Video games and piracy

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
So, as you guys might or might not know, the Iron Lore studio that developed Titan Quest a while back closed its doors recently.

Michael Fitch from THQ posted about it on the Quarter to Three forums, and I found it pretty interesting. It's nothing really new, but I think it's another striking example that confirms the many problems that exist with PC gaming nowadays. It's not just limited to piracy either, though that's the main part of his argument, and the rest rings true as well.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=1264732&postcount=1
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
That's a shame, I actually purchased Titan Quest I thought it was a great game. Sorry to hear/see them close down. :judo:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
That's really frustrating shit. This game didn't look bad either.

I guess I'm one of the few in actuality who has pirated a few games but will nearly always buy it once I get into it, or if its something I've been greatly anticipating. I'll never understand people who rave about how awesome a game is but don't support it with their wallets. And we all have that friend.

That being said, during the piracy portion of that post, the guy says the game intentionally crashed for people who didnt pass a security code check. Why not dump them to desktop with a message stating: "Buy the full game please, dipshits." That would have cleared up the distinction between a hardware/software failure and a direct result of them stealing the game.

So, I guess the moral of the story is, don't make a PC game unless you have millions and millions in the bank to fund your dream project and chew through will you get raped by the lack of sales? Man, what a downer... What makes this all worse is that now I WANT to play Titan Quest. :judo:

PS: You know what's great about buying a game? You have the legitimate option of complaining about it on their forums =). Like right now, WoW is down on their weekly server maintenance. Sure, it's planned down-time, but it's MY RIGHT AS A PAYING CUSTOMER to complain about my inability to access my product! Power to the people! :ganishka:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
I played the demo for Titan's Quest and it just didn't do it for me, despite being such a big fan of Diablo. It just didn't have the same artistic flare that Blizzard had for Diablo. Just a mediocre clone set in Greek myth. I've been lucky enough as of late and haven't pirated anything in a long, long time. I don't even remember the last game I pirated, as doing so I've always seen as a hassle (not to mention I would feel more guilty for doing so than watching a movie).

I recognize how big of a problem piracy is to PC gaming, but a lot of this guy's post just reads as sour grapes to me. Wasn't the main reason given by Iron Lore for closing down was they couldn't secure funding from a publisher for the next project? I can see how one could argue that piracy prevented them from being successful enough to self-publish but any publisher would have to be out of their minds not to recognize a talented developer.

He then goes on to blame hardware. Well, yea, PC has always been more of an open platform. Hardware issues can occur but frankly this sort of thing has gotten way better over the years, imo. I definitely prefer the more open platform over a standardized closed box when it comes to PC gaming. I think it's the flexibility of the hardware that has put PC gaming at the bleeding edge of new tech. There are many successful developers that have produced content that would work on a VERY wide selection of hardware, so I don't think blaming the nature of the beast is fair after the fact.

He then blames the audience and A reviewer. This is where it kind of gets silly. In Titan's Quest's case, it was generally regarded as a GOOD game. A total Diablo rip-off, but a good one. So Fitch takes umbrage at a review that didn't adjust it's score 'cause the reviewer was wrong about one mechanic? What is the ability to portal into town worth in a review score? 1 point? .5? It's subjective to begin with and far too much weight is given to the enthusiast press.
I don't know where to begin to tackle the "consumers are too stupid" argument. I guess I can see the frustration in having to deal with the more casual players in a game developed for the hardcore, not everyone knows about updating drivers, etc. But this goes back to my point about hardware. It's really the nature of the beast. That's the price you pay when you develop something 5 years ahead of the consoles, not everyone's system's gonna be able to handle your shit. PC gamers that were targeted by games like Crysis and (when it came out) Titan's Quest are the hardest of the hardcore.

Anyways I'm starting to ramble so I'll wrap it up. Developing something for the PC can be difficult, I realize, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're doomed to failure. Games by Valve, Blizzard, and even THQ have sold _very_ well on PC, and they aren't exceptions to the rule. The console market has exploded in recent years. PC developers look at the millions sold on consoles and they wonder why that doesn't translate to PC sales, but frankly the PC hardcore market hasn't expanded to the same degree. The developers see the same level of sales that they've always had, compare it to record sales like "Halo 3 and shout to the world "OMG PC GAMING IS DEAD! PIRACY! REVIEWS! HARDWARE!"
As far as Iron Lore is concerned I find it far more likely some internal conflict or hurdle was the culprit for the studio shutting down than the partial failure of one of their games.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Walter said:
I guess I'm one of the few in actuality who has pirated a few games but will nearly always buy it once I get into it, or if its something I've been greatly anticipating. I'll never understand people who rave about how awesome a game is but don't support it with their wallets. And we all have that friend.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the proportion is about the same with people that read scans and don't buy the books afterwards. Not to mention CDs, but that's a topic on its own.

Walter said:
That being said, during the piracy portion of that post, the guy says the game intentionally crashed for people who didnt pass a security code check. Why not dump them to desktop with a message stating: "Buy the full game please, dipshits." That would have cleared up the distinction between a hardware/software failure and a direct result of them stealing the game.

Good remark, and it was pointed out to the guy in the original thread. I think the problem is that piracy is rampant in the first place, though. People had the pirated game way before it was even available in retail, and the protections used against piracy are meant to be as invisible as possible so that pirated versions are released while buggy and very unstable. Giving away a message would basically tell the crackers when to block the protection. And of course that also shows how flawed copy protection is, and how inefficient it can be against piracy. Since it's often middleware from third parties that's used in games, I'm not even sure the developers have a choice to display a specific message or anything.

Walter said:
PS: You know what's great about buying a game? You have the legitimate option of complaining about it on their forums =). Like right now, WoW is down on their weekly server maintenance. Sure, it's planned down-time, but it's MY RIGHT AS A PAYING CUSTOMER to complain about my inability to access my product! Power to the people! :ganishka:

MMORPGs are really special though. I mean, people complain whatever happens, even when the developers do what they asked the week before. :ganishka:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
He then goes on to blame hardware. Well, yea, PC has always been more of an open platform. Hardware issues can occur but frankly this sort of thing has gotten way better over the years, imo. I definitely prefer the more open platform over a standardized closed box when it comes to PC gaming. I think it's the flexibility of the hardware that has put PC gaming at the bleeding edge of new tech. There are many successful developers that have produced content that would work on a VERY wide selection of hardware, so I don't think blaming the nature of the beast is fair after the fact.
I don't see how you can say things have gotten better. The hardware industry has definitely gotten more nasty as manufacturers have diversified into shitty, unprofessional markets. Just browse Pricewatch.com for a few minutes and try to nail down exactly which vendor sells reliable hardware. I've gotten my fair share of unworking pieces of hardware over the years THANKS to the nature of this evil, penny-pinching beast (though I really can't blame anyone but myself for buying a $7 nonworking USB 2.0 PCI card).

I can remember the golden age of PC gaming hardware in the late 90s when you only had 2-3 choices for video cards, and they all worked - great - as long as you had the MHz (not GHz) to back it up. These days, those 2-3 choices have gone to 2,000,000-3,000,000, all with their own quirks and nuances developers have to nail down.

I think Fitch has a great point between the lines here: smaller developers now have to spend many, many more hours of labor debugging a HD-HK-SaveRiteGeForce9820XP integrated video chipset that produces a strange blue wave effect on the monitor when two spells are cast at once, when they COULD be spending that time actually building a game.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Well I was coming from my own personal point of view on that statement. Perhaps I've just been lucky but I've had far fewer compatibility problems since the 90's. My point was that the huge variety of hardware I've always taken as more of a pro than a con, and Mr. Fitch's complaint about it after making a conscious decision to cater to a segmented part of that market is rather pointless.

Those technical challenges are present whether or not your developing for console or PC, and while you can argue that PC development can be harder in compatibility testing it does have some benefits.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
I played the demo for Titan's Quest and it just didn't do it for me, despite being such a big fan of Diablo. It just didn't have the same artistic flare that Blizzard had for Diablo. Just a mediocre clone set in Greek myth.

I think you're a bit harsh here, I wouldn't call the game mediocre. Like you said yourself later on, the general consensus was good when it came out. I really don't want to start a debate with you here, but I feel some parts of what you said need to be relativized. :serpico:

CnC said:
I recognize how big of a problem piracy is to PC gaming, but a lot of this guy's post just reads as sour grapes to me.

It's probable that he's angry to some extent, but keep in mind he wasn't part of Iron Lore, he's from THQ, the publisher.

CnC said:
He then goes on to blame hardware. Well, yea, PC has always been more of an open platform. Hardware issues can occur but frankly this sort of thing has gotten way better over the years, imo. I definitely prefer the more open platform over a standardized closed box when it comes to PC gaming. I think it's the flexibility of the hardware that has put PC gaming at the bleeding edge of new tech.

I don't know about that, man. I remember that back in the day, I had no problem running any game on practically any computer. I'm talking about pre-video cards times here. PCs were also far more of a bleeding edge system back then, nowadays PC games often run about as well on consoles. You've actually bought games on consoles instead of getting the PC version yourself, I think it shows that it's not nearly as much "bleeding edge" as it used to be. Not to mention that it costs quite a lot to constantly stay at that level. It's gotten more diverse AND more expensive, and hardware doesn't last as long as before.

CnC said:
Games by Valve, Blizzard, and even THQ have sold _very_ well on PC, and they aren't exceptions to the rule.

I don't know about THQ, though I imagine the guy knows better than us about it, but concerning Blizzard and Valve, I would definitely say that they're exceptions. Valve is now all-powerful thanks to Steam, and what company can rival Blizzard at what it does?

CnC said:
The console market has exploded in recent years. PC developers look at the millions sold on consoles and they wonder why that doesn't translate to PC sales, but frankly the PC hardcore market hasn't expanded to the same degree.

The video game industry has been growing for many years, and PC gaming has also been stagnating, then regressing for many years. Saying PC gaming is dead really isn't new, I've been hearing it for at least 10 years. It's not just a matter of market expansion: many PC games are very popular, but that doesn't translate into sales. There's a reason many studios that diss(ed) consoles are now releasing their games simultaneously on consoles and PC. There's a reason many developers, like Funcom, are abandoning conventional games to focus on MMOGs. PC gaming is slowly decaying, and considering my own experience, I do think the reasons that guy gave are pertinent. Of course there are other factors (and the guy was clearly venting and blaming everything but the ones being the game), and of course exceptional games will always sell, but I think that even the greatest titles suffer from these problems to some extent.

CnC said:
As far as Iron Lore is concerned I find it far more likely some internal conflict or hurdle was the culprit for the studio shutting down than the partial failure of one of their games.

Well, Titan Quest and its add-on were their only games.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
I think you're a bit harsh here, I wouldn't call the game mediocre. Like you said yourself later on, the general consensus was good when it came out. I really don't want to start a debate with you here, but I feel some parts of what you said need to be relativized. :serpico:

no, no need for debate here. As I said it just really didn't do it for me. While I hear it was good I probably would have preferred to play Diablo 2 again rather buy a visual update.

Aazealh said:
It's probable that he's angry to some extent, but keep in mind he wasn't part of Iron Lore, he's from THQ, the publisher.

Ah. Well this sort of frustration has been aired before (just recently again by Cliffy B at GDC). I'm just saying I don't think the reasons cited in the post don't really cover the issue. Rather than blame the downsides to the platform that have always been there, I would think it makes better sense to blame the increasing cost of making games versus a non-increasing market to consume those games.

Aazealh said:
I don't know about that, man. I remember that back in the day, I had no problem running any game on practically any computer. I'm talking about pre-video cards times here. PCs were also far more of a bleeding edge system back then, nowadays PC games often run about as well on consoles. You've actually bought games on consoles instead of getting the PC version yourself, I think it shows that it's not nearly as much "bleeding edge" as it used to be. Not to mention that it costs quite a lot to constantly stay at that level. It's gotten more diverse AND more expensive, and hardware doesn't last as long as before.

More diverse, maybe. But more expensive? Dunno. I remember walking into a circuit city circa 1996 and seeing a Compaq with 256 megs of memory and god knows what kind of processor for 3-4 thousand dollars. To find any sort of deal you had to build the thing yourself. The Dell's and Gateways of the world did a lot for making base-line computers cheaper, while the enthusiast builder has roughly had to pay the same price.
But again, as far as compatibility goes, I only speak for my own experience.

Aazealh said:
I don't know about THQ, though I imagine the guy knows better than us about it, but concerning Blizzard and Valve, I would definitely say that they're exceptions. Valve is now all-powerful thanks to Steam, and what company can rival Blizzard at what it does?

The Blizzards and Valves of the world had to start somewhere, and part (probably a large part) of thier success came from making very smart decisions in regards to their target platform. They both made games that can run on a very wide variety of machines, and factored in that they would have to put in the time to make sure the game met their expectations. Titans Quest, for reasons probably stemming that they were being published by a publicly traded company probably cut some corners to meet a deadline imposed by a financial quarter. At the time of release, it was seen as a system hog requiring quite a bit of graphical power to run smoothly. These things just have to hurt its sales as well as the omnipresent threat of piracy.

Aazealh said:
The video game industry has been growing for many years, and PC gaming has also been stagnating, then regressing for many years. Saying PC gaming is dead really isn't new, I've been hearing it for at least 10 years. It's not just a matter of market expansion: many PC games are very popular, but that doesn't translate into sales. There's a reason many studios that diss(ed) consoles are now releasing their games simultaneously on consoles and PC. There's a reason many developers, like Funcom, are abandoning conventional games to focus on MMOGs. PC gaming is slowly decaying, and considering my own experience, I do think the reasons that guy gave are pertinent. Of course there are other factors, and of course exceptional games will always sell, but I think that even the greatest titles suffer from these problems to some extent.

I agree. I'm just saying the reasons cited by Mr. Fitch aren't new, nor can he really pointing to them being ever increasing problems. Hardware problems and piracy have been constant downsides to the platform since day one. Many other factors are making PC game development look like a poor proposition, but I just don't think the problems outlined are the real source of aggravation.

As an aside, I think the rush everyone seems to be making to produce the next big MMORPG is just going to end up blowing up in their faces.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
Rather than blame the downsides to the platform that have always been there, I would think it makes better sense to blame the increasing cost of making games versus a non-increasing market to consume those games.

Well, there's also the fact that piracy on the Internet is so easy and prevalent that it's harder and harder for them to make a profit.

CnC said:
More diverse, maybe. But more expensive? Dunno. I remember walking into a circuit city circa 1996 and seeing a Compaq with 256 megs of memory and god knows what kind of processor for 3-4 thousand dollars. To find any sort of deal you had to build the thing yourself. The Dell's and Gateways of the world did a lot for making base-line computers cheaper, while the enthusiast builder has roughly had to pay the same price.

Well, I know I remember a time when graphics cards didn't cost $500, and I could build myself a top notch computer for $1500. It's probably up to each person's experience, but save for laptops, I'd say the price of components and desktop computers went up.

CnC said:
The Blizzards and Valves of the world had to start somewhere, and part (probably a large part) of thier success came from making very smart decisions in regards to their target platform.

Of course, but my point was that for one such company, you have a hundred failures if not more (and not always deserved failures). I think we can all agree that they're exceptional in many ways.

CnC said:
I agree. I'm just saying the reasons cited by Mr. Fitch aren't new, nor can he really pointing to them being ever increasing problems. Hardware problems and piracy have been constant downsides to the platform since day one.

Indeed it's nothing new, and I said in the first post that it just seemed interesting as yet another example of these things. However, I do disagree that those problems have been there since day one in the same proportions. Piracy really exploded with Internet and CD burners, and hardware problems are bigger now that games, Operating Systems, and the hardware itself become more complicated, subtler, etc.

CnC said:
As an aside, I think the rush everyone seems to be making to produce the next big MMORPG is just going to end up blowing up in their faces.

Oh I definitely agree with that. It's not new either, people didn't wait for WoW to try to cash in on that genre, and the horrible failures didn't wait to happen. As more companies are lured by the potential jackpot they could win, more aborted and stillborn projects are sure to come our way. I still remember hearing about the marvel that Shadowbane would be as EverQuest was about to get its first expansion. 3 years later in came out in the general indifference (catastrophic launch), and now it's a freeware.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
Well, there's also the fact that piracy on the Internet is so easy and prevalent that it's harder and harder for them to make a profit.

True. The days of copying your friends 3.5" floppy are at an end and the age of the torrent has made all of this very easy. However they've been citing piracy as a major reason for poor sales for as long as I can remember:
DON'T COPY THAT FLOPPY!!

Aazealh said:
Well, I know I remember a time when graphics cards didn't cost $500, and I could build myself a top notch computer for $1500. It's probably up to each person's experience, but save for laptops, I'd say the price of components and desktop computers went up.

I built a computer a few years ago that was pretty top notch for 1400$. And I upgraded it a month ago to be able to play games like Crysis at 1900*1200 at around 35-50fps for like 900$. I suppose it depends on what you consider "top notch", but one can easily go overboard in buying components to squeeze out an extra 10fps (not really worth it imo).

Aazealh said:
Of course, but my point was that for one such company, you have a hundred failures if not more (and not always deserved failures). I think we can all agree that they're exceptional in many ways.

True enough. You're not going to get a Blizzard or Valve-level game every time, but let's face it: Titans Quest is a very decent, but very demanding, copy of a Blizzard game. At a certain point I'm not as sympathetic that they're disappointed by it not being a huge success. Was the expansion pack a desperate attempt at boosting sales or did they actually see a market for them? Anyways this is assuming that it was poor sales that caused them to close. I still feel there was something else going on.

Aazealh said:
and hardware problems are bigger now that games, Operating Systems, and the hardware itself become more complicated, subtler, etc.

Dunno. I still have nightmares about compatibility problems in Win 3.1 and Win95. I've generally had a much smoother experience with XP (and even Vista). Perhaps developing for them is harder but I'm not feeling it in the result.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
True. The days of copying your friends 3.5" floppy are at an end and the age of the torrent has made all of this very easy. However they've been citing piracy as a major reason for poor sales for as long as I can remember:
DON'T COPY THAT FLOPPY!!

Hehe yeah, but it's still more of a problem now than then. :guts:

CnC said:
I built a computer a few years ago that was pretty top notch for 1400$. And I upgraded it a month ago to be able to play games like Crysis at 1900*1200 at around 35-50fps for like 900$. I suppose it depends on what you consider "top notch", but one can easily go overboard in buying components to squeeze out an extra 10fps (not really worth it imo).

Sure, it depends on what you consider top-notch. I'm sure Smith's dream rig doesn't cost $1400. :ganishka:

CnC said:
True enough. You're not going to get a Blizzard or Valve-level game every time, but let's face it: Titans Quest is a very decent, but very demanding, copy of a Blizzard game. At a certain point I'm not as sympathetic that they're disappointed by it not being a huge success. Was the expansion pack a desperate attempt at boosting sales or did they actually see a market for them? Anyways this is assuming that it was poor sales that caused them to close. I still feel there was something else going on.

It's not just about Titan Quest though, there are many games/companies in the same position. And apparently it did sell well and was enough of a success, but that didn't suffice to keep funding more projects. Beyond that example, I'm sure there are many companies that are limited by the lack of revenue from their games, even when they don't sink.

CnC said:
Dunno. I still have nightmares about compatibility problems in Win 3.1 and Win95. I've generally had a much smoother experience with XP (and even Vista). Perhaps developing for them is harder but I'm not feeling it in the result.

Well, CDs are a better medium than floppies, I'll give you that. Nothing worse than an error when you've reached the last of the 14 needed to install the game. :puck:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
I'm sure Smith's dream rig doesn't cost $1400. :ganishka:

Well, Smith's concept of reality can be the subject of another thread entirely :guts:

Aazealh said:
It's not just about Titan Quest though, there are many games/companies in the same position. And apparently it did sell well and was enough of a success, but that didn't suffice to keep funding more projects. Beyond that example, I'm sure there are many companies that are limited by the lack of revenue from their games, even when they don't sink.

Thats why I think there's something else at fault here. Michael Fitch's post could just be entirely unrelated.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
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CnC said:
Well, Smith's concept of reality can be the subject of another thread entirely :guts:

ppl... liek u... r a desease...

CnC said:
Thats why I think there's something else at fault here. Michael Fitch's post could just be entirely unrelated.

Well, I don't know. I mean, it could, but since he apparently knew the guys pretty well and all, I'm going to take his word for it until another more reliable source comes forward. In the end I think his arguments stand anyway, beyond this particular case and in regard to the whole industry. The newly created PC Gaming Alliance is in my opinion a good indicator that there's a real concern on the developers/publishers/etc. side about these problems, and that they'll have to be solved sooner or later. In the meantime I'll be playing roguelikes (that Diablo ripped off! :void:).
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
Well, I don't know. I mean, it could, but since he apparently knew the guys pretty well and all, I'm going to take his word for it until another more reliable source comes forward. In the end I think his arguments stand anyway, beyond this particular case and in regard to the whole industry.

And I think he's venting on a larger frustration that may not much to do with this particular case. Who knows, indeed.

Aazealh said:
The newly created PC Gaming Alliance is in my opinion a good indicator that there's a real concern on the developers/publishers/etc. side about these problems, and that they'll have to be solved sooner or later. In the meantime I'll be playing roguelikes (that Diablo ripped off! :void:).

Yea I read about that. Don't know what that's supposed to do, honestly, but we'll have to see. In the meantime I'll play Diablo-on-crack (aka WoW) as much as possible while the PC is still around (fingers crossed).
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
Yea I read about that. Don't know what that's supposed to do, honestly, but we'll have to see. In the meantime I'll play Diablo-on-crack (aka WoW) as much as possible while the PC is still around (fingers crossed).

WoW is really more of an easier and more user-friendly EverQuest. ;)
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Aazealh said:
WoW is really more of an easier and more user-friendly EverQuest. ;)
We just had to go there didnt we. :puck:

I agree though it is. My friends and I picked the habit back up but im strictly just PvP and waiting for Conan.

Any way's it's a dog eat dog world when it comes to these things at time so thats probably some of the reason why some of these smalelr ones are being absorbed by the big ones. Activision/Blizzard is a good point out. Regardless I hope we don't lose any potentially great games to this. :judo:
 

Aazealh

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SaiyajinNoOuji-Trading Cards said:
We just had to go there didnt we. :puck:

Well it's not like they ever tried to hide it or anything, and I sure don't blame them for it. They looked at what worked, and ameliorated it in various ways. EQ itself was merely a MUD with a GUI when it came out.

SaiyajinNoOuji-Trading Cards said:
I agree though it is. My friends and I picked the habit back up but im strictly just PvP and waiting for Conan.

You're a good man. :guts:
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Aazealh said:
Crytek is apparently abandoning PC exclusivities because of the piracy surrounding their games.

http://www.pcplay.hr/modules.php?r=23
I don't think it will really help anything. With the next gen machines being more and more suited not just for games but for media centers, it's just creating, in my opinion, more opportunities for people to hack it and make it so that it can use pirated games.

It happened with the Xbox and there has been some success with the Wii.
 

Aazealh

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SaiyajinNoOuji-Trading Cards said:
I don't think it will really help anything. With the next gen machines being more and more suited not just for games but for media centers, it's just creating, in my opinion, more opportunities for people to hack it and make it so that it can use pirated games.

Yeah, I agree that it won't solve the real problem, but it's true that less people tend to use pirated copies on consoles in general. But as you say, as time passes by more and more people get to do it so in the end it might not make a lot of difference 5 years from now.
 

Serpico

Farnese is the bomb diggity
Walter said:
That being said, during the piracy portion of that post, the guy says the game intentionally crashed for people who didnt pass a security code check. Why not dump them to desktop with a message stating: "Buy the full game please, dipshits." That would have cleared up the distinction between a hardware/software failure and a direct result of them stealing the game.

You have a great point here Walter for a few reasons. How frusterating would it be if a legitimate customer happened to have a non-piracy related crash at one of these points in the game. Not only would they be ignored by customer support, and probably met with cynicism as an assumed pirate, but the problem would never be fixed.

He talks about piracy being inevitable and how much better it would be if just 1-10% of pirates would actually go buy it. WHY?? would they go buy it when its crashing for unknown reasons and unplayable? If they had not done that then certainly SOME of the pirates would have bought the game.

On top of this, they bog down the code and increase the chance of bugs by writing in the security checks and intentional crashes. Another fact that affects even the paying customer.

Sounds to me like they were suffering sour grapes even before they started. If this guy has so many problems with PC titles he should do something else. No one had a gun to his head. Anyone who publicly refers to their customers as being stupid, before, or after their failure deserved to fail. Anyone who does not expect to have customers raise hardware issues with a PC game is an idiot. If running a Diablo clone on any modern PC is that dependant on it being defragged then the issue is with the game. That was an awful lot of whining for a game he says they didn't lose any money on.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Serpico said:
You have a great point here Walter for a few reasons. How frusterating would it be if a legitimate customer happened to have a non-piracy related crash at one of these points in the game. Not only would they be ignored by customer support, and probably met with cynicism as an assumed pirate, but the problem would never be fixed.

Well, since those were triggered bugs, it turns out no legitimate copy crashed because of it. Anyway, as long as you have a valid CD Key I don't think customer support would ignore you. It seems to me that you're speculating a tad much here.

Serpico said:
If they had not done that then certainly SOME of the pirates would have bought the game.

How is that certain at all? I mean I understand your logic here, but it's something that's been proven over time to simply be untrue. There's only a ridiculously small portion of people that test games illegally before buying them, something that likely numbers under 1%.

Serpico said:
Sounds to me like they were suffering sour grapes even before they started. If this guy has so many problems with PC titles he should do something else. No one had a gun to his head.

But the point you're missing is that a lot of companies are stopping PC exclusivities when they don't stop developing on PC altogether. The PC market is going to slowly die if this continues.
 

Serpico

Farnese is the bomb diggity
Aazealh said:
Well, since those were triggered bugs, it turns out no legitimate copy crashed because of it. Anyway, as long as you have a valid CD Key I don't think customer support would ignore you. It seems to me that you're speculating a tad much here.

If you mean no legitimate copy crashed due to the intentional bug that is possible Aaz. The problem is that many bugs can cause the game to crash at any point and if it cooincidentally crashes there it complicates things. You can take my word on this or not, I've listened to 4 hours of programming lectures a week for the last year and written dozens myself, but it is actually more likely for legitimate users to crash specifically at that point. Why? Because at that point they run the copy protection function that very likely has bugs all of its own for different systems and configurations. My point is that they really confuse the issue writing in intentional crashes, and when the user reports an error they can't be sure it was legit or if it was the one they wrote in, especially since its long distance. It can take hours upon hours of staring at code and testing to track a bug. Its not something you would be too inclined to do if you weren't even sure there was a legitimate problem.

Probably a legitimate CD key would get you more credibility like you said. Even then though the bug is that much harder to isolate because you don't know whether to start with the game engine or the copy protection code, and you always have that doubt it is even real.

Aazealh said:
How is that certain at all? I mean I understand your logic here, but it's something that's been proven over time to simply be untrue. There's only a ridiculously small portion of people that test games illegally before buying them, something that likely numbers under 1%.

Well, I only said some would buy it otherwise. I think thats more likely proven true than untrue. I don't know the percent but I've actually done it myself for a few reasons. One would be just I happen to love the game. I did this with some Silent Hill games. Two is that sometimes your 6 gig download is going at 2kb or turns out to be corrupt after taking 2 days. A third reason is that people decide they want the code so they can use multiplayer or something like that. Out of a thousand or million people that stuff happens. Some will always buy it, but not if they think it will crash and be unplayable.


Aazealh said:
But the point you're missing is that a lot of companies are stopping PC exclusivities when they don't stop developing on PC altogether. The PC market is going to slowly die if this continues.

Hard to say. I'm considering going into this field so I think about this myself on a regular basis. I like AI, and I like physics, and I like games. I can't see it dying for a few reasons. One is that computers will likely always be ahead of consoles and its compelling to write cutting edge stuff. Two is that there are a lot of people who just have personal preference to game on the PC and and are willing to pay for games. That number is at least in the millions so thats a decent market. Third is that while the console market is limited to the number of consoles sold, the PC market is potentially triple that if you can compel them to buy the game somehow. I can't give you the numbers on this but it is also always possible to create a PC game with a cheap budget. I think with the consoles you incur more licensing fees.

Semi related but I'm already working on the engines for 2 games. I will get more into that after finals, at least untill AoC comes out but I wanted to do Berserk related stuff with each engine so you will probably get a look at some point. One is for classic zelda style RPGs and the other is similar to a dating sim engine. I'm thinking about doing a choose your own adventure style Berserk comedy with that one. Carcus would be the school bully or maybe the leading man. :carcus:
 
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