So... what happens if you deny the God Hand?

RandomBastard · September 13, 2006

This is the first post of a longtime lurker, so my apologies if I break board protocol or bring up a long dead topic.

So what do you think happens if you're sitting there, bleeding all over your Beherit, and you DON'T sacrifice the thing you love most to become an apostle, you just tell Void to piss off?

SaiyajinNoOuji · September 13, 2006

Re: So......what happens if you deny the god hand?

RandomBastard said:
This is the first post of a longtime lurker, so my apologies if I break board protocol or bring up a long dead topic.

So what do you think happens if you're sitting there, bleeding all over your Beherit, and you DON'T sacrifice the thing you love most to become an apostle, you just tell Void to piss off?

I would imagine that you get sucked into the vortex like the count did when he didnt sacrifice his daughter in the first few volumes of Berserk.

Aazealh · September 13, 2006

RandomBastard said:
This is the first post of a longtime lurker, so my apologies if I break board protocol or bring up a long dead topic.

Hey there, welcome to SK.net! :SK:

RandomBastard said:
So what do you think happens if you're sitting there, bleeding all over your Beherit, and you DON'T sacrifice the thing you love most to become an apostle, you just tell Void to piss off?

I guess they just leave you to whatever the situation was before the beherit called them. Now keep in mind that due to causality and all that, it's extremely unlikely that someone would refuse to sacrifice. Everything's planned and done so they'll sacrifice when the time comes. The Count was likely a very, very rare exception.

SaiyajinNoOuji said:
I would imagine that you get sucked into the vortex like the count did when he didnt sacrifice his daughter in the first few volumes of Berserk.

He went to the Vortex of Souls because he was an apostle, and because he was dying. In theory, if you're "pure" and not dying, it wouldn't happen. This is all very speculative anyway, we have no way to know for sure.

Oburi · September 13, 2006

Now keep in mind that due to causality and all that, it's extremely unlikely that someone would refuse to sacrifice.

Interesting. Now isn't that kinda contradictory, to say everyone is bound by causality and still give them a choice? Especially in Griffith's case.

Aazealh · September 14, 2006

Oberi said:
Interesting. Now isn't that kinda contradictory, to say everyone is bound by causality and still give them a choice? Especially in Griffith's case.

The choices Griffith made all his life and the ones he's still making are all in accordance with what the Idea of Evil desires. That's done through causality. What he decided during the Occultation is what they wanted him to decide, and the Idea of Evil knew it would choose what he did. It knew because everything Griffith experienced in his life was the result of a careful planning.

Oburi · September 14, 2006

ah I see. But what about in general. I know this isn't really something you can answer for sure because we haven't seen it yet but if everythings controlled by causality then why give any apostle the choice, let's say they did say no. Could you say that because the Godhand gives humans a choice that things are not defiantly all planned out as it seems, that some things are out of Idea's forsight.

fuxberg · September 14, 2006

Beherit holders are brought uppon the GH when they're having extreme feelings (rage, desperation; i.e. the Count and Griffith) so it's kinda hard to refuse them when what they want the most is to get out of the situation they're in (Griffith not being able to fight or do anything and the Count after he saw his wife in an orgy)... So even if the person brought uppon GH was Christ encarnated (very unlikely because Beherits only go to people that have the "potential" to do such evil/desperate thing) and refused the GH's offer, the person would still go insane or much more likely to die..
So.. Griffith didnt have much choice and if it wasnt for Ubik (or Conrad, i dont remember :troll:

) to show Griffith those twisted "memories" and in a way manipulating Griffith's reasoning, i think the kiddo would've refused them..
But this is just speculation :serpico:

Oburi · September 14, 2006

Beherit holders are brought uppon the GH when they're having extreme feelings (rage, desperation; i.e. the Count and Griffith) so it's kinda hard to refuse them when what they want the most is to get out of the situation they're in (Griffith not being able to fight or do anything and the Count after he saw his wife in an orgy)...

Yea but the Count DID refuse them the second time and he WAS dieing. Thats the proof right there that you can deny the GH.

So.. Griffith didn't have much choice and if it wasn't for Ubik to show Griffith those twisted "memories" and in a way manipulating Griffith's reasoning, i think the kiddo would've refused them..
But this is just speculation

Eh, I still think he would have even withought those memories. They certainly helped, but Griffith started to have this horrible obsession with Guts after a year of torture and imprisonment. The first thing when Griffith did when he opened his eyes and saw Guts cradling him was to reach out around his neck as if to choke him. I think that's what the point of that was right?

or Conrad, i dont remember

Ubik.

fuxberg · September 14, 2006

Oberi said:
Yea but the Count DID refuse them the second time and he WAS dieing. Thats the proof right there that you can deny the GH.

The first time he was brought uppon the GH he was wrathfull and he wanted to kill his wife.. So he sacrificed his wife! :beast:

The second time he invoked the GH he was indeed dying but he tried to offer Guts as a sacrifice (Guts is a pain in the neck) but for the Count's surprise he could only sacrifice his dearest "thing", that would be his daughter.. He was very sad.. And died, revealing to us that, even after humans turn themselves into Apostles they can still have feelings :judo:

So sad.. Not.. The "bitch has to die!"

Unrelated to thread question:
If a God Hand member dies (assuming that it is possible) do they go to the Vortex? Or they're sent to another "realm" (Beherit Sword)?

Aazealh · September 14, 2006

Oberi said:
ah I see. But what about in general. I know this isn't really something you can answer for sure because we haven't seen it yet but if everythings controlled by causality then why give any apostle the choice, let's say they did say no.

In general they just don't say no. Simple. :void:

Oberi said:
Could you say that because the Godhand gives humans a choice that things are not defiantly all planned out as it seems, that some things are out of Idea's forsight.

It's not like there's an inalterable fate. Sometimes things don't go as planned. Causality has its limits, they're just hard to see. Now I'll admit that it's still a monstrously powerful "tool" to use. It doesn't give a lot of chances to those that oppose its weaver.

Oberi said:
Yea but the Count DID refuse them the second time and he WAS dieing. Thats the proof right there that you can deny the GH.

Like you were told, it was an exception. I don't think that's hard to understand. It's not something that happens very often. It was also the second time he was using his beherit, which is also an uncommon occurrence as far as we know. It's not impossible to refuse to sacrifice, but it's safe to consider it's almost never the case.

fuxberg said:
If a God Hand member dies (assuming that it is possible) do they go to the Vortex?

I guess they do. We can't know for sure until we're told or shown.

fuxberg said:
Or they're sent to another "realm" (Beherit Sword)?

What? I think you're mistaken about something here. When SK used his sword, he opened a breach to the Abyss, and we actually saw the Vortex of Souls come out of that breach and try to get Guts.

A.C · September 15, 2006

i think the fact that the GH do offer a "choice" is rather ingenious because when it's done the apostles will really feel like it was their choice to sacrifice the people who were most dear to them and that increases their own sense of "evilness" and possible selfloathing...

CnC · September 15, 2006

Theres only so far you can speculate on this with evidence.

We've only seen the ceremony twice. One time the person refused, second the person sacrificed. The person who said 'no' was pulled into the vortex of souls, but he was dying anyway.

Seeing as thats really the only example of a "denial" of the GH, theres not much to go on.

LoneWolf · September 18, 2006

Well, that's a question I've thought about too.
It's true that Beherit are linked with their users by the will of God Idea; it's also true that somebody can choose his own destiny, despite what was planned for him (Guts and Caska escaping sacrifice).

So maybe it's possible to refuse God's Hand proposal; I often wondered if this can have some consequences on GH members (a little weakening?).

Anyway, maybe we'll see something like that: Guts is bringing a Beherit with him. I read many speculations about its possible use, for example by some weaker character (Isidro, or Farnaze) after a bloody battle. It would be nice to see them refuse to betray their friend (in case of Isidro, probably with the medium finger up :isidro:

).

Abstraction · September 18, 2006

RandomBastard said:
So what do you think happens if you're sitting there, bleeding all over your Beherit, and you DON'T sacrifice the thing you love most to become an apostle, you just tell Void to piss off?

(Aaz touched on it earlier, but I think this will help you out)

The Count and Wyald accepted great evil into their hearts when they sacrificed the one's they loved. So I'm not too sure someone that hasn't sacrificed anyone, would be sucked into the same level of the abyss, the others were dragged into.

But I agree, we need more evidence before anything can be proved, either way, what would happen.

jackson_hurley · September 19, 2006

the count probably refused them because he didn't want to lose someone precious to him again.. so i suggest that, if an apostle re-use a beherit he could have less difficulty saying no that time (if they still have a little bit of emotions left and/or someone precious)

bastard_swordsman · February 1, 2007

Quick brain-twister:
-All is bound by causality
-The Count's beherit summoned the Godhand
-The Godhand arrived
-They offered the Count his chance
-The count turned them down
-They leave, taking the Count
So, does this mean they came simply to collect the count, but did so in an elaborate fashion?
Or, are the Godhand unaware of what causality holds for them. They didn't see to see the events coming... was it just because of Guts influence on events, or do they know less than they let on?

Aazealh · February 1, 2007

LoneWolf said:
So maybe it's possible to refuse God's Hand proposal; I often wondered if this can have some consequences on GH members (a little weakening?).

I don't see why the GH would be weakened. They don't derive power from "making" apostles as far as we know. They didn't seem to care all that much when the Count refused to sacrifice Theresia.

Abstraction said:
The Count and Wyald accepted great evil into their hearts when they sacrificed the one's they loved. So I'm not too sure someone that hasn't sacrificed anyone, would be sucked into the same level of the abyss, the others were dragged into.

Vargas did join the Vortex of Souls though, and he was only human.

jackson_hurley said:
i suggest that, if an apostle re-use a beherit he could have less difficulty saying no that time (if they still have a little bit of emotions left and/or someone precious)

That really depends on the apostle (as an individual) I think. I imagine that most of them would be like Wyald and willing sacrifice anything in order to live. But ironically, I doubt these guys would have anything "of value" left to sacrifice.

bastard_swordsman said:
All is bound by causality

Or so says Void. :void:

bastard_swordsman said:
They leave, taking the Count

Actually, it's a little different. The Count was taken by the Vortex of Souls, which would have taken him had he died anyway (see the death of Wyald in volume 11). Basically they simply offered him to live in exchange for the life of his daughter. If the beherit hadn't summoned them the result would have been the exact same for the Count.

bastard_swordsman said:
Or, are the Godhand unaware of what causality holds for them. They didn't see to see the events coming... was it just because of Guts influence on events, or do they know less than they let on?

They're just not omniscient, despite what they may be saying. They didn't know the Count would refuse, just like they didn't know Skull Knight would appear during the Occultation and rescue Guts and Casca. It's not so much Guts' influence than their own limitations. They're very powerful, very knowledgeable, but they have limits.

bastard_swordsman · February 1, 2007

...and that's what proves they're fallible. They can doubt SK and Guts' abilities as much as they like, but they won't see it coming until it's too late, just like everyone else...
Which means, causality is as flimsy a concept in the hands of the godhand as any of ours - they simply act, and call it causality. Whilst they could be right, it could be a case of poor self-justification. Ooooh, Void has an insecurity complex... :void:

Aazealh · February 1, 2007

bastard_swordsman said:
...and that's what proves they're fallible. They can doubt SK and Guts' abilities as much as they like, but they won't see it coming until it's too late, just like everyone else...

Haha yeah, exactly. By the time they realize they fucked up it'll be too late for them. :beast:

bastard_swordsman said:
Which means, causality is as flimsy a concept in the hands of the godhand as any of ours - they simply act, and call it causality. Whilst they could be right, it could be a case of poor self-justification.

Let's not go too far. From what we know they do have a higher understanding of causality and the principles defining the Berserk world. They ARE superior beings in a lot of ways, but they can't foresee everything. The role of the great mastermind manipulating causality is more that of the Idea of Evil.

bastard_swordsman · February 1, 2007

Fair enough. All I'm really trying to say is that they can't provide any more convincing argument in favour of causality than any other person. The only advantage they have (in a theological sense) over most of the world is concrete knowledge of the existence of their god.
To be honest, if I met god in person and discovered he was a giant pinecone with tentacles, I'd be rather dissilusioned...

Walter · February 1, 2007

bastard_swordsman said:
Fair enough. All I'm really trying to say is that they can't provide any more convincing argument in favour of causality than any other person. The only advantage they have (in a theological sense) over most of the world is concrete knowledge of the existence of their god.

They can't provide any convincing argument for Causality? Huh? They appeared to Griffith months before his escape from Wyndham and subsequent transformation into Femto and told him what was going to happen. I think you're going too far out of your way to disprove the obvious.

To be honest, if I met god in person and discovered he was a giant pinecone with tentacles, I'd be rather dissilusioned...

It's a uh... a heart dude. :puck:

bastard_swordsman · February 1, 2007

Always looked more like something you'd have to flush twice to me :guts:

I'd never realised it was a heart (duh), just thought that it was meant to be that because it never was human, it doesn't posess a recognisable form.

But yeah, I'll give up nitpicking.

Dirty Dog · February 2, 2007

It would seem that all defiance of the God Hand/Causality revolves around the Skull Knight.
The Skull Knight saved Guts and Caska from the Eclipse. If he had not saved Guts and Caska, Guts would've surely been killed, and never would've ended up nearly killing the Count, and the Count in return wouldn't have had to choose between sacrificing his daughter and a certain death.
In retrospect, Guts (until the Occultation/Eclipse) seemed to have played into the plan of Causality, since it would've been much more difficult for Griffith to ascend to the point where he would've met Charlotte, and he also wouldn't have had to lose Guts in a duel, meaning he never would've gotten depressed and seduced her, which would then mean he wouldn't have been tortured, which would mean he would've been able to continue fighting and never would've needed to use the beherit to begin with.
Just an odd thought.

Aazealh · February 2, 2007

Dirty Dog said:
It would seem that all defiance of the God Hand/Causality revolves around the Skull Knight.

Maybe not all of it, but yeah, he's definitely the main factor as far as we know.

Dirty Dog said:
In retrospect, Guts (until the Occultation/Eclipse) seemed to have played into the plan of Causality

Of course he did, and he even had a very important role in bringing Griffith where he needed to be (both mentally and physically). It just wouldn't have been possible without him. Who's to say Guts doesn't still play a role in the "mysterious plan" too? He's carrying a beherit after all.

Dirty Dog · February 2, 2007

Aazealh said:
Maybe not all of it, but yeah, he's definitely the main factor as far as we know.

Of course he did, and he even had a very important role in bringing Griffith where he needed to be (both mentally and physically). It just wouldn't have been possible without him. Who's to say Guts doesn't still play a role in the "mysterious plan" too? He's carrying a beherit after all.

That's true, although I'm sure that Guts himself won't use it.

Whos beherit was it, anyway? The Count's? Because I remember SK eating the Rosh~'s (couldn't remember how it was spelt), and I remember that it was with him when he was captured by the HICKS (Farnese thought it held some pagan god, unless the translation was bad). (sorry for the totally off-topic question X_x just realized i wasn't sure where it came from)

So... what happens if you deny the God Hand?

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