general anyway), but you raised some good points (don't hesitate to search for older threads for similar discussions that could interest you) and it's nice to share your thoughts with us. :SK:
 
Good points. You got me to completely drop my hierarchy theory. The rest I'm a bit more stubborn on, but I'll have to reread the series again for more facts to support it. It's been a long time since I've read the majority of the volumes so I'll probably just revive this thread after I do, if I find some supporting evidence. Just one question.

"Volkov is stronger than the Snake Baron or the Boar Apostle that attacks Guts at Godot's place, not to mention the chicken apostle from the Occultation ceremony."


The name Volkov isn't ringing any bells? About what chapter or volume is this in?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Dekant said:
The name Volkov isn't ringing any bells? About what chapter or volume is this in?

He's the one who bites Guts' arm during the Eclipse, and we see him again in volume 27, Millennium Falcon arc, chapter of the Holy Evil War Chronicle, episode 235. He breaks through Wyndham's walls effortlessly and allows the lancers to retreat. I took him as an example because most people are at least semi-familiar with him. On a side note, there's no confirmed official spelling of his name so it's subject to a possible change in the future.

Volkov.jpg
 
Ok, I didn't make the connection. Thank you. I didn't remember seeing a name for him. Funny, during the eclipse I didn't think he was too strong, just that Guts couldn't reach anything vulnerable because of his mouth having his arm and that being a somewhat frail weapon compared to what he was used to. I've learned otherwise. Thanks again.
 

Aazealh

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Dekant said:
Funny, during the eclipse I didn't think he was too strong, just that Guts couldn't reach anything vulnerable because of his mouth having his arm and that being a somewhat frail weapon compared to what he was used to. I've learned otherwise. Thanks again.

No problem. Keep in mind though that we didn't see much of him during the Eclipse, so there was no way to evaluate his strength (or that of most of the other apostles present). As it stands he seems to be covered in hard scales and to possess great physical strength, this added to his imposing stature places him above the common grunts composing the Demon Army, like the Pig Apostle Zodd kills in episode 224 because he was contesting his orders.
 
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents, hope you don't mind.
My view is that once a person becomes an apostle his/hers primary form is an apostle one, meaning that the human shape distorts itself to resemble it, rather than the other way around. Of course the apostle form is a reflection of a persons character and in some way, of those circumstances leading to the "ascension". I'll try to illustrate my point by taking into consideration the two apostles whose forms (all of them) are perhaps best described: namely Wyald and the Snail Count. Wyald's first form is that of a feeble old man. He takes an ape/walking_penis visage as he transcends to an apostle, leaving his new human form to follow suit, becoming more apelike. As far as the count is concerned he is at first shown to be strong, a little on the heavy side but not nearly as much as he seems to be afterwards. His second human form is a lot more bloated as if to indicate the nature and enormous size of his apostle form. Both these apostle forms seem to reflect the desires of the men, in Wyald case debauchery and in a way fear of death. In the case of the count his desire to escape pain seems to be the main reason for choosing a shape which, to him at least, seems practically invulnerable.
Anywho, this is just me, hope you find this interesting.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
vlad said:
My view is that once a person becomes an apostle his/hers primary form is an apostle one, meaning that the human shape distorts itself to resemble it, rather than the other way around.

Well, their human form is changed in function of their apostle form and usually represents or hints at it of course. I don't think anybody disputed this in the thread as it seems a rather obvious point to me, though I guess it doesn't hurt to reassert it. Concerning the "primary" form, it's a bit vaguer IMHO (seeing how apostle forms often retain part of the human forms) but I think the apostle form is more representative of their "true nature" as apostles in general.
 
Well, their human form is changed in function of their apostle form and usually represents or hints at it of course. I don't think anybody disputed this in the thread as it seems a rather obvious point to me, though I guess it doesn't hurt to reassert itPoint taken, though I wasn't implying any of you said otherwise.
Concerning the "primary" form, it's a bit vaguer IMHO (seeing how apostle forms often retain part of the human forms) but I think the apostle form is more representative of their "true nature" as apostles in general.
Perhaps its a bit presumptuous on my part but I concider their human form as a "cover", a way to blend in more easily. Their true form would draw too much attention, so to speak, and they resort to using it only when necessary eg. their life is threatened, or they mean for no one to survive, etc. To avoid repeating myself, I'd like to hear your and other people's opinion on the circumstances of their transformation playing a role in their shape.
 

Aazealh

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vlad said:
I'd like to hear your and other people's opinion on the circumstances of their transformation playing a role in their shape.

What do you mean? The state in which they were when the God Hand bestowed power on them? If so, I don't think it plays a significant role, except maybe in some specific cases. Like I said earlier, I believe it relates to people's intrinsic "nature." Guts' apostle form would look like the Beast of Darkness for example.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Aazealh said:
Like I said earlier, I believe it relates to people's intrinsic "nature." Guts' apostle form would look like the Beast of Darkness for example.

Agreed, it's my belief that Apostles are essentially the "beasts" inside anyone that transforms. I wonder if I'd turn into something cool or if I'd have a bunch of dicks coming out of my head? We should create a test... =)

Your Apostle form:
Horny Penis-Head Monster


"Aww man!"

:troll:
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
Hey, it's better than mine.

Your Apostle Form:

Fat, Angry Stooge with no penis​

:isidro:

Then What the hell's my Human Form?!?!
 

Pesmerga

This is going to be one hell of a party
i don't think we have to search too far for the apostle form, when miura create a character that can transform into an apostle, he create it from his feeling
 
Pesmerga said:
i don't think we have to search too far for the apostle form, when miura create a character that can transform into an apostle, he create it from his feeling

well yeah, they'd be pretty flat if there wasn't any feeling behind them...

or did you mean that their forms embody some sort of feeling?

ex: Snail count= sloth?, Zodd= wrath?, Rakshas=envy?, Wyald=lust?, Grunbeld= pride?


I'm not meaning to imply that i believe that the apostles are represented by the Seven Deadly sins, but that was just an example of what i could've thought you'd meant.
*confused himself*
 

Aazealh

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Malachai said:
I'm not meaning to imply that i believe that the apostles are represented by the Seven Deadly sins, but that was just an example of what i could've thought you'd meant.

I don't think he meant that, and that'd be wrong anyway.
 

Pesmerga

This is going to be one hell of a party
Malachai said:
or did you mean that their forms embody some sort of feeling?

ex: Snail count= sloth?, Zodd= wrath?, Rakshas=envy?, Wyald=lust?, Grunbeld= pride?

No i say, Miura does the design of the apostle from the feeling he have when he create the character. Sometimes it's simple to see what Miura want to represent but sometimes more difficult
 
No i say, Miura does the design of the apostle from the feeling he have when he create the character. Sometimes it's simple to see what Miura want to represent but sometimes more difficult

ah i see, my mistake.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Pesmerga said:
No i say, Miura does the design of the apostle from the feeling he have when he create the character. Sometimes it's simple to see what Miura want to represent but sometimes more difficult

Miura's own interpretation is a factor but his designs for the majority of apostles show a strong influence from Medieval and Renaissance depictions of demons and monsters. There is something very subtley archetypically frightening and unnerving about their appearance in both the originals and in Miura's own interpretations.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4087/jb9fd2.jpg
A Demon from Hiermonyous Bosch's Hell.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Haywain_left_wing_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpg
The Left wing of Bosch's Haywain triptych; Take note of God and his Angels doing battle with the Fallen in the top portion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Schongauer_Anthony.jpg
Martin Schongauer's The Temptation of St. Anthony.

I wish I could afford more of the Manga volumes, it would be fun to go through them and try to pick out individual apostles that appear to have been inspired by specific demons.
 

Walter

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Good call on the Renaissance angle. In your example of Bosch's Haywain triptych, I almost expected to see a big ass Hand rising up between the battle at the top of the picture. :void:

As for going through and picking out specific apostles influenced directly by works like these, I don't think you'd have much luck. I'll admit that it appears Miura was influenced by the Renaissance's depiction of demons, however, it's more likely he took that style and ran with it, rather than copying and pasting from pre-existing designs.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forest Wraith said:
Miura's own interpretation is a factor but his designs for the majority of apostles show a strong influence from Medieval and Renaissance depictions of demons and monsters.

I wouldn't say there's a "strong" influence as far as design goes, especially not in the way you're implying. Keep in mind that historically these are really pretty typical representations of demons, that can be found in cultures anterior to those you cite and were part of a vast artistic current that lasted through centuries. Also, the fact that a good amount of apostles are based on existing creatures like insects or animals in general surely makes it easy to draw parallels, yet doesn't show much of an actual direct and specific influence at all. As Walter said, it's more a question of a general style than anything else. In that regard it isn't unlike all the references you can find in Berserk relating to old folklore, legends, myths, and ancient texts in general. These aren't uncommon, and I guess are part of the charm of fantasy literature.

You cite Hieronymus Bosch's work as people often do, but in fact if you go beyond the grotesque representations you won't find that many similarities between his depictions of demons (and his work didn't limit itself to these, unlike what some people seem to think) and Miura's apostles. The same can be said of H.R. Giger's work, which is often abusively cited by fans. Anyway, if you're interested in authors that Miura appreciates, you can also look for Gustave Doré and Pieter Bruegel the Younger, as they are two of the artists he stated liking the most in the past. His drawing style is in fact interesting to compare to Doré's for connoisseurs.

And if you want to see a visible influence for Miura's representation of "demonic" entities, you should rather take a look at Devilman by Go Nagai. The Vortex of Souls in particular is clearly an homage to Miura's favorite mangaka. In the same way, the dimension the God Hand reside in when they appear in volume 3 is an obvious homage to Escher.

Forest Wraith said:
I wish I could afford more of the Manga volumes, it would be fun to go through them and try to pick out individual apostles that appear to have been inspired by specific demons.

Go ahead and buy the manga, by all means. It isn't costly and we should all support the author. However, I doubt you'll find any specific inspiration or even anything beyond a superficial resemblance ("whoa, a half-animal monster with batwings?!"). Actually I can pretty much guarantee you won't. I think you underestimate the amount of work Miura pours in designing his characters, even the minor ones. So to come back to the post you quoted and were replying to, I think you're wrong. Miura does design characters and their apostles forms (when they're apostles that is) together following his own vision of what they should be when he creates them, in relation to Berserk's story. They're not just his interpretation of existing models as you seem to be implying.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Walter said:
Good call on the Renaissance angle. In your example of Bosch's Haywain triptych, I almost expected to see a big ass Hand rising up between the battle at the top of the picture. :void:

Photoshop . . . ?
While I still feel that that Miura was influenced by such classical depictions, I don't think that this is in anyway detracts from his own creativity. The key word here is influenced; not to say that his designs show no originality, far from it. However, I should have mentioned that it is mainly the winged apostles that bring those impressions to my mind. Either way, I'm very impressed with his creativity and how he manages to integrate the influences that I do see with his own incredible sense of design.
I definitely appreciate your comparison to Dore though Aaz; They both display a phenomenal sense of dramatic impact to a masterful degree.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forest Wraith said:
While I still feel that that Miura was influenced by such classical depictions, I don't think that this is in anyway detracts from his own creativity.

Well, I don't think anybody would disagree with you here. I (and I believe Walter as well?) simply wanted to bring some nuance to what you were saying, or at least to the impression your post gave (in regard to the degree of said influence). Creative influences in general are unavoidable anyway, whether they're conscious or not. As a matter of fact, the animal motif present in certain apostles can be linked to a good amount of different references, which is to come back to what I was saying in my previous post also part of what makes Berserk so interesting as a work of fantasy.

Forest Wraith said:
However, I should have mentioned that it is mainly the winged apostles that bring those impressions to my mind.

Haha, I tell you, it's the batwings (and/or insectoid features)!! :void:

Forest Wraith said:
I definitely appreciate your comparison to Dore though Aaz; They both display a masterful sense of dramatic impact to a remarkable and masterful degree.

Thanks, although I believe the comparison imposes itself to those who know both artists. Our member JIN could talk about it for hours and in great details.
 
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