Possibility of Guts saving Casca without losing his left arm.

Before I start this topic, please forgive me if this has already been discussed before.

Anyways, I've been reading the Eclipse event in vols 13, and 14. And apart from all the hell literally breaking loose, in the midst of this Casca gets raped by Femto and Guts gets almost devoured by those monstrosities and they're both saved by the Skull Knight himself. One thing I do wanna know is, could've Guts saved Casca without hacking off his own arm? I know that Guts' left arm was trapped inside one of those demons' mouths, and he had to do whatever he could in order to cut himself loose (no pun intended). But I always speculated, that instead of resorting to cutting off his left arm with his sword, he could've used it as a crowbar and place it between that demon's teeth and then force that thing's jaws open and pull his arm out. Afterwards he would've still kept his actual arm and wouldn't have to get that iron prosthetic one.
So why didn't he do it? In my opinion, it was either because his left arm was already chewed up by that demon and there was nothing that Guts could've done about it, or there simply was not enough time, and if Guts were to try and save his arm, he could've risked Casca getting killed, and when he had a choice between saving his limb or rescuing Casca, he chose the latter option.

The monster had teeth of steel and a jaw of iron.  He didn't have the strength.

Besides, he broke the sword on it before he started hacking his arm off.

pippin22 said:

The monster had teeth of steel and a jaw of iron. He didn't have the strength.

Besides, he broke the sword on it before he started hacking his arm off.

Click to expand...

Yep.
And explain me how could he force the apostle's jaw to open by using the sword as a crowbar?

By placing the sword between the apostle's teeth and then forcing it down like a lever.

Guts chopping his own arm off is a dramatic sign of his hatred and determination in that moment. Why would you want to take away the power of such an awesome scene? Besides, the prosthetic arm has come in more handy than his normal left arm ever did.

And really, what's the point in speculating these "what if" scenarios? What if Griffith said "no" ? The answer is a boring story.

Walter said:

Guts chopping his own arm off is a dramatic sign of his hatred and determination in that moment. Why would you want to take away the power of such an awesome scene? Besides, the prosthetic arm has come in more handy than his normal left arm ever did.

And really, what's the point in speculating these "what if" scenarios? What if Griffith said "no" ? The answer is a boring story.

Click to expand...

Maybe the prosthetic arm served Guts better than his real one did, however the real arm is a real arm. I admit, him cutting off his own limb is very dramatic and it does intensify the Eclipse scene, but what my point is, would it have been possible for Guts to free himself without mutilating himself? Nevertheless, I think maybe Guts did an option to save Casca without losing his left arm in the process. He just never used it.

BayJumper said:

Maybe the prosthetic arm served Guts better than his real one did, however the real arm is a real arm. I admit, him cutting off his own limb is very dramatic and it does intensify the Eclipse scene, but what my point is, would it have been possible for Guts to free himself without mutilating himself? Nevertheless, I think maybe Guts did an option to save Casca without losing his left arm in the process. He just never used it.

Click to expand...

Walters point was that he didn't. Debating whether or not he could have quickly becomes a moot point.

But if your so keen on hypotheticals: Guts has been in how many fights? how many have YOU been in? Are you trying to say you know more about swords than Guts? how arrogant are you!?

CnC said:

Walters point was that he didn't. Debating whether or not he could have quickly becomes a moot point.

But if your so keen on hypotheticals: Guts has been in how many fights? how many have YOU been in? Are you trying to say you know more about swords than Guts? how arrogant are you!?

Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa, whoa!! Time out, CnC. Dammit, I ain't trying to let any hypothesises to get too carried away. O.K, fine, so Guts didn't have a choice and had to cut off his own arm, whatever. But don't start antagonizing and speaking to me in such manner as if by considering a differrent case scenario of an event is a great sin. That's why this place is called a "Specualtion Nation."
So what's up with all the hostility anyway?

BayJumper said:

But don't start antagonizing and speaking to me in such manner as if by considering a differrent case scenario of an event is a great sin. That's why this place is called a "Specualtion Nation."
So what's up with all the hostility anyway?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it hostility. We're just heckling you. And it's because your idea just isn't a very constructive speculation. What does it bring to the table? Any new revelations or light shed on the characters in question, or the nature of the story? None that I can see. If you want people to get on board, you generally have to WOW them with some new evidence or concept.

haha. chill dude. I was jokin' around (hence the troll emo).

but yea, like walter said, what are we speculating here? what if he had his arm? well, then he'd have his arm.

thats about as far as it goes, man. next.

BayJumper said:

Before I start this topic, please forgive me if this has already been discussed before.

Click to expand...

It has been, please search more ardently next time. People already answered your question pretty well, but allow me to emphasize what was said since you don't seem convinced.

BayJumper said:

Femro

Click to expand...

Femto.

BayJumper said:

could've Guts saved Casca without hacking off his own arm?

Click to expand...

No, he couldn't have. First off, his arm was already so badly damaged that he couldn't have saved it. Even if he had escaped, it would have been necessary to amputate it. Second, Guts tried to break free from Volkov (the one biting his arm) and broke his sword on him. This accounts for the apostle's resistance, and he couldn't have used the sword as a lever because it would have broken in that case too. Third, Guts didn't have enough strength in his free arm to lever Volkov's jaw, so he couldn't have possibly done it. Fourth, at that moment he didn't care about himself, he just wanted to save Casca. Cutting his arm was the quickest way to get there, so he did. It showcases his love for her, and partly explains his subsequent hatred for Griffith/Femto.

Has anyone ever brought up the idea that Guts didn't die at the Eclipse because he sacrificed himself? No, I'm not saying that he chose to be branded, simply that he chose to hack off his arm and chose to look up even at the loss of an eye. Was Skull Knight allowed to crash the gate and save the two people closest to Griffith because of a preordained sacrifice by a sacrifice? Far-fetched? Sure. But hear me out.

In order for a human to become an apostle or a godhand, they must sacrifice that which is dear to them. What is dearer to a human than their own flesh? Evil speaks in a drear monotone and answers "Nothing". Guts retorts in a spray of his own blood, "Casca; now let me at that bastard!" Evil chuckles to itself and says "You still have some use to me, and you amuse me. You and the woman may leave; your ride just arrived." Of course, there is the obvious reason that Casca would need to survive to give birth to Griffith's future vessel. But would Idea of Evil really just let it go at that, without some toll taken for leaving the Nexus alive?

Trashcan said:

Was Skull Knight allowed to crash the gate and save the two people closest to Griffith because of a preordained sacrifice by a sacrifice? Far-fetched? Sure. But hear me out.

Click to expand...

Farfetched indeed. There's a difference between hacking your arm off and sacrificing the dearest thing to you in the world. These sacrificial ceremonies are very systematized, and involve what you might call "motions" passed through to confirm the validity of the sacrifice and intention of the summoner (The visions of the past are a recurring part of the ceremonies, and of course, it all leads up to ultimately: "I sacrifice"). Guts was not exposed to nor did he go through any of these motions, and thus was clearly not an active part of the occultation.

Anyway, if you pay close attention to volume 3, the ultimate goal of these sacrifices is to shed the humanity of the summoner. What Guts did is the opposite; he clung to his humanity with every inch of his life (MAYBE THE IDEA OF GOOD ARRANGED THIS?!? XD)

Trashcan said:

Evil speaks in a drear monotone and answers "Nothing". Guts retorts in a spray of his own blood, "Casca; now let me at that bastard!" Evil chuckles to itself and says "You still have some use to me, and you amuse me. You and the woman may leave; your ride just arrived."

Click to expand...

Wow, this fanfic-esque role assignment and dialogue is really far-fetched dude, it belongs more in Creation Station than this area and really doesn't help solidify your point.

But would Idea of Evil really just let it go at that, without some toll taken for leaving the Nexus alive?

Click to expand...

As far as we know, the Idea of Evil doesn't govern events like this directly. The God Hand are the real arbiters of its will. Anyway, it's not like Skull Knight had a "rite of passage." Zodd was blocking his path. He even had to literally crash the party to be able to escape with Guts and Casca. It's not like he was an invited guest.

But of course, since you expressly qualified your theory under The Idea of Evil's secretive intentions, I guess we'll never know, right...?

Trashcan said:

Has anyone ever brought up the idea that Guts didn't die at the Eclipse because he sacrificed himself? No, I'm not saying that he chose to be branded, simply that he chose to hack off his arm and chose to look up even at the loss of an eye. [...] In order for a human to become an apostle or a godhand, they must sacrifice that which is dear to them. What is dearer to a human than their own flesh?

Click to expand...

But you know, sacrificing specifically requires branding. This doesn't work for various reasons here. First, Guts didn't sacrifice his arm in the sense of "Griffith sacrificing his troops." Void didn't brand his arm, and when you sacrifice something it gets branded. Like Walter said, he didn't follow any kind of process, and his arm was already pretty much gone when he cut it off anyway. Second, Guts having already been sacrificed, he couldn't be a second time, even by himself. Third, his arm wasn't the dearest thing he had (hence him cutting it off), and I don't think mere body parts are acceptable as sacrifices anyway. Fourth, the SK crashing through the Eclipse and taking him and Casca away isn't something I think a sacrifice could bestow upon someone...

All in all it's indeed very far-fetched.

Walter said:

Anyway, it's not like Skull Knight had a "rite of passage." Zodd was blocking his path. He even had to literally crash the party to be able to escape with Guts and Casca. It's not like he was an invited guest.

Click to expand...

Yeah, and he attacked Void, and Femto tried to kill him...

Aazealh said:

Yeah, and he attacked Void, and Femto tried to kill him...

Click to expand...

Was that really his goal? I mean yeah, long run, probably didn't care for SK and was aiming for death. But personally, the way Femto was reaching out and (the shocked look of his power) it looked more like an attempt to stop SK's escape with his "toys". That's just my thoughts.

Death Can Wait said:

But personally, the way Femto was reaching out and (the shocked look of his power) it looked more like an attempt to stop SK's escape with his "toys". That's just my thoughts.

Click to expand...

He tried to kill SK before he even took Guts and Casca on his horse, as he was approaching him (SK dodged). Also I'm not sure what "the shocked look of his power" means.

In any case, Femto's motive doesn't change anything to the point Walter was making. In fact, what you're saying reinforces it.

Ah yes, I forgot that event prior. Smally off this topic, like with how Void used that "portal" type (spell?) to direct SK's blade back at him, to me in that instance it seemed more of a taunt or a simple defense rather than Void trying to finally finish SK (maybe finds him unworthy as Femto did Guts?)

I wasn't making a point for Walter either, just stating that Femto had no real motivation to kill SK other than swatting a bothersome fly away (SK's death just being par for course if it did occur). There is a moment where Femto eyes his hand with a sort of "O_O" expression on his face. I can't remember the exact page, but it was like a satisfaction of "holy shit, look what I can do!"

As for the topic, no, I don't think Guts will lose another body part any time soon let alone for Casca again (not that he wouldn't) I think it will all just be a choice made indirectly by the original party (guts, griffith, casca) that will chose her sanity.

Death Can Wait said:

Smally off this topic, like with how Void used that "portal" type (spell?) to direct SK's blade back at him, to me in that instance it seemed more of a taunt or a simple defense rather than Void trying to finally finish SK

Click to expand...

Of course, it was a purely defensive move (though it could have killed him in theory I guess). That's pretty obvious I think. Also, please be kind and try not to be too off-topic, as you've been posting a lot in the past 20 minutes and you rarely were on topic at all...

Death Can Wait said:

I wasn't making a point for Walter either, just stating that Femto had no real motivation to kill SK other than swatting a bothersome fly away

Click to expand...

Then you had no reason to post. We're not discussing Femto's movitation here.

Death Can Wait said:

There is a moment where Femto eyes his hand with a sort of "O_O" expression on his face. I can't remember the exact page, but it was like a satisfaction of "holy shit, look what I can do!"

Click to expand...

Femto's face rarely shows any expression, and that part is no exception. He looks at his hand, but his face expressionless. Pensive at best.

Death Can Wait said:

As for the topic, no, I don't think Guts will lose another body part any time soon let alone for Casca again

Click to expand...

This isn't the topic at all. The topic is whether he could have saved her during the Occultation without losing his arm. Please pay a little more attention when replying to threads in the future. Thanks.

Sorry, just skimmed the topic and thought he meant in the next instance, I read wrong.

If that's the case, the topic answer is simply,
no. Guts didn't save Casca anyways and nothing present would have allowed him to. If Skull Knight hadn't shown up it would have been a lot worse.

Yes, that is theoritcally possible, but he was facing an army of demons... he didn't even save Casca... he just saw her, and you could also say the demons could have killed him... had Griffith not wanted Guts to see the rape of Casca.

I just don't see it happening. Why didn't he do it... because the iron wasn't strong enough. Plus it wouldn't add anything to the story if he freed his arm, or even dodged the monster. Do you really think Guts would have been able to take on Femto, and save Casca?

Gurifisu said:

Yes, that is theoritcally possible

Click to expand...

Not even theorically, the answer is simple, if Guts could have been done that he would have. And we know he didn't do it, so it was IMPOSSIBLE for him into the state he was.

And again, his arm was already buggered up, so even if he did get free, he'd have to get rid of it anyway.

We're talking about this again?

jepn30 said:

We're talking about this again?

Click to expand...

Not anymore.