Role of Ganishka in Berserk

Hi all,

I have had this "idea" for a long time now never really considered it an idea or a theory as it just seemed as plain as day to me. However after talking to some people in the chat room I found it does not seem to be as obvious as I had thought. So basically I am just wondering what the general opinion is on my "idea" am I really alone in thinking this?

Ok the idea is very simple it’s that the Idea of Evil probably with the knowledge of God Hand deliberately chose/created Ganishka in the same way as he chose/created Griffith and other Apostles to "rebel" against Griffith and the God Hand. The reason for this is so Griffith can be the hero rescuing the people from this Kushan Emperor of Terror and not be seen as the villain himself when he takes over the world country by country, so rather than invader he is the Liberator.

Also this started of when I said Ganishka was in his apostle form when he is in his fog form and that its not a separate sorcerer power he has. Now while these two ideas do not rely on each other it does make more sense if he received these powers from the God Hand with or without his knowledge rather than him having such vast sorcerer powers independently of what the God Hand has given. Now the reasons for this 1. If Ganishka and the Kushans had this power why are they just invading now, just at the perfect time for Griffith? Why not years ago? and 2. If Ganishka had these powers before he met the God hand what could have brought him to the point of death if he is made of a cloud like substance and cannot be hurt be mortal or material attacks?

That’s basically the idea if you have any questions about it do ask, but don't tell me I am the only person that believes this am I?

Sanguinius said:

Hi all,

I have had this "idea" for a long time now never really considered it an idea or a theory as it just seemed as plain as day to me. However after talking to some people in the chat room I found it does not seem to be as obvious as I had thought. So basically I am just wondering what the general opinion is on my "idea" am I really alone in thinking this?

Ok the idea is very simple it’s that the Idea of Evil probably with the knowledge of God Hand deliberately chose/created Ganishka in the same way as he chose/created Griffith and other Apostles to "rebel" against Griffith and the God Hand. The reason for this is so Griffith can be the hero rescuing the people from this Kushan Emperor of Terror and not be seen as the villain himself when he takes over the world country by country, so rather than invader he is the Liberator.

Also this started of when I said Ganishka was in his apostle form when he is in his fog form and that its not a separate sorcerer power he has. Now while these two ideas do not rely on each other it does make more sense if he received these powers from the God Hand with or without his knowledge rather than him having such vast sorcerer powers independently of what the God Hand has given. Now the reasons for this 1. If Ganishka and the Kushans had this power why are they just invading now, just at the perfect time for Griffith? Why not years ago? and 2. If Ganishka had these powers before he met the God hand what could have brought him to the point of death if he is made of a cloud like substance and cannot be hurt be mortal or material attacks?

That’s basically the idea if you have any questions about it do ask, but don't tell me I am the only person that believes this am I?

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Hiya Sanguinius,

Well what you just described is what we have been thinking for quite some time. So far everything has been going Griffiths way to make him look good in front of the people and Ganishka is no different. I wish I could add more but we dont know the full extent to Ganishka's (Old man thunder) powers yet.

Although when its all said and done, he will be defeated by Griffith sooner or later!

I'm still not sure how you think the Godhand comes in... To give Ganishka his powers? Just out of the blue or something? I don't buy it.
The Idea weaves causality, so it definitely wove this military confrontation together. That doesn't mean that has to be Ganishka's only purpose, though. Atleast I hope not...

Well, part 1 seems rather irrefutable. Ganishka's function, in the grand scheme, is to be the ultimate evil (in the eyes of the conquered, at least) that Griffith will defeat. I think that your second assertion is founded on shakey ground, though. If Ganishka had his sorcerous powers before his transformation (including the power to change into this mist form, if we assume that it's not his apostle form), that really doesn't preclude him reaching a cross-roads in life where his beherit activated. Though the Slug Count's beherit was activated when he was at the point of death, we've seen nothing to suggest (and plenty to refute) the theory that death and the activation of the beherits are directly related. Roshinu and the Slug Count's transformations were both activated by despair, not death. And Ganishka was assuredly as vulnerable to that, with or without his powers. Even if he didn't have the powers prior to his achieving his status as an Apostle, though, I really don't think that the God Hand "set him up" in his role. Everything that Ganishka's done and become is simply an expression of Causality, which is a factor quite a lot deeper than the God Hand and their own interests or roles in events.

At least, that's my take on it.

Well, Episode 277 has come and gone. Sorry, Sangy.

Iscariot said:

Well, Episode 277 has come and gone. Sorry, Sangy.

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Well not really, I knew it was a magicial ability I was just saying that it was granted to him by the God Hand. It has been shown before that he can break bits of himself up and send them away from him, this was nothing new in that regard.

I would be really surprised if it turned out that Ganishka was himself outside of causality, he provides too perfect a setting for it to be purely accidental.
As for the invasion of Midland, it is tactically a sound moment for an attack with the country being in tatters over the war and the kings madness. Also it's been said that the Kushan empire is far away, so it could mean that it simply took this long to get to Midland and this part of the world.
The second part of the speculation is partly answered in the current episode. The part that remains unanswered is a bit difficult. My take is that he was a powerfull magic user to begin with, and that the transformation into an apostle augmented his abilities. Therefor the fog form was probably a spell of his that got "stronger" once he became an apostle.

Sanguinius said:

Ok the idea is very simple it’s that the Idea of Evil probably with the knowledge of God Hand deliberately chose/created Ganishka in the same way as he chose/created Griffith and other Apostles to "rebel" against Griffith and the God Hand.

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The fact Ganishka is meant to oppose Griffith as a way to provide an evil tyrant the savior can defeat is pretty much agreed upon by everybody, and has been for years. However, there is currently no reason at all to assume the God Hand has been knowing this for a long time. The birth and manipulation of people's lives is done by the Idea of Evil through causality, there is no ground to the presumption that the God Hand is privy to its subtleties, or even able to follow them. The Idea of Evil even tells Griffith it decided of his life "in a distant past" and manipulated lineages and History to achieve it, which isn't something that takes mere years to do. Simply said, there's nothing in the manga to base your "probably with the knowledge of the God Hand" on.

Sanguinius said:

Also this started of when I said Ganishka was in his apostle form when he is in his fog form and that its not a separate sorcerer power he has.

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Well episode 277 kind of refutes this. The fog form is something achieved through magic, or at least Ganishka has used it in conjunction with magic and it relates to it. Even if you insist on the idea that his ability to use magic in general is something he acquired from the God Hand, it's still not a proper apostle form but a magical spell that doesn't even involve his own body (but elementals...). And Ganishka spoke about his magic several times, emphasizing how different and superior he was to other apostles that served the God Hand, as opposed to him who doesn't. He made it clear he's not like them, and not only because he's stronger. Different terms are used, each of them specific and making it hard to relate both type of powers.

Sanguinius said:

it does make more sense if he received these powers from the God Hand with or without his knowledge rather than him having such vast sorcerer powers independently of what the God Hand has given.

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No, it doesn't. A big part of Ganishka's character is his pride of not being dependant on the God Hand and the power they bestowed on him, unlike other "lesser" apostles. That's also one of the reasons he's opposing Griffith, because he has independent resources. He's an apostle, but he's first and foremost an emperor and he seems to take more pride in his magic than in being an apostle. His knowledge of the world as opposed to the typical ignorance of more common apostles is a motive for him to rebel as well, knowing that the God Hand has its limits and that its members aren't invincible. This once more speaks for a self-made man approach. Then there's also the fact that Griffith is afraid of magic users in general, so much that he sent quite a fiery regiment of troops to kill an already dying witch. In that regard Ganishka is a greater threat to him than any normal apostle could ever be, including the strongest we've seen so far. And finally, you're assuming the God Hand has the power to give apostles the ability to use magic, something which no element proves or hints at so far in the manga. Besides magic is something that apparently anyone can learn, and I'm taking Farnese as an example here. There is no need to be an apostle to practice magic. Also to note is that magic seems pretty different from the kind of powers the God Hand possess, partly due the role of elementals in it. The Elemental Kings surely aren't a creation of the God Hand, and in fact are most probably far older than it is.

In the end we'll have to wait for Miura to tell us how it is, but the simplest yet not the least pertinent argument is that nothing in the manga seems to indicate that the God Hand's powers relate to magic as Schierke or Ganishka call it. Their powers and the abilities they bestow on apostles have always been said and shown to be very significantly different. The versatily of Ganishka's magic coupled with his attitude, speeches, and obvious apostolic physical features tend to show that he's more than just an apostle but also a sorcerer. Whether the two conditions can overlap and influence each other or not has yet to be clearly revealed, but that's a different topic altogether.

Sanguinius said:

1. If Ganishka and the Kushans had this power why are they just invading now, just at the perfect time for Griffith? Why not years ago?

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Obviously, the reason he's invading now is because it was all ordained through causality by the Idea of Evil. But you're assuming a lot of things and forgetting a lot of others. Ganishka is the emperor of the Kushan empire. Maybe he didn't inherit the throne through birth right? We know that the empire is composed of many different tribes. This implies that someone had to conquer all these tribes and unite them to form an empire at some point. Could have been Ganishka, and it's not something you do in a week. And then, the world is vast. There are plenty of unnamed countries in Berserk that Ganishka may have been invading and conquering for years, making his empire into the massive power it is today. As for his personal powers, well a sorcerer has to learn with practice and training, it takes time and no doubt that it took him long to perfect his current techniques.

Finally, right now is the perfect time for an invasion as the hundred years war between Midland and Tudor just ended and both countries are weakened, especially Midland whose armies were almost all annihilated before the Kushans even attacked, and whose king died as Kushan troops reached the capital city.

Sanguinius said:

If Ganishka had these powers before he met the God hand what could have brought him to the point of death if he is made of a cloud like substance and cannot be hurt be mortal or material attacks?

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Anything could have made him call the God Hand, being on the verge of death isn't a requirement (and he could have been on the edge of death anyway, just like Schierke can). He might also have decided to become a sorcerer after becoming an apostle, independently. And he might not have been as good of a sorcerer as he is now at the time. There are really dozens of very plausible explanations, I don't see what the problem is.

Sanguinius said:

It has been shown before that he can break bits of himself up and send them away from him, this was nothing new in that regard.

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The fog isn't part of him, as explained in the new episode.

vlad said:

I would be really surprised if it turned out that Ganishka was himself outside of causality

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I can't believe there are people still stuck with the "out of causality" ideas. Nothing is "out" of causality by definition. Causality is simply the relation between causes and effects, the fact it plays a role in Berserk is because the Idea of Evil is using its principles to alter the world as it wants (how it proceeds remains a mystery). And anyway, considering the fact Ganishka is an apostle it's basically impossible for him to be out of reach of the Idea of Evil, even if we assume that some things can be (which is unproven).

vlad said:

My take is that he was a powerfull magic user to begin with, and that the transformation into an apostle augmented his abilities. Therefor the fog form was probably a spell of his that got "stronger" once he became an apostle.

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That's also completely speculative and baseless for now. But hey, it's Speculation Nation!

Tried to illustrate most of your points in the chat room to 'im, Aaz. The man isists on theories proving other theories.

I've had arguments with walls that were more productive.

Could it be that Ganishka knows that the God Hand themselves are not invisible. Even if they are not invicible they will not be a very easy kill.

Wild Wolf said:

Could it be that Ganishka knows that the God Hand themselves are not invisible.

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Well I think he believes Griffith at least isn't completely invincible in his current form (invisible is probably not what you meant here), but that's kind of hard to say considering how little we know of his character and motivations.