Author Topic: Could there be two Griffiths?  (Read 8144 times)

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Offline Poetic113084

Could there be two Griffiths?
« on: December 04, 2006, 07:18:40 PM »
I have a crazy idea. The prophecy said there would be a hawk of light and a hawk of darkness. Perhaps, Griffith and Femto will split into two seperate beings. Why do I say this. Well the Neo band of the hawk is made up mostly of honorable apostles and and humans. I don't see theses same people following a Demon king in a age of darkness. That and the opinion that Griffith isn't evil in my mind. He is someone who does whatever necessary in order to achieve his goals. He wanted to obtain his own kingdom. He made a deal with the devil so to speak. He was suppose to lose his compassion, but the presence of Guts son inside his conciousness has seemed to spark compassion in his heart. So I ask the question, is Femto and Griffith going to split into two seperate beings. Essentially halving his god hand power and making him more apt to be defeated by Guts. (as of right now, Griffith would kill guts in seconds.) what do you guys think about this?

Offline yota821

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2006, 07:55:11 PM »
No.  There is only one hawk.  Femto and Griffith (not Griffin, dude :miura:) are one in the same, it's not like Griffith has a multiple personality disorder or anything.  Femto is Griffith, and Griffith is Femto.  There is no separating the two.

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2006, 09:02:25 PM »
Hi Poetic113084, welcome to SK.net. I took the liberty to correct the spelling of Griffith's name in your post, I hope you don't mind. Below are a few comments on your idea.

The prophecy said there would be a hawk of light and a hawk of darkness.

No, actually the prophecy doesn't mention any Hawk of Light. It only talks about a Hawk/Falcon of Darkness.

Perhaps, Griffith and Femto will split into two seperate beings.

Naaah, like yota821 said they're one and the same. It really doesn't seem plausible at this point in the manga. Griffith became Femto during the Eclipse, and in volume 21 Femto was incarnated into a human body, and became a new Griffith. The names are different but in essence they're just variants of the same guy.

Well the Neo band of the hawk is made up mostly of honorable apostles and and humans. I don't see theses same people following a Demon king in a age of darkness.

Hahaha, honorable apostles? I think you're a bit mistaken about the nature of the demon soldiers here. Even though a few of them are acting all noble, they're really just monsters deep down, and they know very well the nature of Griffith. They don't seem to have qualms with what's happening, and they already know what it's leading to, so... And then again the vast majority of them are as "evil" as you get and won't have any problem with the world turning into a nightmare. As for the humans, they're obviously being deceived. By the time they notice something is wrong it'll probably be too late.

That and the opinion that Griffith isn't evil in my mind. He is someone who does whatever necessary in order to achieve his goals. He wanted to obtain his own kingdom. He made a deal with the devil so to speak. He was suppose to lose his compassion, but the presence of Guts son inside his conciousness has seemed to spark compassion in his heart.

Griffith as he was before the Eclipse doesn't exist anymore. Femto is "evil," and he's pretty much become the devil himself, to reuse your analogy. Now about the Demon Child's feelings inside of him, it's a bit complicated. It's true he felt something while watching Guts fight, and he even acted unconsciously to protect Casca moments later. However those aren't Griffith's own feelings, as in the good old Griffith from volume 5. It's the Demon Child interfering with Femto inside the body they apparently share (or more precisely that Femto stole from him). I think it's important to make the distinction here, because it's made in the manga. Griffith himself, or rather Femto, is a cold blooded and emotionless being. The Demon Child however is still present in some form inside the body Femto inhabits and which is now Griffith, and he has feelings and can be considered "good" for the sake of the argument. The duality resides in the two of them (Child and Femto).

So I ask the question, is Femto and Griffith going to split into two seperate beings. Essentially halving his god hand power and making him more apt to be defeated by Guts. (as of right now, Griffith would kill guts in seconds.) what do you guys think about this?

Is he going to split in two? I'm tempted to say it's unlikely. And if he were, it most probably wouldn't be Femto and Griffith. They're really one and the same, and can't be dissociated. That being said, I do see a possibility for a separation: that would be the child separating himself from Griffith. We already had a hint in that direction with the Moonlight Boy's appearance on the beach, even though what it means stays very speculative for now. That's the only way I could see something like this happening.

Offline Donald Shimoda

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 02:02:44 AM »
Perhaps the Demon Child will lead to Griffiths demise.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 06:39:48 AM »
Perhaps the Demon Child will lead to Griffiths demise.

Yeah, it's an interesting possibility that I mentioned it several times in the past. I'm sure he'll be a key factor in the future.

Offline Death May Die

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2006, 07:49:24 AM »
I wonder if Guts kills one form Griffith do both forms die?

I too can see the Demon Child and Casca playing a major role to the Demise to Griffith.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2006, 12:15:44 PM »
I wonder if Guts kills one form Griffith do both forms die?

That's a question we can't answer for now (I'm assuming that by forms you mean material and astral). Basically, it could be possible that if Griffith's corporeal body was "killed" his spirit would remain alive and well, maybe under the form of Femto, or of the Falcon of Light, who knows. But since we have yet to see the extent of Griffith's powers and abilities it's really hard to comment on such an eventuality. We'll have to wait until it actually happens to know for sure.

Offline EndlessSky

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 11:58:44 PM »
Well, we know other members of God Hand can take different forms, die and still exist, like slan as troll intensties and conrad as rats. So I assume that if you killed him in the physical world he would just lose his material body and probably would have to be reborn or whatever. As for killing him in an astral realm or something like the eclipse can't be sure since it still is a physical manifestation and the trolls were able to die, but still we can't be sure until it comes up in the manga, just my ideas on it.

Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 01:31:26 AM »
Well, we know other members of God Hand can take different forms, die and still exist, like slan as troll intensties and conrad as rats. So I assume that if you killed him in the physical world he would just lose his material body and probably would have to be reborn or whatever. As for killing him in an astral realm or something like the eclipse can't be sure since it still is a physical manifestation and the trolls were able to die, but still we can't be sure until it comes up in the manga, just my ideas on it.


I believe that Slan as the troll intestines and the Griffith that is on the earth now are both similar to the Ganishka that all the apostles are attacking at the end of volume 31, (is "Astral Projection" the word for it? Don't think so...) and that it's only because Slan is so powerful that she wasn't actually killed back then. (she probably found the pain a major turn-on, too. :carcus: )

I have no doubt that she actually felt the pain of the DS tearing through her, just like Ganishka felt the pain from being struck by the DS.
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Offline Death May Die

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2006, 05:06:41 AM »
This also raises the question, does very "Spirit" Guts kills actually die or return to the "Spiritual" world. I don't know if there is any evidence towards either.

Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 06:21:02 AM »
This also raises the question, does very "Spirit" Guts kills actually die or return to the "Spiritual" world. I don't know if there is any evidence towards either.
Well, Guts lives "between" those worlds.
Since he didn't see them when he lived only in the "physical" world (excluding the apostles like Zodd and that guy he fought after rescuing Griffith from the tower), I would say that he is killing them in the "spiritual" world already.
(however, it may be different for Apostles... he may actually only be killing their physical being)
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Offline Walter

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2006, 06:44:42 AM »
This also raises the question, does very "Spirit" Guts kills actually die or return to the "Spiritual" world. I don't know if there is any evidence towards either.
There's evidence they stick around until morning. Check volumes 14, 17, 23, instances are all over the place really. They'll keep coming until the sun expels them.

As for where they go after morning, I don't really think they're absorbed into the Vortex every morning. Their spirits linger, otherwise there'd only be as many ghosts as there were dead people the previous day. And there's obviously more than that...
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline EndlessSky

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2006, 07:21:15 PM »
Well, Guts lives "between" those worlds.

Doesn't he only live between the astral world and not the deeper layers like the vortex?

Offline Death May Die

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 06:49:19 PM »
Thats a nice little Layer graph thingy you guys made. That image helps a lot when thinking about this stuff. :void:

Offline Poetic113084

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 03:21:26 AM »
thanks for adressing some of my questions.

Offline logia

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 05:37:20 PM »
Hello SK.net!

Something has been bugging my mind since I saw this speculation thread;
Could Femto actually meet Griffith?
(I'm well aware they're the same person, but think about it)

The requirements for this should obviously be some sort of eclipse, birth or ceremony involving direct contact of the five GH.

Offline vlad

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2006, 07:40:51 PM »
Dudes, not to be rude or anything but "They are the same person" means they cannot "meet". Except perhaps in a weird  "Back to the future" kinda of way   :troll: 

Offline logia

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2006, 08:35:27 PM »
Dudes, not to be rude or anything but "They are the same person" means they cannot "meet". Except perhaps in a weird  "Back to the future" kinda of way   :troll: 

I can't argue on that, let me poke the speculation differently;
New apostle is born, godhands are present - would Griffith still be 'doing his things' while Godhand Crew are summoned? (could they both be present in the material world?)


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2006, 01:30:56 AM »
Well, we know other members of God Hand can take different forms, die and still exist, like slan as troll intensties and conrad as rats.

They didn't die in the cases you mention though, they were manifesting themselves and that stopped at some point, but that's really hardly comparable to Griffith's situation and you can't liken that to really dying. In the case of Slan it was also quite specific, what with it happening in the Qliphoth and such.

As for killing him in an astral realm or something like the eclipse can't be sure since it still is a physical manifestation and the trolls were able to die, but still we can't be sure until it comes up in the manga, just my ideas on it.

Well during the Eclipse or other events where the God Hand coexists with material beings, the GH members themselves don't temporarily acquire corporeal bodies, rather their ethereal forms become palpable to others because they are brought into another realm (deep in the astral world).

I believe that Slan as the troll intestines and the Griffith that is on the earth now are both similar to the Ganishka that all the apostles are attacking at the end of volume 31, (is "Astral Projection" the word for it? Don't think so...) and that it's only because Slan is so powerful that she wasn't actually killed back then.

Not really. Griffith is a different case from both Slan and Ganishka. And Slan and Ganishka are different themselves in that Slan does not have a corporeal body while Ganishka does, and is vastly more powerful than him. So powerful in fact that she has trouble manifesting herself in the material world, like the other members of the God Hand. That's why Femto's incarnation into a new Griffith is such a big deal. As for Slan only not dying because she's so powerful... I don't think that's really making a point. Besides Ganishka was hit in the forehead in the same way and didn't die, far from it (and his "power" is a lot weaker than Slan's).

Doesn't he only live between the astral world and not the deeper layers like the vortex?

He lives in the interstice that exists between the astral and the material worlds. The Interstice is basically the shallowest layer of the astral world. It's got nothing to do with the Vortex of Souls, and Guts certainly does not live "between" there and the material world. That couldn't be possible as the Vortex of Souls exists deep in the astral world, far from the material side.

Hello SK.net!

Something has been bugging my mind since I saw this speculation thread;
Could Femto actually meet Griffith?
(I'm well aware they're the same person, but think about it)

Hey there logia,

As vlad said, this is just impossible. It's like your body meeting your soul, that's what we're talking about here. It just can't happen. What we call Griffith now is just Femto wearing a meat costume. If Femto gets out then all that's left is a corpse (not taking the Demon Child into account here as to not make things too complicated).

New apostle is born, godhands are present - would Griffith still be 'doing his things' while Godhand Crew are summoned? (could they both be present in the material world?)

Griffith wouldn't be there with them. This was hinted/shown in the Dreamcast game: when Balzac's beherit opened the door to the God Hand's realm, we only saw four of them. Femto wasn't present because he couldn't be, he was in his new Griffith body, doing his thing someplace in Midland. Also, the God Hand doesn't come into the material realm when a beherit is activated, on the contrary it's the future apostle that is brought to their dimension.

Offline Locus of Agony

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 06:06:03 PM »
This is pure speculation, but I would say Griffith, Femto, and Griffith reborn are three very different people.

Don't get me wrong, they are one being, always have been, always will be. But in the same way that the you or I at the age of 7 is a completely different entity from the you or I at 14 and again at 30, so are the three Griffiths different from eachother.

I doubt Griffith will ever have 'to face' Femto in any manner but pyschologically, femto merely being on side of himself, but I think the orignal poster was reffering to how different Griffith is from Femto.

Suffice it to say, no, there are not two hawks, merely one ever changing one.
The question one should be asking themself is will that hawk bring everything to darkness as prophisized.

Unless Guts can do something to stop him, it certaintly seems that way, but I wouldn't count the hawk out yet. It seems to me, if anyone will put a stop to the dark events set in motion it will be Griffith, not Guts.
Griffith is in pursuit of a Idea, (reference intended) a Dream, that dream will destroy everything unless Guts mangaes to kill him or show him, his original dream has been perverted to the point where it has become the cause of everything he wished to put a stop to.

I personally belive that the original Griffith, the idealist if you will, still exists within Femto/griffith Reborn, and that it will only be with the redemption (or abandonment) of his dream that the world will change for the better.

This will of course happen sometime around Berserk volume 127. :void:
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Offline Aeglos

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2007, 11:45:29 PM »
Okay, I never ever post... but seriously...

There is no difference between Griffith and Femto, there is no ever changing persona inside him... there is no corrupted dream whatsoever (within him I mean), no multiple personalities... he just simply is as always has been. (bearing the demi-god powers and position he now has in mind).

Griffith was no idealist. Idealism as an ethic belief implies that the individual pursues an ethical principle or value as a main goal. There were no ethics in Griffith's dream or constant morality in his actions. (he even prostituted himself!)... he did not seek peace or freedom... not liberty of speech, not even one bit of love or honesty... He never fought to "put an end" to anything. He just wanted to reach the top, to climb as high as anyone has ever gone and beyond, with his own two hands, crushing whoever stood in his way even if he was his friend. He wanted glory, recognition, he wanted to be one of the key elements of history. There is no ethics in that... he had no remorse in killing, assassinating, stealing. The fact that he was a charming gentleman does not change that fact. He was one cold blooded vengeful greedy man  :griff:

Besides, Griffith CHOSE to be part of the god hand willingly, there was no replacement, or superposition of personalities or anything, he did what the always had... he saw an opportunity towards his goal and grabbed it. If he hurt someone in the process, even close "friends" or companions... that was okay with him. His dream was his prime directive. Nothing else mattered. Guts made him doubt his motives and ways at some times, but that was temporary... in the end it did not change his mind or way of thinking (if anything it might had encouraged it... remembering what happened at the eclipse when he saw guts before making the sacrifice)... and that was even confirmed at the Hill of Swords.
Femto, Griffith and Griffith reincarnated are the same mind, there is no split recessed "Good Griffith" hidden inside him. At most he might have a change of mind at some point in the future (with his past doubts as evidence) but even that is not likely since he has ever been so fixated in his dream.

Now that he is reincarnated he is just the same man, different appearance. He still seeks his dream of having his own kingdom. Whatever happens after he accomplishes it, I think is part of Idea's plan... not Griffith's. So his dream has little to do with the real cause of the world being "engulfed in darkness". It's just causality. Idea merely orchestrated everything through it to make use of Griffith's dream for itself and his evil-idea-plan.  :void:

I now humbly await corrections and holy smiting from Aazealh and the rest of the more knowledgeable members. :puck:
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Offline Locus of Agony

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 04:30:05 PM »
But Griffith HAS changed, dramatically, over the course of the series. He did not even (consiously) wish for the eclipse to happen. He didn't intend to destroy the hawks and sacrifice them all to the God Hand.

After his transformation int Femto he abandonned his humanity (like all Disciples) by destroying what he once cared for most. (Casca, Guts) I'm not saying Femto and Griffith are different entities, but there IS a big difference between the two, don't you think?
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Offline Aeglos

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Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2007, 11:55:10 PM »
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But Griffith HAS changed, dramatically, over the course of the series. He did not even (consiously) wish for the eclipse to happen. He didn't intend to destroy the hawks and sacrifice them all to the God Hand.

He didn't intend to destroy them, because they were his instrument(s) to fulfill his dream. The eclipse posed a new and better way to accomplish his goal.
He was never forced to sacrifice them, it was a choice... his true self was revealed before him. The sum of his life, and the path that he had taken through it... he chose to continue on that path, not sway from it, and doomed them all in exchange of power.  And he did it with a smile in his face.

Quote
After his transformation int Femto he abandonned his humanity (like all Disciples) by destroying what he once cared for most. (Casca, Guts) I'm not saying Femto and Griffith are different entities, but there IS a big difference between the two, don't you think?

What Griffith cared the most wasn't Casca or Guts... it was his dream, always his dream. Guts did make him dubious at some moments, but never really changed that fact. He clearly stated that he would crush even his friends if they stood in the way of his dream, so as much as he appreciated Guts or Casca, they were always in second place.
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Offline Phemt81

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2007, 08:56:24 PM »

Griffith was no idealist. Idealism as an ethic belief implies that the individual pursues an ethical principle or value as a main goal. There were no ethics in Griffith's dream or constant morality in his actions. (he even prostituted himself!)...

Quite the contrary; he prostituted himself to feed his subordinates/friends and horses, to buy weapons etc.
He hated himself for that act, he harmed his own body remembering those facts!
He often acted for the companions' sake, he saved Casca, and many times had risked his own life to save Guts (Zodd?)

He was never forced to sacrifice them, it was a choice...
What Griffith cared the most wasn't Casca or Guts... it was his dream, always his dream. Guts did make him dubious at some moments, but never really changed that fact.

He lost his own ambitions, and even his own life for Guts, what are you talking about?

Maybe you are not considering the part in which Conrad lets Griffith see his entire life, in my opinion, it is Conrad who succeed in making Griffith take in consideration the sacrifice option...

Back on topic,i always thought that (New) Griffith and Femto(LOL) were two separate beings, cause in the manga, i don't remember any reference to the fact that is Femto who takes the control over the demon child's body (if he has one!) or of that strange version of Beherit.

I have only seen this "living" Beherit devouring the Guts/Casca's child, and the result was this new Griffith.

Maybe someone can help me understand where i can find the part in which is explained that Femto took control of that (those?) body  :serpico:
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Offline Smith

Re: Could there be two Griffith's
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2007, 10:36:51 AM »
As for where they go after morning, I don't really think they're absorbed into the Vortex every morning. Their spirits linger, otherwise there'd only be as many ghosts as there were dead people the previous day. And there's obviously more than that...

Most likely the spirit hide in shelters place during daytime... This is shown in vol 17 when Guts trying to find a spot to rest in the morning and realised the building is filled with spirits (That why he slept near the Stonehedge-like structure before the Demon child appears)
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