Something about Griffith just doesn't seem right to me

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vanheat

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willowhugger said:
An interesting note, I've always felt that the most interesting part of Guts decision to leave the Hawks to become Griffith's equal is I'm fairly sure he was wrong to take Grifith's words to Charlotte at face value.
I don't think he took Griffith's words at face value nor was wrong to. From the manga he seemed to have thought everything out and was very sure of what he was doing. The words to Charlotte revealed a part of Griffith that Guts was able to see. Griffith said that an equal is someone who is following their own dream. Guts said he wanted something for himself and did not want to simply follow under another's dream. Guts took those words to Charlotte and used them to think more about what he wants. He came to the conclusion that he didn't want to stay. I keep thinking that Guts left solely for himself and that the conversation with Charlotte only helped him think more of what he wants to do in life (not follow Griffith around) but I still do not understand what role/impact of Griffith's words had on Guts.
 
Huh.

I always took it that it was explicitly FOR Griffith that Guts decided to leave. Guts had, by this point, become aware that he wanted to be Griffith's friend and equal rather than just his subordinate. For this to occur, that meant that he had to go out and make something of himself other than being just Griffith's lackey.

I suppose your interpretation is equally valid, but I find it more tragic that Griffith utterly missed Guts was leaving him because of his agape for him.
 
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vanheat

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Yeah but after he leaves he doesn't even mention Griffith in terms of desiring to be an equal or friend. Guts was already his friend or at least an emotional friend or a slight crutch. Afterwards he does a lot of thinking of what he is doing, why he is living, and what for. He never tries to attain anything other than to consolidate himself. He seems to have already matured to a level that he was living his own life and Griffith was a past friend. A charismatic human being that played a role in Guts development but as Guts said in vol. 7 "maybe I'm just stopping by to warm myself..."

I would find it more tragic too but agape seems overly strong for Griffith's feelings of Guts. It seems to me that Griffith was spread thin and was relying on Guts in a way he shouldn't of. Guts leaving should not of affected Griffith so much unless Griffith was already at that point as Casca said. Not saying that Guts didn't mean a lot to him but Griffith handled it poorly. From reading the books I never got the sense that their relationship was composed of any agape feelings. (I assume agape as in the religious altruistic love sense, not the mouth agape, surprised sense.) I hope I'm not downplaying their relationship or at least as Griffith saw it.
 

Guts intestines

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willowhugger said:
Huh.

I always took it that it was explicitly FOR Griffith that Guts decided to leave. Guts had, by this point, become aware that he wanted to be Griffith's friend and equal rather than just his subordinate. For this to occur, that meant that he had to go out and make something of himself other than being just Griffith's lackey.

I suppose your interpretation is equally valid, but I find it more tragic that Griffith utterly missed Guts was leaving him because of his agape for him.

Never thought of it that way, I always thought it was because Guts didn't like living under Griffith's shadow.
 
Vanheat said:
Yeah but after he leaves he doesn't even mention Griffith in terms of desiring to be an equal or friend. Guts was already his friend or at least an emotional friend or a slight crutch. Afterwards he does a lot of thinking of what he is doing, why he is living, and what for. He never tries to attain anything other than to consolidate himself. He seems to have already matured to a level that he was living his own life and Griffith was a past friend. A charismatic human being that played a role in Guts development but as Guts said in vol. 7 "maybe I'm just stopping by to warm myself..."

I'm not so sure about that. The very fact is that Guts is trying to live for himself, but he's also pretty directionless at this point. It may be that he's already made the choice to become the Best Swordsmen there is as his "Dream" but otherwise is just doing some thinking about his life. I don't think that Guts really would have left on his own if not for the conversation with Charlotte and Griffith that he overheard.

Vanheat said:
I would find it more tragic too but agape seems overly strong for Griffith's feelings of Guts. It seems to me that Griffith was spread thin and was relying on Guts in a way he shouldn't of. Guts leaving should not of affected Griffith so much unless Griffith was already at that point as Casca said. Not saying that Guts didn't mean a lot to him but Griffith handled it poorly. From reading the books I never got the sense that their relationship was composed of any agape feelings. (I assume agape as in the religious altruistic love sense, not the mouth agape, surprised sense.) I hope I'm not downplaying their relationship or at least as Griffith saw it.

I think it's important not to turn Griffith into a sociopath before the Eclipse. The sacrifice wouldn't have worked if he hadn't cared for the Hawks (and particularly Guts/Casca). Really, I consider those two to be Griffith's only two friends and Guts the only one that Griffith treated as more than a subordinate.

Remember, that Griffith risked his life against Zodd for Guts and that's the most altruistic you can get. It's only after losing everything, partially because of Guts, that Griffith made his horrific deal and comitted an unimaginable crime.
 
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vanheat

Guest
willowhugger said:
I don't think that Guts really would have left on his own if not for the conversation with Charlotte and Griffith that he overheard.
Definitely. Guts did say that was where he first got the idea to leave.

willowhugger said:
I think it's important not to turn Griffith into a sociopath before the Eclipse. The sacrifice wouldn't have worked if he hadn't cared for the Hawks (and particularly Guts/Casca). Really, I consider those two to be Griffith's only two friends and Guts the only one that Griffith treated as more than a subordinate.

Remember, that Griffith risked his life against Zodd for Guts and that's the most altruistic you can get. It's only after losing everything, partially because of Guts, that Griffith made his horrific deal and comitted an unimaginable crime.

Griffith is most assuredly not a sociopath and I did not mean to imply that if I did.

Everything about Griffith seems right to me. He seems very human and he doesn't have any evil secrets or hidden desires or unsettling traits. His appearance is a little godly along with his abilities in terms of pre-eclipse. When I first experienced berserk (the anime) I did not pay much attention to Griffith and thought he was just another brilliant commander character with a slight sense of gayness. But I now know much better not to mention I'm older.
 
To be fair, Vanheat, I think the gayness issue is actually subtext rather than something you're imagining. Just as easily, you could argue that he's actively repulsed by it though (given his experiences with Gennon).

But I think Griffith's androgyny is a major character point. He's meant to be an Angelic Bishounen pretty boy in a land of dirt and ugly.
 
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