Speculation of Universal Proportions. Ha!

Griffith · June 28, 2002

A while back Olivier posted information from chapter 201 that divulged more of the inner workings of the Berserk world than ever before, read read...

There are three "parallel" worlds:

* the "real", physical world
* the astral world, the world of spirits (also called the "Kakuryo" (Japanese term))
* the world of essences, of ideas (I'm talking about the Greek word "idea", as in Platonic philosophy, not the English one)

Sorcerers use their ancient art to free their astral body from the restraints of the physical world in order to explore the astral one.

The first stratum, the "surface" of the astral world is called the "Interstice" ("Hazama" in Japanese... that's where Guts and Casca now stand because of their brands, according to the Skull Knight).
Legendary creatures, such as Elves or Trolls, live there as astral beings.
It's not that different from the "real world" because it's formed by astral counterparts of parts of the physical world. As a matter of fact, it looks like the legendary creatures I mentioned before may be the product of human beliefs... I'm not sure about that part.
It's also the place where the souls of dead people who "couldn't let go" of the real world are wandering. If they lose their "form", they disappear from this layer of the astral world.
The power of Guts and Casca's brands makes them "visible" for these lost souls, if the souls can "feel" their presence well enough, they can also "touch" them as if they were real.
That's also how people can see or touch creatures like Elves as if they were physical: tales of their existence have existed for so long that they seem to "naturally" belong in this world, for humans. But things are changing, mostly because of the Holy See and its teachings, and more and more people can't see Elves anymore. Being unable to communicate with humans, they began to disappear in the astral world.

The deep layers of the astral world are inhabited by extremely powerful astral beings that are referred to as angels, demons or gods.
The Skull Knight used similar terms when talking about the God Hands, so I'd say that's where they are.

According to Flora, a living being can't go deeper than that, but the next layer would be the one where territories generally called "heaven" and "hell" are.

And even deeper, in the abyss, there may be... something else. ^^

...but thinking about how three worlds with multiple layers function in conjunction with each other is frustrating enough, actually explaining it clearly and concisely is near impossible. So from that, I eventually created this…

…the flux capacitor! No, wait, this is a model of the Berserk Universe and how it works. Think of it as a tool that shows the relationship between the different worlds, layers, and beings of the Berserk world. If you read Olivier’s quote you should be able to figure it out pretty quick (or maybe I just think that cause I made the damn thing, I'll specify...). The key thing is to determine what layer the being in question is based in. They can still interact with adjacent layers, just to a lesser extent the farther removed it is from their own. A layer any farther than two away from the one a being is based in, and the being has no dominion in that layer. For example, when Guts was a normal human, he couldn’t transcend the Nexus. Now that he is branded and in the Interstice, he can interact with the Vortex and it on him (volume 3). One of the best examples of how the chart works is God Hand. God Hand is located within the Nexus, the center of the Berserk universe, this allows them to interact with all other layers in some capacity. This clearly illustrates the role God Hand plays in the Universe, and they’re correlation with Idea; Idea is in the Abyss, it can reach as far as the Nexus, from there God Hand can do Idea’s bidding in the physical world through the Apostles in the Interstice. Those are just a couple of basic examples of ways to use the chart, but already you can see the way it might give us a better understanding of the Berserk world than ever before. I consider this my biggest theory ever, in scope and importance.

-Griffith

P.S. Oh yeah, and don’t forget, the alternative to me having unlocked the secrets of the Berserk Universe is that all this is 100% bullshit. I hope not, but it's something to keep in mind. ;)

trapped_soul · June 28, 2002

great! I'd like miura to read this, griffith.
just one question: what is the difference between the nexus and the vortex? who belongs to those layers?

and:
does this drawing imply that there's no god, only the god of evil known as idea? cause noone would associate a "positive god" with the abyss, righty?

Griffith · June 28, 2002

great! I'd like miura to read this, griffith.

Thanks a lot man, the thing kinda just created itself.

just one question: what is the difference between the nexus and the vortex? who belongs to those layers?

The Nexus is center of the Universe, this alone makes it arguably the most important layer; it’s the one layer that any being from any other layer can interact in. Besides that, and also because of it really, it’s the God Hand dimension.

The Vortex is seen in volume three and eleven, it’s just where souls go when they die, the Heaven/Hell of Berserk or, “The place where we become one” to paraphrase Griffith. The Universe diagram essentially gives a working reason why you need to die to reach the afterlife or vice versa. Take Wild’s death for instance; the Vortex doesn’t open up in the physical plane, it comes from within him because he’s in the Interstice. The Vortex didn’t try to take the Hawks or Guts, because they were in the Physical layer. But in volume 3, the souls were able to simply grab Guts and try to pull him in because he was then based in the Interstice. Just as they took the Count, but not Teresia since she was physical as well.

So far everything is working out on it's own with this thing. I’m surprised a big discrepancy hasn’t come up yet.

It’s still early though. =)

-Griffith

P.S. Concerning the “positive God”, until it’s a factor in the series it’s not a factor in the diagram. I certainly think there is room for one if need be, but this wasn’t created with such a bird in mind. One theory I get from the diagram though is that the so called "positive God" could be considered mankind itself.

Begemot · June 28, 2002

If I remember correctly, Idea came about due to man's desire for a reason for all the evil in the world.

If so, then wouldn't humanity have shaped the Ideal?

How about a secondary diagram, with a circle,

Ideal>\/
/\ \/
/\ Astral
Mortal<\/

The Mortal Plane shapes the Ideal Plane, which shapes the Astral Plane, which in turn shapes the Mortal plane.

Now Flora states that the planes are converging. Before I speculate further, is it all three that are converging, or just the Astral and Mortal planes?

maximus · June 29, 2002

puh i really like ur interpretation of the "berserk universe"!
it s really complex and made me think hard about a few things...
yet it seems to make sense,but on the other hand...
wait a mo...yes it does!?
let me think about it once more...

P.S. Concerning the “positive God”, until it’s a factor in the series it’s not a factor in the diagram. I certainly think there is room for one if need be, but this wasn’t created with such a bird in mind. One theory I get from the diagram though is that the so called "positive God" could be considered mankind itself.

thats a tough theory!
but how could be the vulnerable, weak and dumb mankind be the positive god?
how can the whole mankind be the absolut good!?

however if "the positive god" would be the mankind itself ,that d mean that they can t expect any help or support from their god they did believe in till now...
so their is no god supporting them?!
if thats the case it would mean that mankind itself ís responsible for its fate....
somehow guts would be than a great representative of this mankind that gotta fight for themselves in an endless journey of quest.

hmm... thats another weird one.O_O
sorry folks! :-[

Walter · June 29, 2002

The Vortex is seen in volume three and eleven, it’s just where souls go when they die, the Heaven/Hell of Berserk or, “The place where we become one” to paraphrase Griffith. The Universe diagram essentially gives a working reason why you need to die to reach the afterlife or vice versa. Take Wild’s death for instance; the Vortex doesn’t open up in the physical plane, it comes from within him because he’s in the Interstice. The Vortex didn’t try to take the Hawks or Guts, because they were in the Physical layer. But in volume 3, the souls were able to simply grab Guts and try to pull him in because he was then based in the Interstice. Just as they took the Count, but not Teresia since she was physical as well.

I think it's worth mentioning that after the 'arms of the vortex' (that's what I'm going to call it/them) have taken the vessel of the claimed/executed/sacrificed, what's left is the Worldly form. The example in my mind: Wild. The arms of the vortex take his apostle form only, the interstice form, if you will, and leave behind the physical body. Also, Roshinu's "children" exhibit this same effect.

So then, during an apostle ceremony, does one really sacrifice themselves fully? Or merely their souls/astral worth? Keep in mind, we only saw the above, particular occurance because of the death of Wild's physical form, or was it the death of the astral form? Hmm.... The seperation between Apostle and Human is very curious...

This also raises the question of where exactly Apostle's lie in all of this. I'd like to see a chart of where every character we know lies...well... that might be a tad redundant, so let's try to get a working list of characters that are of special notice. Well, here's my shot:

Beings of the World
Farneeze
Serpico
Isidro
Band of Hawks

Evidence for this is pretty obvious. To elaborate however, they have been shown to be able to interact with ghosts on the Interstice, Guts and Casca of cource, and Puck. The Hawks took place in an eclipse, demonstating their ability to take it up the ass hardcore in the Nexus.

Beings of The Interstice
Skull Knight
Griffith
Zodd/Apostles
Guts/Casca
Beast
Schierke/Flora
Puck

Skull Knight: That's right, Im putting my foot down and saying Skully is (normally) a being of the Interstice. He was able to break through the Nexus in the eclipse, has that groovy mist, and well... like all speculations, it just fits. According to Flora, the longer one is in the Interstice, the more one's hold on the physical world is strenghtened by one's Astral self. Skully, and his wacky flying horse could be the pefect example of how much a change the Interstice brings on a person. This, and the "pity among sufferer's" comment alludes to the fact that maybe Skully is branded, like Guts. Either that or hes similar to...

Griffith: is a curious one... but because he had to be 'reborn' into a new form, I'm going to take a bet and say hes in the Interstice, because he already was an Astral form before. He has exhibited powers such as interacting with souls of the departed, as in Ch 195. And if Griffith is in the Interstice now... that would let mister Gaiseri- Err I mean Skull Knight fit perfectly in here... right?

Zodd/Apostles: Based on Griffith's '2 astrophysical moves per player' theorem, the Apostles have exhibited the ability to be seen in the physical world, to take active roles in the Nexus, and be sucked down by the Vortex. Sounds perfect for the Interstice to me.

Guts/Casca: Need I say more? I think it's been pretty well spelled out for everyone at least twice now in the manga.

Beast: This is the only place this guy fits in, theoritically. Since he's a direct part of Guts, he doesn't have another form. However it is an interesting character to take note of, because who knows what will come from it if it ever does manifest...

Hmm.... This is really a tangent, but it does somewhat relate to the seperation of worlds, and the qualities exhibited of the individuals.

A note on Beherits and Skully
Any clues as to where these cute little guys fit in? An old theory is starting to warm up to me again... One on why Skully eats beherits. Im starting to believe (once again)that he holds them (not eats...) to keep himself in the interstice. This would allude that he is beyond the interstice, perhaps he is more "at home" in the Nexus? The catalyst for all this speculation on Skully is mostly because its curious that he is "empty", and that he hunts for beherits.

One last note.

P.S. Concerning the “positive God”, until it’s a factor in the series it’s not a factor in the diagram. I certainly think there is room for one if need be, but this wasn’t created with such a bird in mind. One theory I get from the diagram though is that the so called "positive God" could be considered mankind itself.

Well, maybe one to rise from humanity, not necessarily humanity as a whole. White Hawk anyone?

PS: Terribly sorry for the length. And no I will not start another thread to make this more nice and neat. SUCK IT DOWN.

Lliugusamui · June 29, 2002

How about a secondary diagram, with a circle,

Ideal>\/
/\ \/
/\ Astral
Mortal<\/

Well, the thing in this circle is that there are two layer unknown :

Ideal
Abyss
?? Vortex
Nexus
Mortal Word Interstice ?? Astral

well, it is more a pyramid i have made ^^
the ?? are thus the layer of mortal + ideal and the one that is equivalent to world to mortal or abyss to ideal, but to astral ...

Griffith · June 29, 2002

Now Flora states that the planes are converging. Before I speculate further, is it all three that are converging, or just the Astral and Mortal planes?

I think it’s more like only the Mortal and Ideal planes are converging. The astral plane is a world that’s created by those two worlds, the same way the Interstice is the borderland between the World and the Nexus. In relation to my diagram, my theory on the world converging is everything moving towards the center making one circle, one layer, one plane, one world, one BIG FUCKING MESS! ;D

"Today's weather; the giant vortex of souls surrounding the giant heart in the sky will be partitcularly nasty today."

The example in my mind: Wild. The arms of the vortex take his apostle form only, the interstice form, if you will, and leave behind the physical body. Also, Roshinu's "children" exhibit this same effect.

Good call man! The same thought half formed in my mind yesterday when I re-read volume three and saw the Count’s human body lying the wreckage of the castale, but it just didn’t really click in.

Well, maybe one to rise from humanity, not necessarily humanity as a whole. White Hawk anyone?

I meant that, going by platonic theory, mankind is an imperfect replica of Idea. The World and the Abyss, although completely separate save for their mutual connection to the astral world, affect each other. It’s almost the chicken and the egg theory; who’s really shaping whom?

SUCK IT DOWN.

HA!

-Griffith

White_Hawk · July 17, 2002

First of all let me express my sincere congratulations to Griffith for the great post which is a worthyaddition to the berserk world speculation section...
Might I add, it could be palced within the mammoth faq.
Next, I beg you all to excuse my poor enrish since I do have a history of misunderstandings within my previous posts.
So off we go...

So then, during an apostle ceremony, does one really sacrifice themselves fully? Or merely their souls/astral worth? Keep in mind, we only saw the above, particular occurance because of the death of Wild's physical form, or was it the death of the astral form? Hmm.... The seperation between Apostle and Human is very curious...

but do they sacrifice themselves? They do sacrifice something worthy to their being, usually love placed in the person they sacrifice, but as for themselves, their phisical integrity...I dunno, the egg d00d said he sacrificed his world or his body ?
(sorry 4 the vagueness but I'm away from my volumes)
If it's his world, then the self preservation might stand some ground. The very act of sacrifice is also a great display of egoism, since you give yourself to evil anyway...

A note on Beherits and Skully
Any clues as to where these cute little guys fit in? An old theory is starting to warm up to me again... One on why Skully eats beherits. Im starting to believe (once again)that he holds them (not eats...) to keep himself in the interstice. This would allude that he is beyond the interstice, perhaps he is more "at home" in the Nexus? The catalyst for all this speculation on Skully is mostly because its curious that he is "empty", and that he hunts for beherits.

Great theory. May it be that on his millenial quest to eliminate the GH he is actually storing them away from further usage also, reducing the number of apostles in circulation?

And a side note.
There are various kinds of apostles as we estabilished before, but also, and I'm not sure wheter I'm repeating someone theory (but I've been away quite a while), may there be various levels of apostle status.
Griffs new buddies seem pretty eloquent compared to the casual mince meat Gatts encounters in his many fights. The Snake Baron would fit the gang nicely, being arisotcratic and all, opposed to some crazy ass Roshinu or that first guy that beta tested the Dragonslayer.
So, I'd say that some apostles may have a greater degree of knowledgde of their actual state, placing them in different spheres...or something...

Well, maybe one to rise from humanity, not necessarily humanity as a whole. White Hawk anyone?

I still think that Gatts is the white hawk, since everything is opposed in the world of Berserk. The saviour, Griffith, in his actual form is a freakin demon that lurks under the veil of a military leader on a mission of liberation. Just what the folk need.
Gatts, on the other hand, crawls through mud to get to him. In the end, when we see Griffs true form (which I immagine will be something like femto <- really similiar to a hawk of darkness).

Walter · July 17, 2002

First of all let me express my sincere congratulations to Griffith for the great post which is a worthyaddition to the berserk world speculation section...
Might I add, it could be palced within the mammoth faq.

I do think this is a very interesting and groundbreaking post, but I don't really know where it'd fit in the FAQ. Should I just add it to the characters section? Maybe this means the FAQ needs to be expounded...

They do sacrifice something worthy to their being, usually love placed in the person they sacrifice,

No, they sacrifice the flesh of the person they love. If it was his love for his wife that the Snail Count sacrificed, why was he crying as he did it?

Great theory. May it be that on his millenial quest to eliminate the GH he is actually storing them away from further usage also, reducing the number of apostles in circulation?

We've all heard that before though. Im trying to move onto new speculation territory.

I still think that Gatts is the white hawk, since everything is opposed in the world of Berserk. The saviour, Griffith, in his actual form is a freakin demon that lurks under the veil of a military leader on a mission of liberation. Just what the folk need.
Gatts, on the other hand, crawls through mud to get to him. In the end, when we see Griffs true form (which I immagine will be something like femto <- really similiar to a hawk of darkness).

And I still think you're crazy :-/ If you had more evidence to why Guts is the White Hawk more than Griffith, I might consider it, but as it stands, the evidence is overwhelmingly in Griffiths favor.

White_Hawk · July 18, 2002

And I still think you're crazy :-/

I'll take that as a joke, since everyone thought that Giordano Bruno was crazy too.

If you had more evidence to why Guts is the White Hawk more than Griffith, I might consider it, but as it stands, the evidence is overwhelmingly in Griffiths favor.

Unfortunately I have no evidence but my supernatural inner sense. :-/
However, it goes with my theory that the prophecy is written by GH (not directly, of course) and that Griffith will bring endless misery to the world, something like Gaiseric did in the past, under the mask of a saviour.
I'll dig up something soon...

Griffith · July 18, 2002

I remember being a big proponent of this theory (well, more so than fanatical, traditionalist, right-wing, nay saying Berserk killjoy Wally B. =) Anyway, I see nothing crazy about this theory, it’s a logical literary switch for Miura to pull, considering Guts has been known as the “Dark Hawk (Falcon of Darkness)” for so long and Griffith the “Falcon of Light”.

If you had more evidence to why Guts is the White Hawk more than Griffith, I might consider it, but as it stands, the evidence is overwhelmingly in Griffiths favor.

Oh, if I must! If memory serves the Dark Falcon is the “master of the sinful black lambs and the King of the blind white ones”, correct? I don’t know about you, but that sounds a whole shitload like Griffith. And…Guts plans to stop Griffith (or at least to confront him and his horde in some capacity), no? So, to me, it looks like the evidence (besides Griffith wearing white and Guts wearing black, by the way, nice juxtaposition, Miura) is overwhelmingly in our very own White_Hawk’s favor.

-Griffy T.

P.S. Also, I believe Poopsie speculated that Griffith was the Dark Falcon, or at least evoked the prophecy after seeing him. That would be “official” evidence you could cash at the money bank.

sil · July 18, 2002

reason why i think skullknight eats the behelit is to keep them away from mortals imho.

Vermillion · July 18, 2002

Oh, if I must! If memory serves the Dark Falcon is the “master of the sinful black lambs and the King of the blind white ones”, correct? I don’t know about you, but that sounds a whole shitload like Griffith. And…Guts plans to stop Griffith (or at least to confront him and his horde in some capacity), no? So, to me, it looks like the evidence (besides Griffith wearing white and Guts wearing black, by the way, nice juxtaposition, Miura) is overwhelmingly in our very own White_Hawk’s favor.

-Griffy T.

P.S. Also, I believe Poopsie speculated that Griffith was the Dark Falcon, or at least evoked the prophecy after seeing him. That would be “official” evidence you could cash at the money bank.

Dang it! Dang IT!!

I was just about to point those TWO HUGE facts out!!

@&?!*$

ok....calming down now.... :)

Walter · July 18, 2002

Oh, if I must! If memory serves the Dark Falcon is the “master of the sinful black lambs and the King of the blind white ones”, correct? I don’t know about you, but that sounds a whole shitload like Griffith. And…Guts plans to stop Griffith (or at least to confront him and his horde in some capacity), no? So, to me, it looks like the evidence (besides Griffith wearing white and Guts wearing black, by the way, nice juxtaposition, Miura) is overwhelmingly in our very own White_Hawk’s favor.

-Griffy T.

P.S. Also, I believe Poopsie speculated that Griffith was the Dark Falcon, or at least evoked the prophecy after seeing him. That would be “official” evidence you could cash at the money bank.

Youre using reverse logic to support a speculated idea. Its like trying to stay afloat on the ocean by hanging onto several spoonfuls of gravy. I'm not denying that these are radical possibilities, but its not really solid territory guys... I might as well say Guts is actually Gambino, since they have the same roles, but how confusing and arbitrary does that sound? Oh just about as much as this White/Dark hawk nonsense.

Think of it without the jargon. Go on, shed that nice comfy literary shell and explain exactly why Guts is the White Hawk. Griffith being the Dark Hawk is rather obvious, but Guts with his raping Beast form? Now thats some white hawk potential right there! I was also reminded of Guts being the white hawk when I was reading through volume 16 where Guts was eating baby intestines. If you're telling me that the White Hawk is going to be Guts simply because hes going to kill the Dark Hawk, Im going to have to go ahead and disagree with you. That just sounds really shallow.

White_Hawk · July 18, 2002

Think of it without the jargon. Go on, shed that nice comfy literary shell and explain exactly why Guts is the White Hawk. Griffith being the Dark Hawk is rather obvious, but Guts with his raping Beast form? Now thats some white hawk potential right there! I was also reminded of Guts being the white hawk when I was reading through volume 16 where Guts was eating baby intestines. If you're telling me that the White Hawk is going to be Guts simply because hes going to kill the Dark Hawk, Im going to have to go ahead and disagree with you. That just sounds really shallow.

You are right to disagree. It is a purely logical conclusion, especially with the gory details you so promptly provided.
However, remeber that we are probably at the half of the story, (maybe a bit further), and plenty of questions are still far from being answered. Gatts origin, Skully's story, the whole angel thing...
I know we speculate a lot, but no one foresaw a neo taka no dan right after the eclipse, right?
I just think there is not enough material to feed this theory, but you don't expect Isidro or Serpico to be white hawks either, and somebody's gotta be it.
Gatts was my choice because he is afterall the main character and because he is the only one with the potential to become the saviour...

even tough I suspect it'll be a happy ending.

On a side note: have you bastards noticed I stopped calling the main character Gatsu and switched to Gatts instead.
You people are so influential :-*

Griffith · July 18, 2002

*returns from the dentist; drained of funds and sore*

Okay old goat, now we’ll do some REAL speculating (better take cover under some “truths”) and see who’s really riding shotgun in the gravy boat and who’s Captain of the U.S.S. BADASS!

Youre using reverse logic to support a speculated idea. Its like trying to stay afloat on the ocean by hanging onto several spoonfuls of gravy. I'm not denying that these are radical possibilities, but its not really solid territory guys... I might as well say Guts is actually Gambino, since they have the same roles, but how confusing and arbitrary does that sound? Oh just about as much as this White/Dark hawk nonsense.

That’s pretty dogmatic and tedious though, isn’t it? I might as well say there’s no solid factual proof that Skull Knight is in any way related to Gaiseric, so scrap all theories relying on that radical possibility.

Think of it without the jargon. Go on, shed that nice comfy literary shell and explain exactly why Guts is the White Hawk.

Oh yeah, I love it when you ask for it! Okay, a simple factual answer; he shows that mankind can stand up against God’s and Fate and conquer their own destiny. Sounds like the kind of hope mankind will need in the time of darkness. Those that now hate Guts will come to revere him. I mean, cripes man, Guts whole relationship with Farnese and others like her is the crux of this, he gave her hope in something besides God, it’s foreshadowing up the ass.

Griffith being the Dark Hawk is rather obvious, but Guts with his raping Beast form? Now thats some white hawk potential right there! I was also reminded of Guts being the white hawk when I was reading through volume 16 where Guts was eating baby intestines.

A giant of man once told me (earlier today on AIM in fact), “Every man can change.” Maybe he was just a giant of an ass?

Anyway, how does this disqualify Guts from potentially being the Falcon of Light? There’s no rulebook on the subject, the beast is now merely Guts’ greatest test, not yet failure.

If you're telling me that the White Hawk is going to be Guts simply because hes going to kill the Dark Hawk, Im going to have to go ahead and disagree with you. That just sounds really shallow.

That’s not what I meant at all, but a shallow individual might interpret it that way. ;D

I know we speculate a lot, but no one foresaw a neo taka no dan right after the eclipse, right?

I’m sure Olivier did.

On a side note: have you bastards noticed I stopped calling the main character Gatsu and switched to Gatts instead.
You people are so influential :-*

Call him Guts and we’ll be proud of our influence. ;)

-Griffith

P.S. White_Hawk asked a good question, who do you think the Falcon of Light is, it’s easy to disagree when you have no official stance to explain yourself. So, c’mon, is it Niko or Zepec?

Walter · July 18, 2002

Choose alcohol. Choose pro-active child abuse. Choose Zepek in 2004

Vampire_Hunter_Bob · July 18, 2002

Choose alcohol. Choose pro-active child abuse. Choose Zepek in 2004

Zepek would want you to believe he's pro-active child abuse and pro alcohol, but we at the vote Niko foundation have discovered what Zepek really wants. Zepek is for using your souls to clean up the giant hole in the ozone,
would you really trust a crazy nut case that never stops by his local bars or is never seen beating his kids in public?

Vote Niko as Falcon of Light, in 2004. will make a diffrence.

White_Hawk · July 19, 2002

P.S. White_Hawk asked a good question, who do you think the Falcon of Light is, it’s easy to disagree when you have no official stance to explain yourself. So, c’mon, is it Niko or Zepec?

As some might guess, I'd go for GUTS after Farnese brainwashes him with all the churchy stuff OR after he finds out that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering... *yoda voice* ;D
Anyway, some miracolous realisation turns ur hero away from the beast.

My second bet is Griffith, actually, the lame dual character theory. At some point, Griffith discovers he is still human and has the hots for Guts swety body and workers outfit, separates from the EVIL Griffith and fights himself. Guts retires into country life with Caska and Farnese.

THe third bet is Puck. He mutates into some bigass efl with angel wings after all elfheim converges into one super efl body, wreacking havoc and fighting Idea. ::)

Graywords · July 19, 2002

Personally, I think Guts is the Hawk of Darkness, Griffith is the Hawk of Light, and the religious prophecies and texts are quite simply a misleading of the facts. The religious texts were written by the very humanity which desired and created Idea, after all. Idea could very well be the "God" of man's religion in this time period, and his "avatar" of sorts could be considered the Hawk of Light... and Griffith would be that avatar.

Besides, just because some prophecies/books say the Hawk of Light is all that and a bag of Lays' dill-flavored chips, doesn't mean he's the "good" guy. Saviour of few and slaughterer of many, perhaps?

Walter · July 19, 2002

Personally, I think Guts is the Hawk of Darkness, Griffith is the Hawk of Light, and the religious prophecies and texts are quite simply a misleading of the facts. The religious texts were written by the very humanity which desired and created Idea, after all. Idea could very well be the "God" of man's religion in this time period, and his "avatar" of sorts could be considered the Hawk of Light... and Griffith would be that avatar.

As much as I hate to say it, read the end of chapter 186, what Poopsie says:

(Trans. by Erias)

"We must make use of the Falcon of Darkness.
The king of the blind white sheep is the master of the black sheep with a burden of sins.
He is the one who shall bring true darkness to the world.
"

This shakes things up a bit.

Olivier_Hague · July 20, 2002

"We must make use of the Falcon of Darkness.
The king of the blind white sheep is the master of the black sheep with a burden of sins.
He is the one who shall bring true darkness to the world.
"

Bad translation. Sorry. ^^;
It's actually something like that:
"The Angel shall be a Falcon of Darkness. Both master of the sinful black sheeps and king of the blind white ones. The one who shall bring an age of darkness upon the world."

Walter · July 20, 2002

Thanks for the heads up (was counting on it). Will update the translation.

The13thScroll · August 18, 2002

Well I'll be damned. This is a very interesting topic and it saved me from posting a similiar one that would have been nowhere near as good. At first I was thinkin that Guts, being nicknamed the Dark Hawk, would eventually be the bad guy and kill the hope of Midland, Griffith, called the White Hawk. But right now I'm not so sure. We still don't know Griffith's true intentions and what he'd do after he was king. I think Griffith is the Dark Hawk, evil at heart who covers up sinister intentions with supernatural grace and charisma. I really have no fuckin clue as to who the White Hawk is. I believe Guts is just a pawn or a tool right now, being used by whatever forces that want to see Griffith dead. Thats enough out of me. Good topic, thought provoking, something like this has been on my mind for a long time.

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