Does Sonia know that Griffith's army is composed of monstrous apostles?

A question that struck me all of sudden...

So does she know? And since he's leading all these monsters, one could easily deduce Griffith as the main leader/villian of the devilish minions...

If she does know, why is she still so close with Griffith?
 

Aazealh

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Yes, she knows. She's not afraid of them either, and it was even shown to be puzzling to some of them. She just seems to consider them like comrades. And because of her heightened perception of things (due to her gift), she sees Griffith as a being superior to all else, quite different from the apostles, and who she is somehow the closest to (again, because of her gift). See the little tale she tells Schierke on the pier for reference.
 
I used to believe that the reason why Sonia can be so close to Griffith was due to her innocence, completely oblivious to Griffith's true nature and intentions...

If that's the case, I think it might be probable that Sonia knows everything
 

Aazealh

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Smith said:
I used to believe that the reason why Sonia can be so close to Griffith was due to her innocence, completely oblivious to Griffith's true nature and intentions...

Well, I do think she's mistaken about him on some level. She understands his nature to some extent, but I believe that she's also oblivious to the true evilness that lurks behind his white knight facade. Her behavior certainly seems to indicate that it's the case. It's either that, or she simply doesn't understand the concepts of good and bad/has a twisted conception of things in which Griffith's actions and what they'll bring forth is acceptable.

To illustrate her peculiar state of mind, we can recall the time where she offered to bring a human corpse to an apostle in secret after he and some others had tried to eat her and Mule, in spite of the fact that Griffith and his lieutenants seem to forbid that sort of thing (Grunberd looked humorously angry at them upon hearing of their plans at the end of the scene). While depicted as a cute and mischievous display of unprejudiced camaraderie, it also shows that she has very special values.
 
Aazealh said:
It's either that, or she simply doesn't understand the concepts of good and bad/has a twisted conception of things in which Griffith's actions and what they'll bring forth is acceptable.
So it turns out that she will be on a Griffith’s side even if a bloody massacre begins and apostles will start to kill and eat people all around Midland without any kind of control.
Thou I think there are things which could possibly make Sonia to change her mind. For example if Mule will get killed by apostles.
Or maybe Schierke’s words could affect her. Sonia and Schierke are similar in many ways and both of them feel it. So if Schierke could talk to Sonia about Griffith and tell her something she didn’t know (like tell her about Flora’s death and why she was killed) then maybe Sonia will change her thoughts about Griffith.
 

Aazealh

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Flash said:
Thou I think there are things which could possibly make Sonia to change her mind.

Yeah, same here. It'd have to be something really big though, and I don't think she'd accept the truth easily. Might take time and all that.
 
Aazealh said:
Yeah, same here. It'd have to be something really big though, and I don't think she'd accept the truth easily. Might take time and all that.

The image of Sonia I have in my head would be perfectly willing to stay with Griffith no matter what he has done. He inspires loyalty (supernatural loyalty, now) in all that serve him.

I think the only thing that may make Sonia "quit" Griffith, in my mind, is to see what he will do as the Hawk of Darkness. Utterly break her of any hope for a 'good' outcome. (Via a prophecy, perhaps?)

With that said, this is somewhat baseless speculation, and she may just end up being a completely crazy beast. :carcus:
 
Nonsapient said:
The image of Sonia I have in my head would be perfectly willing to stay with Griffith no matter what he has done. He inspires loyalty (supernatural loyalty, now) in all that serve him.

I do agree with the fact Griffith inspires a tremendous amount of loyalty coupled with the fact he gave Sonia a home and took her in from an environment where she was almost certainly misunderstood and an outcast. However, its still unclear how much she knows or the extent of her powers. I belive she does know the apostles are "tamed" monsters but seriously doubt she knows the full story on Griffith as I am still skeptical of the consistency of her "gift". After giving the prophecy to Zodd about crossing blades with Guts again.."the sword that once tore your flesh".. she seems quite confused after like she missed the whole speech or went into a trance. That and how "fearless" she is most of the time(which is mentioned more the once) lead me to think she can only see a bit into the future, enough to know she will be unharmed, as we have yet to see her afraid. On the other side the few times you see her confused it looks more due to the fact her "gift" missed something and not a silly error on her part. Yes before everyone grills my reply this is heavy speculation and theories on my part. I am still looking forward to the owl and kite meeting again!!
 

Aazealh

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Nonsapient said:
The image of Sonia I have in my head would be perfectly willing to stay with Griffith no matter what he has done. He inspires loyalty (supernatural loyalty, now) in all that serve him.

Sonia doesn't follow him because he inspires supernatural loyalty in her, though. Her powers and strong personality place her above that (remember that she's already left the Hawks' camp on a whim once). She's probably the person acting the most familiarly with him, and that reflects how she feels about him in general (not to mention her crush on him). In the same way, he's particularly indulgent with her. Their relationship is very special and not that easy to figure out, so IMHO it's quite hard to predict how it will evolve depending on future major events.

Shadow67733 said:
I am still skeptical of the consistency of her "gift".

And why would that be? I don't think she seemed confused after telling Zodd his future. In fact, would you mind explaining exactly when in the story she's looked confused to you and why? I believe she's more happy-go-lucky than anything else, and so far her gift has proven itself to be extremely accurate and reliable. I don't think there's any basis to doubt its consistency at this point, if only because we haven't seen her use it enough times for that yet.
 
Aazealh said:
She's probably the person acting the most familiarly with him, and that reflects how she feels about him in general (not to mention her crush on him).

Somehow it reminds me of Schierke having a crush on Guts, guess they were similar scenarios?
 

Aazealh

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Smith said:
Somehow it reminds me of Schierke having a crush on Guts, guess they were similar scenarios?

Yeah, they both have a crush on an older man that isn't romantically interested in them. I see you're quite the observer. However, past that their personalities and experiences in life are completely dissimilar.
 
Aazealh said:
And why would that be? I don't think she seemed confused after telling Zodd his future. In fact, would you mind explaining exactly when in the story she's looked confused to you and why? I believe she's more happy-go-lucky than anything else, and so far her gift has proven itself to be extremely accurate and reliable. I don't think there's any basis to doubt its consistency at this point, if only because we haven't seen her use it enough times for that yet.

After she talks to Zodd and makes her prophecies he says something along the lines of "so this is what prophecies are like" as she looks around and says "who knows?". Now if u translate it different thats cool and I'd be happy to hear a better meaning from it although now I can see how you interpret it is convincing as well. Sadly since darkhorse is so slow with the books, which I do buy(how can u not want to own this series?) I have to depend on scanlations for the newer stuff and I know the translations are iffy sometimes. Sadly my japanese is not up to par so more then i'd like gets lost there.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Shadow67733 said:
After she talks to Zodd and makes her prophecies he says something along the lines of "so this is what prophecies are like" as she looks around and says "who knows?".

mahlernut said:
Zodd:
Meaning what?

Sonja:
Who knows?

Zodd:
…So this is one of your predictions?

I think this is a more accurate translation of that exchange

Shadow67733 said:
Sadly since darkhorse is so slow with the books, which I do buy(how can u not want to own this series?) I have to depend on scanlations for the newer stuff and I know the translations are iffy sometimes. Sadly my japanese is not up to par so more then i'd like gets lost there.

There's a translation section on this forum :serpico:
 

Aazealh

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Shadow67733 said:
After she talks to Zodd and makes her prophecies he says something along the lines of "so this is what prophecies are like" as she looks around and says "who knows?".

That's not exactly how it went down, and if you want to check it out, just head over to the translation section. She's not being confused at all here, she's just answering Zodd's questions in an enigmatic way (as she often does).
 
Wow, great thanks for the info. Like I said, quite a bit does get lost in translation for me and since I like to know what is going on in depth I appreciate the help. I do think many people are confused by subtle differences in translations. Of course thats not to excuse lack of reading comprehension on the last interesting post I read, ya know the one about Serpico and Farnese being ill conceived, lol. For god sakes it not only fills a book but Miura tells you exactly why they are how they are!! Anyhow thanks for the help.
 

Billybob

Succumb to the will of the beast
After Griffith gets his own country, I'm interested in seeing what he does with it, and how Sonia and Mule will react to that. Even after he gets his wish and they see the true extent of his demonic capabilities, will that be enough to smear the beautiful godlike image they have of him now? I somewhat hope it is enough to get them to leave, but even if they want to, Griffith isn't the type to let someone with power leave his service willingly. But these are just thoughts, in the end Miura will decide how all the shit goes down.
 

JetBlack

CASULTY FAN
Sonia knows and... She doesn't care, that's it! Because she looks at Griffith and sees him so high, she feels herself so close to him because she thinks she can fly near him... And sees what he sees.

She is blinded by his highness and she won't or isn't able to see the evil... Or maybe better she doesn't care: she is fascinated by Griffith and the evil is nothing for her because he is over everything else. :daiba:
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Aazealh said:
she simply doesn't understand the concepts of good and bad/has a twisted conception of things

Neitschze is the root of all things Berserk... (not sure if that already has its own thread)

Simply put, since Griffith has transcended humanity -- and if Sonia can recognize that with her gifts -- she could also recognize him, as well as the other apostles, as being beyond the limitations of human morality.
 

Aazealh

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einherjar said:
Neitschze is the root of all things Berserk... (not sure if that already has its own thread)

Not really, no. Some concepts do come directly from Nietzschean philosophy, but it's not "the root of all things Berserk". Many philosophies or schools of thought can be found in Berserk if one wants to find them, so it'd be pretty reductive to limit it to Nietzsche (not to mention that Miura has his own take on things most of the time). And as a matter of fact it has indeed been discussed before.

einherjar said:
Simply put, since Griffith has transcended humanity -- and if Sonia can recognize that with her gifts -- she could also recognize him, as well as the other apostles, as being beyond the limitations of human morality.

I don't think that's really how she looks at it, although it's true their different nature surely plays a part in her behavior. She has a very special conception of many things in the first place, look at her little story about ducks for example. It doesn't exactly depict her as highly valuing human life. Like I said in the post you quoted, to me the question should be more about what her idea of morality is in the first place. Don't forget that she considers herself the closest person to Griffith in terms of spiritual "kinship", for lack of a better word (as she believes -apparently for good reason- that there is a certain alikeness between them). Anyway, by "the other apostles", are you implying that Griffith is an apostle? Because he's a different kind of being entirely.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Aazealh said:
Not really, no. Some concepts do come directly from Nietzschean philosophy, but it's not "the root of all things Berserk".

Yes, that was an irresponsible simplification on my part. I did attempt to search for "Nietzsche" related threads after my post, but I couldn't find any recent ones other than in the general discussion (non Berserk) boards.

I guess my point in bringing it up was that through the sacrifice, Beherit users demonstrate the ability to bend their morality to suit their will. And as a consequence of doing so, they are freed from their human condition...

Aazealh said:
She has a very special conception of many things in the first place, look at her little story about ducks for example. It doesn't exactly depict her as highly valuing human life.

I don't recall the duck story, where is that?

Aazealh said:
Anyway, by "the other apostles", are you implying that Griffith is an apostle? Because he's a different kind of being entirely.

That wasn't intended... I meant to group all who had used Beherit, and made a sacrifice.

It was late at night, dammit...
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
einherjar said:
Yes, that was an irresponsible simplification on my part. I did attempt to search for "Nietzsche" related threads after my post, but I couldn't find any recent ones other than in the general discussion (non Berserk) boards.

Well I didn't say there were recent threads! :void:

einherjar said:
I guess my point in bringing it up was that through the sacrifice, Beherit users demonstrate the ability to bend their morality to suit their will. And as a consequence of doing so, they are freed from their human condition...

That's matter for a true debate here! Are apostles truly not human, or are they on the contrary disproportionately driven by some very human emotions and desires? Fear, pain and despair lead them to selfishly sacrifice what is dearest to them, so that they become apostles, and then they are governed by their blood thirst, gluttony, lust, sloth... It all sounds very human. Amoral and "evil", sure, but human nonetheless (and don't we have plenty of real life examples of completely amoral people?). In Berserk this is consistent with what we're shown of the world: the Vortex of Souls, the Idea of Evil, the God Hand, and the apostles all revolve around mankind. By opposition, we can find spiritual beings who are completely alien to those concepts and who genuinely transcend them (e.g. elementals). The apostles, despite their transmutation, remain inescapably bound to humanity. So I guess it depends on what we define "human" as in the context. :idea:

einherjar said:
I don't recall the duck story, where is that?

When Sonia meets Schierke at the pier in Vritannis. It's at the end of volume 28, in episode 246.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Aazealh said:
Well I didn't say there were recent threads! :void:

Indeed.

Aazealh said:
That's matter for a true debate here! Are apostles truly not human, or are they on the contrary disproportionately driven by some very human emotions and desires? Fear, pain and despair lead them to selfishly sacrifice what is dearest to them, so that they become apostles, and then they are governed by their blood thirst, gluttony, lust, sloth... It all sounds very human. Amoral and "evil", sure, but human nonetheless (and don't we have plenty of real life examples of completely amoral people?). In Berserk this is consistent with what we're shown of the world: the Vortex of Souls, the Idea of Evil, the God Hand, and the apostles all revolve around mankind. By opposition, we can find spiritual beings who are completely alien to those concepts and who genuinely transcend them (e.g. elementals). The apostles, despite their transmutation, remain inescapably bound to humanity. So I guess it depends on what we define "human" as in the context. :idea:

Hmmm... I never thought of the apostles in that way before, but it makes perfect sense. A human "soul" transposed into an inhuman body, and stripped of what we would call a conscience... Which philosopher posited that mankind was inherently evil?
And that would also serve to explain the behaviors of the named apostles vs. the hordes of weaker ones... The capacity for reason is not dependant on morality... Perhaps the intelligence of an apostle remains unchanged through the transformation? I'll never look at apostles the same way again!

Aazealh said:
When Sonia meets Schierke at the pier in Vritannis. It's at the end of volume 28, in episode 246.

Ahhh, I forgot about the ducks in that example... I only remembered the owl & kite.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
einherjar said:
Which philosopher posited that mankind was inherently evil?

Well that's a relatively common concept actually. For example, in the Christian faith men are born in sin, and must struggle all their lives to atone for it in order to be redeemed and become pure and good.

einherjar said:
And that would also serve to explain the behaviors of the named apostles vs. the hordes of weaker ones... The capacity for reason is not dependant on morality... Perhaps the intelligence of an apostle remains unchanged through the transformation?

I take that for granted, yes. However I'd go even farther and postulate that their own worth as individuals (force of will, skills, courage, personality traits, etc.) might also be carried over to their new apostle selves. Therefore, an unremarkable man will become an unremarkable apostle, while a great man will become a great apostle. Like humans, they come in all varieties, and are defined as much as individuals than they are as a group.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Aazealh said:
Well that's a relatively common concept actually. For example, in the Christian faith men are born in sin, and must struggle all their lives to atone for it in order to be redeemed and become pure and good.

I was thinking of something more specific - the rebuttal of the Utilitarianism "greater good" argument.

Aazealh said:
I take that for granted, yes. However I'd go even farther and postulate that their own worth as individuals (force of will, skills, courage, personality traits, etc.) might also be carried over to their new apostle selves. Therefore, an unremarkable man will become an unremarkable apostle, while a great man will become a great apostle.

So where does that place our favorite apostles in a "power ranking?" Grunbeld > Zodd? What does this say about the Count vs. Rosine?
And what kind of apostle would Guts make?!?! j/k
 
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