Do you think Casca will grudge Guts for nearly raping her?

I did a search and didn't fight a topic quite like this and to elaborate I mean that if Casca's mental state returns to normal and if she remembers somethings from being nearly retarded, do you think if she remembers Guts nearly raping her that she'll grudge/hate or maybe not trust him the same way.

I don't think so. I mean their first time wasn't exactly the gentlest experience either and when Guts explained the abuse he went through, Caska understood. This isn't much different. Apart from the retardation and possession by a evil spirit factors. I think they may have to reconcile for a while but in the end it should work out.

I'm really hoping that the DC game is considered a part of the plot, I'm lead to believe this is true because of the mandragora plant at Flora's place. If this is the case then Caska might remember quite a bit, in which case she would remember the good along with the bad or at least pieces of the incidents that transpired. Imo, if Caska regains her sanity at Elfhelm and she resumes her romantic relationship with Guts, I know there are a lot of other things as well but lets say all the smaller things work out. Then imo the plot will turn towards the demon child. If there's one thing thats consistent with Caska it's her desire to be with her child again. She has demonstrated this on numerous occasions. Which I don't believe I need to elaborate on. If she does ask what happened to the child, I hope Skullknight will have some insight into the matter. (Like that the child is now a part of Griffith) That is if we assume that since he advised them towards the island.. he will eventually appear there as well, to see how things turn out. However I am slightly concerned about the extent of Caska's memory. If she does not remember everything apart from her having a child, would Guts tell her the child is dead or would he tell her the child is missing? Lots of speculation, I know. Well those are my thoughts on the matter (okay maybe I really went of topic, sorry)

No need to apologize for having lots of speculation, this is speculation nation after all.
I'm not familiar with the Dreamcast game, so my speculation for Casca's feelings about being nearly raped are all based on the manga, and even this is limited to my impressions gained from her while in her current state. If you notice whenever Guts is close to Casca or tries to touch her she makes a disgusted face, as a matter of fact its more like a sneer, its like a dog right before it snarls to warn someone to "back off". There are even the occasions when she would retreat behind Farnese and peek over Farnese's shoulder to look at Guts and usually she'll sneer at him while doing it.

Of course we all know these had to be an important details because they arewhat (along with Farnese's own feelings for Guts) drove Farnese to speak to Casca about all the sacrifice Guts makes for her. Her negative reactions towards Guts started after the near raping and were precipitated by him tying her up because she kept trying to run away, mostly because of the near rape.

So to add to my question, how much do you guys think that when her mind is restored (if, though its a safe bet) that she may have some ill towards Guts because she'll already have feelings of distrust because of Griffith's betrayal. Even if she loved Guts and he was her lover, she still loved Griffith and if one loved one betrays someone, then another does nearly the same thing I can't imagine her overlooking it (if she remembers it at all) if this is the case this could be used as a tool by Miura to throw some conflict within Guts' group, maybe even with the other females in the group who admire Guts.

If you don't mind spoilers for the game, Heres a video from the DC game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBuQ6dVwe0o

Guts intestines said:

So to add to my question, how much do you guys think that when her mind is restored (if, though its a safe bet) that she may have some ill towards Guts because she'll already have feelings of distrust because of Griffith's betrayal.

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Its only speculation but I really don't think Casca will have ill feelings towards Guts. Maybe at first she will still be distrustful and probably disorientated but If all she blames him for is the attempted rape then Guts could easily explain himself. Imo it's more likely that we'll get a "repeat" of the waterfall scene from before the eclipse. Or more specifically, Casca calling Guts a idiot for always getting injured to protect her. Or at least something along those lines. However I am curious about how Casca feels towards Griffith. I don't think we can assume she still cares for him from scenes like the hill of swords. For all we know she could sense the demon child. Also I don't think Casca's distrust of Guts is really all that related to Griffith's betrayal. Her insanity is related of course but her current distrust can be attributed to the fact that he almost strangled her when he was possessed. And when she killed those bandits right before Farnese, Serpico and Isidro joined the group, Guts held her down and bit her breast. Those two incidents made Casca distrustful of Guts not Griffith's betrayal.. after all, Casca was quite trustful of Guts after Albion. Also Guts hasn't betrayed Casca, attempted rape is one thing, but Guts and Casca's conflict lies more in the nature of assault and violation.

After Casca regains her sanity I could easily see her being uncomfortable around Guts and I really don't think her sanity will just go pop and reappear and she'll know exactly whats going on. The more likely case is that she will need time to settle in and during that time she will reconcile with Guts. Although if she REALLY does have ill feelings for Guts, you are right that Miura could really throw in some conflict. I for one would both love and hate to see Guts fall on his knees and cry. (Miura could really deliver a heart gripping plot twist in the upcoming episodes.) There are really too many directions Miura can take the story at Elfhelm. If Casca resents Guts, he could, after dealing with his emotions on the subject, continue his revenge and completely give in to his inner beast.

Ramen4ever said:

Her insanity is related of course but her current distrust can be attributed to the fact that he almost strangled her when he was possessed.

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That's what I was saying, remember I said Her negative reactions towards Guts started after the near raping and were precipitated by him tying her up because she kept trying to run away, mostly because of the near rape. The stuff about Griffith's betrayal has to do with me trying to look from Casca's perspective that the man that was for a long time the center of her universe just betrayed her by raping her (not even considering the fact that he had all the other hawks sacrificed, nor gave her the brand that she'll bare for the rest of her life.) so this would make it hard enough to trust anybody else, so for Guts, who of all people she loves as much as Griffith, so for him to try to rape her after he bore witness to her being raped would probably be a betrayal in her eyes, one I think that if she remembers it could cause them to take a step back in their relationship. Now of course, Guts would try to explain the beast in him, but that wouldn't stop her, like the others in the group, from fearing that part of him. So in a nutshell I believe there may be some resentment and fear to be dealt with when she is finally fixed and we agree there as well.

A lot of messed up things happened to her from almost being raped as a child, to the eclipse events and various things between then and now. If she were to regain memories of all those events then I'm not sure what her ranking of traumatic experiences would be. I would think that Griffith's betrayal would rank higher than anything Guts ever did to upset/harm her. I think the good Guts has done for Casca severely outweighs any negatives.

KazigluBey said:

I would think that Griffith's betrayal would rank higher than anything Guts ever did to upset/harm her. I think the good Guts has done for Casca severely outweighs any negatives.

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Yes, but if that were case then Casca wouldn't grudge Guts now even in the state she's in because remember he's saved her countless times since she's become like this, and yet she still seems to grudge him. Well on the bright side that means her memory still works atleast .

Guts intestines said:

Yes, but if that were case then Casca wouldn't grudge Guts now even in the state she's in because remember he's saved her countless times since she's become like this, and yet she still seems to grudge him. Well on the bright side that means her memory still works atleast .

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Well lets not forget that we really don't know the extent of how much Caska can actually analyze from whats going on around her. Most of the times that Guts saved Caska in the more recent episodes or I should say post Albion, it was semi indirect. Like when Guts killed the apostle at Flora's mention that was trying to eat Farneze and Caska. For all we know Caska was just watching him kill something but felt that the one protecting her then was Farneze. After all she was hiding behind Farneze. I think Caska's mind is really quite limited to direct interactions and maybe she can sense the general emotion or intent someone has towards her. Caska really didn't seem aware of the fact that Guts was protecting her when he was waving that giant torch around at the blob in Albion. Or when Guts protected her from the numerous evil spirits during their winter trip. She only acknowledged the part were he tried to strangle her. When Guts protected her from everyone at Albion, all his direct interactions with Caska demonstrated that he cared for her. Like when he hugged her when she was in pain.
When he assaulted her that was also a direct interaction that had a dramatic change on how she viewed him. If Guts tried to directly show Caska that he cared for her, I think they could reconcile even with Caska in her current state of mind.
Guts has not shown that he cares for Caska in a direct way since before he tried to strangle her. And now that Farneze is taking care of Caska, he really doesn't have a lot of opportunities to do it either. Interestingly enough, in the latest episode Caska seemed rather fine being beside Guts in the boat. Guts directly tried to save her from drowning. After that, we saw that Caska was relatively fine being beside Guts. both when he had a fever during the pirate battle, and in the more recent episode when they were in the cabin.

Yes, the main issue here is the fact that we don't know the extent of Casca's ability to analyze, however I feel its a pretty safe bet that she knows that its him saving her because he's the one killing the monsters and there was the time when he saved Farnese and Casca from the trolls while Farnese was doing her best to protect them it would be clear to even Casca that Guts saved them or atleast that was his intention , but even if she didn't see it that way means that the good he does not only doesn't outweigh the negatives, but instead is a non-factor. Plus in chapter 288 (I'm pretty sure, I checked really quickly) she looks at him resentfully while grasping the mast, then when he (this show directly that he cares for her, in a way she would even understand.) goes to save her while drowning she struggles against him, now you could argue that she was flailing because she was drowning, however let's consider the fact that Farnese bothered to have a talk with her, this implies that the way she was acting was directly aimed to show a distrust in Guts, otherwise Farnese wouldn't have said anything.

Plus, her outward signs of resent were shown mostly through facial expressions, she never showed complete distrust or hostility towards him unless he directly tried to interact with him, so you can't really argue that she felt fine being near Guts because as long as he didn't attempt to touch her, she would show indifference as seen in the cabin everyone else was gathered around injured feverish Guts, while she was messing with something. plus take in consideration that while in their quarters in the boat Guts is mostly bed ridden so that would provide little threat of contact to Casca, so in that case she shows her indifference but not making eye contact with him, in fact I don't ever remember her paying him any attention through eye contact, even when they have been in close proximity, which only further illustrates her mindset of, "I don't mind if your close to me, just don't touch or talk to me."

One more thing I noticed as have many probably is Miura's subtle way of displaying peoples feelings towards each other, in this case Guts. Since Schierke's feelings for him are dealt with most in frequency and are more direct we can assume that her feelings for him between are strongest, I'd say the order right now is Schierke likes him most, Farnese second and Casca as of now, least. Schierke directly in her head shows a desire for closeness with him when she said that no one else will have that special connection they shared because of the time when their astral bodies were merged. Farnese is at that stage where she questions her feelings for him, like when she popped out of astral mode and was wondering why she did that as Guts was talking to Roderick, and plus the thinking of him when she was talking to her mom about marrying Roderick. We all know she likes him but because the author shows it in a subtle way we can assume its to a lesser extent, more of a discovery stage. Casca is at the other end her subtleties aren't pointed towards liking him they're pointed towards grudging him and this all started happening after the eclipse (waterfall scene) but at that time it seemed like she was cautious of all males, because remember Rickert said she only trusted Erika, implying she didn't trust him, Godo, or Guts. Now however she only shows a distrust of Guts, and there are other males in the picture such as Serpico, Isidro, hell even Puck. For these reasons I believe Casca has a grudge which is something I also believe will be a cause for conflict even after she's fixed.

and sorry for the long post.

Guts intestines said:

however I feel its a pretty safe bet that she knows that its him saving her because he's the one killing the monsters and there was the time when he saved Farnese and Casca from the trolls while Farnese was doing her best to protect them it would be clear to even Casca that Guts saved them or atleast that was his intention ,

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I think it's more complicated then that and I don't think Casca (at the moment) can understand that Guts was saving her all this time. If she regains her sanity and she retains her memory of all the events then yes, I think she would realize that he was saving her. But as she is right now I don't think she knows. If it was really all that clear to her, she wouldn't resent him everytime they made eye contact or were in close proximity. For all we know she simply sees it as a man who once tried to assault her is killing things and glancing at her every once in a while. I don't think she understands his intentions and it's very possible that she might be misinterpreting his intentions. Instead of seeing "Hey If I die your screwed, so you stay put and I'll kill everything." she might be seeing "uoghhh ahhh iuooogghhhh" okay just kidding, she might interpret his actions as "that man looks scary and he likes to hurt and kill things." She might not realize the reasoning behind the killing.

Guts intestines said:

but even if she didn't see it that way means that the good he does not only doesn't outweigh the negatives, but instead is a non-factor.

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I agree, in her current state, most of his indirect actions are non-factors. If she regains her sanity that could change completely.. at least if she remembers everything. Then she could analyze what it was Guts was trying to do. In which case I don't think she would have a lot of ill will towards him. The non-factors would become factors again.

Guts intestines said:

Plus in chapter 288 (I'm pretty sure, I checked really quickly) she looks at him resentfully while grasping the mast, then when he (this show directly that he cares for her, in a way she would even understand.) goes to save her while drowning she struggles against him, now you could argue that she was flailing because she was drowning, however let's consider the fact that Farnese bothered to have a talk with her, this implies that the way she was acting was directly aimed to show a distrust in Guts, otherwise Farnese wouldn't have said anything.

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When she was on the mast, she was still resentful of Guts. When he approached her she thought that he was trying to do her harm. Remember that she really wasn't even aware of the danger. If she knew she was in danger of falling that would of been different but she didn't. Then when she did fall he tried to save her, first by grabbing her hand.. then by jumping in the water after her. Her struggling can be interpreted either way, she didn't want to drown or she was struggling against him. However I'm leaning a bit more towards that she was trying not to drown, because she wasn't scratching as his face or anything.

As for Farneze's talk with Casca, imo Farneze made an issue out of the incident because Casca was completely indifferent to Guts actions. He risked his life, while he was injured, to save her. And Casca wasn't even slightly concerned about his health after or if he was even alive. Imo that is why Farneze snapped.

Guts intestines said:

Plus, her outward signs of resent were shown mostly through facial expressions, she never showed complete distrust or hostility towards him unless he directly tried to interact with him, so you can't really argue that she felt fine being near Guts because as long as he didn't attempt to touch her, she would show indifference as seen in the cabin everyone else was gathered around injured feverish Guts,

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What about at Flora's place, after Guts regains his sense and kills the apostle that is trying to eat Farneze and Casca.. he doesn't make any move against Casca, he just stands there. And Casca was really glaring at him that time. The only interaction being eye contact. Yes, on the boat, in the cabin one can argue that Casca was unconcerned because Guts was sleeping and Farneze was right beside her. However two episodes ago when Miura made a cut back to the boat for half an episode. It was only Casca, Guts, Puck and Iveralla (sp). Farneze was not even there. And Casca was right beside Guts without any problems. And in that scene Guts was quite active. Before, Casca didn't like being in close proximity to Guts or when they made eye contact. After he saved her from drowning and Farneze snapped, Casca became more comfortable being around Guts. Unfortunately for all we know, Miura just didn't have enough frames during that flash back to the boat, to show Casca glaring at Guts. However I'm in the hopes that shes actually less resentful of him.

If Casca regained her sanity but only retained fragments of her memory, things like the basic emotions of the different incidents then yes I agree, she could have ill feelings towards Guts. However if she retains her memory, the actual events or all/most of her memory. I really don't think she could have ill will towards him or at least not for long because she would actually be able to analyze the reasons behind his actions and even the indirect things.

Guts intestines said:

and sorry for the long post.

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Meh, mine aren't any shorter. besides it's hard to have a conversation with 2 sentences per post. >_<

I don't think Casca (at the moment) can understand that Guts was saving her all this time. If she regains her sanity and she retains her memory of all the events then yes, I think she would realize that he was saving her. But as she is right now I don't think she knows. If it was really all that clear to her, she wouldn't resent him everytime they made eye contact or were in close proximity. For all we know she simply sees it as a man who once tried to assault her is killing things and glancing at her every once in a while. I don't think she understands his intentions and it's very possible that she might be misinterpreting his intentions. Instead of seeing "Hey If I die your screwed, so you stay put and I'll kill everything." she might be seeing "uoghhh ahhh iuooogghhhh" okay just kidding, she might interpret his actions as "that man looks scary and he likes to hurt and kill things." She might not realize the reasoning behind the killing.

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I think your over simplifying a little bit here, take the troll situation with Farnese protecting Casca. In this situation we know Casca knows that Farnese equals good and the trolls equal bad, we can tell because Casca stays behind Farnese and doesn't run to play with the trolls so this means Casca is capable of analyzing a situation enough to atleast recognize good from bad, even more so considering the trolls hadn't harmed her. So from here to further illustrate this put yourself in Casca's shoes, hard to do I know, but imagine it like the whole, "I am an alien from another world I know nothing of this world, try to describe something to me exercise." Okay, ready? So we know nothing in this world except that Farnese=good, trolls=bad, Farnese fends off the trolls, which by following this logic we know that if Casca doesn't run to play with the trolls then she can atleast perceive evil intentions. This is proven because she doesn't try to run from behind Farnese because Farnese=good. Enter Guts, who fights of the trolls, who we can logically assume through Casca response to be evil, that if Farnese=good and trolls=bad, and Guts fights trolls to help Farnese, who=good, then based purely off Casca's now proven ability to perceive evil or good intentions then you can logically support that Guts because he helped a perceived good person =good himself in Casca's eyes.

Now you say that if she could understand this principle then why would she resent him? Logically, based off the above idea that'd be correct, however the above idea doesn't take into account the past events of Guts nearly raping her and biting her breast into account, so the formula now becomes more like this: trolls<Guts<Farnese. This would also explain why Casca is indifferent to him, as long as he doesn't bother her he'll stay in that middle zone, good because he saved her, bad in her eyes because he harmed her in the past. Now that might seem unfair, except that remember she was raped before, and we also can prove through logic that she remembers this because remember the waterfall scene? In that we found out that she only trusted Ericka, why? because she was female and not a threat of rape in Casca's eyes.

This is proven because Ericka was the only one she trusted not Rickert, not Godo, and not Guts, even before the rape attempt. This supports the idea that Casca had begun to have feelings of distrust towards men, however it had not reached a level that of hate, when Guts tried to rape her, he fell from that indifferent slightly distrustful middle zone to the point that being around him was no longer tolerable, which is proven by the fact that when Guts had saved her she tried to move around the tree to create some distance from him along with making nasty looks at him. By constantly saving Casca, in her mind he's earned enough trust back so that she can stand him being within proximity again, however this was a slow journey back to this trust, that's why after Guts had saved her and Farnese at Flora's place there wasn't enough trust/love gained by that action to cancel out the rape attempt in Casca's mind, but enough so as long as Farnese was there and seemed fine with Guts' presence then Casca could accept it as well, but grudgingly and with a nasty look thrown in.

This journey of gaining trust also explains why Casca could stand Guts' being active around her w/o Farnese in the boat because this was one of the later episodes in which he had saved her so many times that he had earned that middle ground back again, (I still think she might throw him a nasty look if he tries to make eye contact because right before she fell in the water she gave him one) so after all that he has only earned his way back to the point of the waterfall in terms of trust, otherwise I may have believed it possible for him to do something so valiant that he would get passed this barrier of general distrust that Casca has towards men, but because she still shows distrust whenever he tries to touch her, I just don't see it happening until maybe when she is mentally restored. And that is the state in which I am basing my question.

Whadya kno another long post .

Guts intestines said:

In this situation we know Casca knows that Farnese equals good and the trolls equal bad, we can tell because Casca stays behind Farnese and doesn't run to play with the trolls so this means Casca is capable of analyzing a situation enough to atleast recognize good from bad,

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Actually the problem there is that she can't tell the trolls are bad. Look at the last episode of volume 25 and the beginning of volume 26. Here I'll even post an image from it.


Notice how Farnese is freaking out and protecting Casca. Meanwhile Casca pays attention to things that move and really if you look at all the pages. She doesn't seem concerned. She only starts glaring when Guts shows up.

Guts intestines said:

then based purely off Casca's now proven ability to perceive evil or good intentions then you can logically support that Guts because he helped a perceived good person =good himself in Casca's eyes.

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Unfortunately if we actually look at that scene it's very clear that Casca did not perceive Guts as her rescuer and she did not feel threatened by the trolls. She got her face squished between Farnese and a wall but thats about it. In fact.. I'll post some more pictures


Farneze freaking out.. and Casca looking at the interesting sight. Shes really quite indifferent

Again Farneze scared because of the trolls and Casca.. quite indifferent yet again.

Ohh big bad Guts..
You based your theory on Farnese=good and Trolls=bad. But Casca doesn't perceive it like that at all.

Damn, that's a lessoned to be learned kiddies, always check the panels BEFORE you post. Yeah, I had checked after I posted it and saw what you just showed me. I was so sure that Casca had shown a worried face, I remembered every detail, even her being squished against the wall and I had thought that after she got squished she had made a worried face.

Well, you busted most of my theory, however, I think you sort of helped my case just by showing that Casca's grudge runs so deep that she distrusts Guts over trolls, so maybe the trolls were at that point of indifference that I had Guts at. So now we can see that Casca view almost everything with indifference, and has a tendency to trust females more freely, such as Farnese, Schierke, Ericka, and that prostitute. The things she can perceive as bad are the things that have tried to harm her directly, who would of course be Guts so instead of Guts being in the middle, he's actually at the end so now it reads like Guts<trolls<Farnese. Your argument was that Casca in her current state can't perceive intentions, you right about the trolls but not the general situation. I had argued off the basis that the real perceived evil were the trolls, but in reality due to Casca's way of observing things it was actually Guts. And again if you view Casca as someone who is someone who exists in the world with no foreknowledge/common sense, its easy to see what's going on and to understand why I still believe she'll bear a grudge against Guts even after she's fixed.

Ok now that we know that Guts<trolls<Farnese we can try to understand why this is the case. How bout this, Casca is like a person who has lived under a rock all her life with no common sense to perceive good or evil intentions, so when she meets people they all start at equal footing(she has a tendency however to be quicker to distrust males, and more likely to feel safer around females)no matter what they may appear to be. So say your Casca and you come across the most sinister looking serial killer (the trolls) who has harmed many people, but he has never harmed you directly. And alongside you is someone who you trust, which of course is Farnese (though I think Schierke could've fit here too), Farnese goes to protect you from the guy, who to a normal person would seem wicked and out for blood. But, because the trolls never have never hurt you, they don't cause any alarms in your mind to sound off so you ignore Farnese's help and probably don't even understand why she's keeping you from going about your own business. So enter Guts who begins to fight the killer, because the killer never harmed you before the real immediate threat is Guts because he has hurt you before, so after he makes short work of the killer (a heroic move in the eyes of someone with common sense) he goes towards you. Whereas before Farnese tried to protect you from the actual danger and you didn't feel like you were in danger, once Guts comes along and approaches you that's when you truly perceive that Farnese is good and this time Guts is the real evil. This explains why Casca hides behind Farnese at that point because she now feels like she's truly in danger and wants the "good person" to protect her.

You were saying that Casca is irrational and her perception is broken, so that's why you believe that once her brain is back to normal she won't grudge Guts, the problem with that is not that her perception is necessarily broken, it's more like its skewed to the point that the greatest evil in the world can be near her, but as long as she hasn't been harmed by it before she won't fear it. That's the whole perception is reality thing. Casca is not so much retarded, its more like what she is, a person who has felt severe trauma, in this case at the hands of a male, which is has caused her to lose the ability to speak and explains why she is more likely to fear/distrust a man. Also she has a view of almost complete innocence, even the most sinister thing isn't evil as long as it doesn't harm her, it'd be perfect innocence if not for her tendency to distrust men.

Based off what she's been through I just don't see even a restored Casca being a hundred percent able to trust men again which I only believe because of the reaction she has shown to many of them now. At best she is indifferent to them, at worst would be the way she reacts to Guts because of what he did. I can't imagine Kentarou writing the story to shape up like Casca and group battle their way to Elfhelm, Casca gets fixed,then enter perfect relationship between Guts and Casca, and then their biggest problem is Griffith.

I see the past being a problem for them along with what Gut's wants to do with Griffith vs. Casca's possible feelings (as foreshadowed by SK), Casca may also (like I believe) have an issue with Guts after nearly raping her, and maybe even Casca's ability to settle into the group are all possible conflicts that can find their way into the story.

Of course I am assuming she'll remember anything after she's fixed, I think she will, and I think it might be like her mind was behind a wall that kept her from being able to interact in the fullest way that she had wanted to, but she was still conscious enough to remember and react. I just don't see Kentarou doing some hackey situation like I said earlier and having her not even able to remember past events, huh Guts would wish to be so lucky. Let's not forget that Guts is the struggler, the above possibilities are too convenient for what we're used to seeing the hand of fate/idea/whoever the hell it is deal him.

Man it feels like I just got done writing a term paper, well atleast we're racking up posts .

What an interesting discussion to wake up to!

This topic has been bothering me for awhile as well. You guys really brought up a lot of good points, especially Casca's attachment to other woman. I would have to say I agree more with Ramen though.

First, I think Casca is inclined to interacting with women solely because they are more protective and considerate. I don't exactly think that Rickert or Godo would be as gentle and patient with Casca as Erika would be.

It's true, Casca would undeniably be more uncomfortable around men now that she's been raped by a former love interest and then repeatedly near raped by all kinds of people. She may even be uncomfortable getting close to Guts, but I think she won't have any grudge against him.

As for her current state, Casca is like an infant or a toddler that can not recognize a threat until she endures physical pain or distress. I think of a child who enjoys climbing up trees and such. Once when I was 9 or something for example, I has sitting on the head rest of a couch at my cousin's house. Out of no where, one of her pet cockatiels (I kinda raised a bunch of them.) flew into my face. I fall down, and hit my head on a marble counter. I get five stitches an inch away from my eye, and I can't remember that last time I decided to sit like that, oh wait that was probably it.

Yeah, I believe both arguments to be plausible, otherwise I probably wouldn't understand the otherside enough to argue. I just think that Kentarou is hinting at things to come as conflict between Guts and Casca based off her behavior towards him, because like I said, I strongly doubt that when Casca is fixed that she and Guts will be able to pick their relationship up from where it left off. If that is the case there are only a couple of things that support this:
1. Casca might think to forgive Griffith vs. Guts wanting to kill him = conflict (SK foreshadowed it, but I hope not.) 2. Casca has feelings of anger or slight distrust of Guts for nearly raping her = conflict (she already shows this through her actions now, whether this behavior will carry on once she's fixed is yet to be seen.)

Honestly, do you think Kentarou would really have them agree on what to do with Griffith, as well as have Casca instantly forgive Guts, even though she has shown no sign of that now? At best it'll be one or the other, no way for both.

Okin said:

First, I think Casca is inclined to interacting with women solely because they are more protective and considerate. I don't exactly think that Rickert or Godo would be as gentle and patient with Casca as Erika would be.

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You honestly believe that Rickert is not a gentle, patient person? For one its a miracle that Casca in her current state didn't mistake him for a girl based purely off appearance (even though she knows him), but I highly doubt that Casca even gave him the chance to prove that he could be gentle or patient. No, I bet as soon as she gained consciousness she avoided Godo and Rickert and gravitated towards Erika. And like I said before, this is all because Griffith raped her. She distrusted Guts the same way off the bat, then after traveling with her for awhile she began to trust him, however after he nearly raped her this trust went away.

Okin said:

As for her current state, Casca is like an infant or a toddler that can not recognize a threat until she endures physical pain or distress.

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I agree, and I mentioned this earlier.

So, I read most of this thread on my phone while I was at work today, and I must say that SK.net loses a little something in mobile view!

But now that I'm home, I can actually reply... aren't you all lucky...

I'm not going to point any fingers, but you guys do realize you're trying to apply logic to decisions made by Casca, right?

Anyway, back to point -

Guts intestines said:

If Casca's mental state returns to normal and if she remembers somethings from being nearly retarded, do you think if she remembers Guts nearly raping her that she'll grudge/hate or maybe not trust him the same way.

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First off, it wasn't the near-rape that started Casca's distrust of Guts... In V23C2, Guts tries to strangle her after she crawls away while he's attempting to protect her. This leads to her attempting to run away, at which point Guts ties her hands. The attempted rape occurs two chapters later, following Casca's slaying of the other men trying to rape her... But I digress...

I think what she'll remember is a pretty big "if" at this point. Ol' Skully tells Guts it may be possible "for the branded girl to regain her heart." For all we know, Casca may simply have regressed to the level of a newborn after the events of the Eclipse. She certainly displays the language skills of an infant. If her condition is such, then perhaps she also has the memory capacity of a baby. Personally, I don't remember anything before I was 2 1/2, and then it's scattershot at best.

Guts intestines said:

. . . Guts<trolls<Farnese . . .

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You've gotta be kidding me here... Especially since...

Okin said:

As for her current state, Casca is like an infant or a toddler that can not recognize a threat until she endures physical pain or distress.

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Guts intestines said:

I agree, and I mentioned this earlier.

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How can an infant or toddler form a logical relationship like the one you described? That's not simply a value judgment, it's an "if-and-then" relationship... one many adults are incapable of. I agree with Okin; this is why Casca fears Guts, but not the Trolls. But she doesn't rank the trolls above Guts, she just doesn't consider them at all.

But, since this is a speculation forum, and not a "poke holes in speculations" forum, let me add my own opinion. Since we believe Casca's mind to be similar to that of a child, then can we consider Guts' actions those of a parent? (Sure, an abusive parent at times) Perhaps when Casca's mind is restored, she simply "grows up," and like many adult children, views her punishment as deserved.

einherjar said:

First off, it wasn't the near-rape that started Casca's distrust of Guts... In V23C2, Guts tries to strangle her after she crawls away while he's attempting to protect her. This leads to her attempting to run away, at which point Guts ties her hands. The attempted rape occurs two chapters later, following Casca's slaying of the other men trying to rape her... But I digress...

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totally forgot about that scene, so fine how bout this: If Casca's mental state returns to normal and if she remembers somethings from being nearly retarded, do you think she remembers Guts strangling her and nearly raping her that she'll grudge/hate or maybe not trust him the same way. There happy . All that does is add more incentive for her to distrust him if her memory returns.

einherjar said:

How can an infant or toddler form a logical relationship like the one you described? That's not simply a value judgment, it's an "if-and-then" relationship... one many adults are incapable of. I agree with Okin; this is why Casca fears Guts, but not the Trolls. But she doesn't rank the trolls above Guts, she just doesn't consider them at all.

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No, a toddler (screw infant, I doubt she has regressed this far) can't write out an if then relationship, but most toddlers who have been burned by fire (or an iron) had better be able to contemplate one other wise they won't live long. So here's one a toddler or child would understand: if fire is hot, and hot hurts then if I touch fire I'll hurt too. You don't have to be a genius at logic to get that one. So to bring it into terms that would represent Casca's situation here it is: If Guts strangled and bit my breast, and this hurt then if Guts is near me he might hurt me again. So assuming she has regressed this far she would still be able to understand this much.

einherjar said:

She certainly displays the language skills of an infant. If her condition is such, then perhaps she also has the memory capacity of a baby. Personally, I don't remember anything before I was 2 1/2, and then it's scattershot at best.

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Again no, Casca show's as much skills with language as one who has gone mute, hell you could argue her mind is like that of a mute child, or even that her language skills are of that of someone who, I don't know, is suffering from Post traumatic stress. Now what could of caused that? Hmm. Maybe being raped by your friend/first love interest who suddenly turned into a demon and had all you other friends sacrificed to demons and to make matters worse raped you in front of you first lover, or something along those lines.

If you would have truly understood that little if then you would have known that it doesn't necessarily meant the trolls were over Guts, it really means Guts is on the far left which in Casca's mind would make him the most evil in the situation because he has hurt her before, whereas the trolls are in the middle which makes them a non-concern for her. Farnese being on the far right is someone who is viewed as a friend or ally. If someone with the mind of a child could arrange people in their mind so that those who have hurt them before would be in Guts' spot those who have not done anything to them are a non-concern, and someone like their parents on the familiar/safe right side. I'll excuse you for not getting it since you read it on a phone at work, and since you said most adults wouldn't even understand it .

My two cents are worth that much,So, I've read this thread. And i gotta admit, it's kinda lost me. Primarily cause i am stuck at one point and i can't really make any reasonable suspicions when it comes to Guts and Casca. Maybe it is just me, but how is Guts' ATTEMPTED rape under the armor's control any different from the ACTUAL rape committed by Femto? Especially considering the absence of humanity in both male characters. For me once i get that straight i'll be able to make a better determination.

Skorne said:

My two cents are worth that much,So, I've read this thread. And i gotta admit, it's kinda lost me. Primarily cause i am stuck at one point and i can't really make any reasonable suspicions when it comes to Guts and Casca. Maybe it is just me, but how is Guts' ATTEMPTED rape under the armor's control any different from the ACTUAL rape committed by Femto? Especially considering the absence of humanity in both male characters. For me once i get that straight i'll be able to make a better determination.

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When did Gut's try to rape Casca with the Berserk's armor on????
You lost me for a second there. I'm sure you meant the beasts influence.
imo, the difference is that if Casca regains her sanity.. at least Gut's can explain that he was possesed when he tried to strangle her and he might even be able to explain the attempted rape as well. Griffith's rape was deliberate. Guts was going insane.. his was more a spur of the moment thing.

As for Guts being devoid of humanity.. Yes just look at the inhumane face. Indifference at it's finest. Oh wait a minute.

Nice, Ramen4ever that picture is hilarious !
And how is this still on page one?

Guts intestines said:

If Casca's mental state returns to normal and if she remembers somethings from being nearly retarded, do you think she remembers Guts strangling her and nearly raping her that she'll grudge/hate or maybe not trust him the same way . . . All that does is add more incentive for her to distrust him if her memory returns.

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Unless she's able to remember the events objectively, and evaluate them in a way we don't think she can at this point, in which case she might understand the less-than-average circumstances under which they occurred.

Guts intestines said:

So to bring it into terms that would represent Casca's situation here it is: If Guts strangled and bit my breast, and this hurt then if Guts is near me he might hurt me again. So assuming she has regressed this far she would still be able to understand this much.

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I have no disagreement with that.

Guts intestines said:

Casca show's as much skills with language as one who has gone mute, hell you could argue her mind is like that of a mute child, or even that her language skills are of that of someone who, I don't know, is suffering from Post traumatic stress.

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And one defense mechanism used to cope with such stress is called "regression." A person reverts his / her mind to an earlier, safer point in its development. We know Casca was nearly raped by a noble before Griffith gave her the means to help herself, so infancy may have been the only "safe" place her mind could go.

Guts intestines said:

If you would have truly understood that little if then you would have known that it doesn't necessarily meant the trolls were over Guts, it really means Guts is on the far left which in Casca's mind would make him the most evil in the situation because he has hurt her before, whereas the trolls are in the middle which makes them a non-concern for her. Farnese being on the far right is someone who is viewed as a friend or ally. If someone with the mind of a child could arrange people in their mind so that those who have hurt them before would be in Guts' spot those who have not done anything to them are a non-concern, and someone like their parents on the familiar/safe right side. I'll excuse you for not getting it since you read it on a phone at work, and since you said most adults wouldn't even understand it .

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My point was that since she doesn't care about the trolls, they don't even enter into her thoughts.

Skorne said:

how is Guts' ATTEMPTED rape . . . any different from the ACTUAL rape committed by Femto?

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It's different in the eyes of the law... But I doubt Guts' actions would have caused the trauma that Femto's rape did... (Not that the two events could exist independently)

Unless she's able to remember the events objectively, and evaluate them in a way we don't think she can at this point, in which case she might understand the less-than-average circumstances under which they occurred.

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I know that's why I said "if" so many times. My question is based off these conditions being met, so once you understand that then do you think she will hold a grudge against him? Your answer was that last part: "in which case she might understand the less-than-average circumstances under which they occurred." So what your saying is basically no, if she understands that the beast was controlling Guts, to that I say that you and possibly others are forgetting that grudges aren't really logical things that people hold against one another. So even if she understands that may or may not stop her from holding a grudge against him, the same way that everyone in the group knows Guts has the best intentions for them when he protects them, but that doesn't stop them from maintaining some fear of him because of the threat of the beast can taking hold of him and making him strike out at them. Then you have to consider the fact that Guts is the "struggler" who never has things go quite his way, so the possible conflict of an emotionally scarred Casca who's struggling to come to terms with both Guts and what happened at the eclipse, as well as meshing with the group would allow some good character development that I think Kentarou may use within the story.

And one defense mechanism used to cope with such stress is called "regression." A person reverts his / her mind to an earlier, safer point in its development. We know Casca was nearly raped by a noble before Griffith gave her the means to help herself, so infancy may have been the only "safe" place her mind could go.

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I know this already, which is why I brought up PTSD, however I don't think she has regressed to the point of an infant, she acts more like the PTSD has manifested in a way that makes her mind like an autistic child. Your point about the noble nearly raping her would be valid except it seems that the way she dealt with that trauma was by developing an unhealthy obsession with Griffith due to her gratitude, its not like she regressed into childhood then, and now she has gone even further back due to this new trauma so I just don't believe she has gone into infancy as some last haven for her mind.

My point was that since she doesn't care about the trolls, they don't even enter into her thoughts

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And my point is that to not care for someone/something you have to atleast consider them (its not like she was so oblivious to them that they were invisible to her) so I think once she considered them a non threat she felt it unnecessary for Farnese to try and protect her, however when Guts tryed to approach them she considered him an actual threat which is supported by her snarl at him as well as her staying behind Farnese.

Guts intestines said:

I know that's why I said "if" so many times. My question is based off these conditions being met, so once you understand that then do you think she will hold a grudge against him? Your answer was that last part: "in which case she might understand the less-than-average circumstances under which they occurred."

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To me, the whole question hinges on how she remembers ther events after she is cured. I think there's no doubt she will remember in some way, since she is able to do so in her current state.

Guts intestines said:

So what your saying is basically no, if she understands that the beast was controlling Guts, to that I say that you and possibly others are forgetting that grudges aren't really logical things that people hold against one another.

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If your hypothesis is that she undoubtedly will hold a grudge, then come right out and say it.

Guts intestines said:

So even if she understands that may or may not stop her from holding a grudge against him, the same way that everyone in the group knows Guts has the best intentions for them when he protects them, but that doesn't stop them from maintaining some fear of him because of the threat of the beast can taking hold of him and making him strike out at them.

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Well, only Schierke really knows about the Beast, as far as I know... But she seems more worried for Guts' own safety / sanity than anyone else's. Case in point, after his duel with Guts, she tries to assuage Serpico's fears that travelling with Guts will lead to Farnese's death at his hands. For his own part, Serpico seems to accept this, and vows to "put [his] trust in [Guts'] indomitable spirit." And Farnese herself either feels unthreatened, or is too infatuated with Guts to notice the danger he could present.

Guts intestines said:

Then you have to consider the fact that Guts is the "struggler" who never has things go quite his way, so the possible conflict of an emotionally scarred Casca who's struggling to come to terms with both Guts and what happened at the eclipse, as well as meshing with the group would allow some good character development that I think Kentarou may use within the story.

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I think any conflict stemming from Casca's restored personality will have more to do with whether Guts continues pursuing Griffith. Which would make for a better story, too, I think. By the way, there's something about calling him "Kentarou" instead of "Miura" that sort of irks me.

Guts intestines said:

I know this already, which is why I brought up PTSD, however I don't think she has regressed to the point of an infant, she acts more like the PTSD has manifested in a way that makes her mind like an autistic child. Your point about the noble nearly raping her would be valid except it seems that the way she dealt with that trauma was by developing an unhealthy obsession with Griffith due to her gratitude, its not like she regressed into childhood then, and now she has gone even further back due to this new trauma so I just don't believe she has gone into infancy as some last haven for her mind.

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To the notion of Casca as autistic, I would say that her comprehension seems to be as lacking as her ability to communicate. And to your point about the noble, he wasn't a demon, nor did he actually rape her.

Guts intestines said:

And my point is that to not care for someone/something you have to atleast consider them

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No, you don't. If I don't know of freezing aliens on Pluto, I obviously don't care about them.

einherjar said:

To me, the whole question hinges on how she remembers ther events after she is cured. I think there's no doubt she will remember in some way, since she is able to do so in her current state.

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I don't think "how" makes a difference when you understand what "if" means, I even said if she remembers somethings, (the first post) that as long as she remembers the rape attempt (and you brought up the strangling, so I added that one on to the question) do you think she'll grudge him, I think it's a pretty cut and dry question, I didn't say anything about how much of those events she remembers, which I think is pretty clear. My question is based off her remembering those moments, so even if everything else is hazy as long as she remembers those two things my question stands, if her mind some how omits the events of the boat so be it, it bears no relevance to my question, even though I basically said this when I first posted the question I'm clearing this up so now you know.

einherjar said:

If your hypothesis is that she undoubtedly will hold a grudge, then come right out and say it.

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Come on, I think after about the third straight post of me supporting that she will have a grudge, its a little pointless for me to say " ME THINK CASCA HOLD GRUDGE AGAINST GUTS, DUH." If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... you finish the rest... oh wait, sorry my bad I forgot to say the obvious: its a duck.

einherjar said:

Well, only Schierke really knows about the Beast, as far as I know... But she seems more worried for Guts' own safety / sanity than anyone else's. Case in point, after his duel with Guts, she tries to assuage Serpico's fears that travelling with Guts will lead to Farnese's death at his hands. For his own part, Serpico seems to accept this, and vows to "put [his] trust in [Guts'] indomitable spirit." And Farnese herself either feels unthreatened, or is too infatuated with Guts to notice the danger he could present.

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Again, your missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter that Schierke only truly knows the beast (simply because she's the only one to have truly seen it) everyone else knows that some evil being takes hold of Guts when he's in Berserker mode, that's all that matters, hell they can think that it looks like Michael Myers, it doesn't change the fact that they still fear him at these times. And Serpico says he'll put trust in Guts yes, but I think that means he won't be fighting Guts in order to save Farnese from some inevitable danger he might present, (which is as you said he was fearful of) not that he will trust Guts will power enough to be so foolish as to think the beast will never rear its head again, he just won't openly challenge him again. And Farnese is not some love struck little kid, you can tell by her expressions that she has some fear whenever the beast takes over, the more logical argument is that she fears more for Guts then herself, that argument is just weak.

einherjar said:

I think any conflict stemming from Casca's restored personality will have more to do with whether Guts continues pursuing Griffith.

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Granted, which is why when I brought this up I said that at the least if she hold no grudge against him there'll be conflict once it comes down to what to do with Griffith.

einherjar said:

By the way, there's something about calling him "Kentarou" instead of "Miura" that sort of irks me.

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Yeah, and it irks me when people get off topic, ah well . But if it irks you, I'll tell you I said it that way because I used to say Miura until I saw it printed on an episode like Miura Kentarou, not seeing any coma made me think his name may actually be Miura first name, last name Kentarou, even if it didn't sound right to me. But now I know for sure.

einherjar said:

To the notion of Casca as autistic, I would say that her comprehension seems to be as lacking as her ability to communicate. And to your point about the noble, he wasn't a demon, nor did he actually rape her.

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First of all, You brought up the noble saying that, "We know Casca was nearly raped by a noble before Griffith gave her the means to help herself, so infancy may have been the only "safe" place her mind could go." and to that I said that I doubted that infancy is the only place her mind had to go, because the circumstances were not as ridiculously traumatizing as what Griffith did as well as what form he did it in, and so I said she didn't regress at all from that, instead she became obsessed with her "savior" Griffith, so your just repeating the meaning of my point that I used to counter what again, you brought up. Secondly, those with Autism appear to be in another world, separate from those who even live with them, so both their language skills and comprehension can be, and usually are affected.

einherjar said:

No, you don't. If I don't know of freezing aliens on Pluto, I obviously don't care about them.

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Again you missed my meaning. I didn't say anything about her knowing about the trolls I said she had to have considered them, (in order to determine that they were not a threat based off the fact that she was indifferent to them, which is how she treats things that have never harmed her before.) because they were right in front of her and were the reason Farnese was squishing her against the wall.

So you said "know" as in you don't know anything about freezing aliens on Pluto, so you wouldn't care about them, however, if your anything like Casca and are in the position where trolls or your example, in which freezing aliens from Pluto are right in front of you, and you don't atleast consider the sight strange (or as you said they wouldn't enter her thoughts), and consider the possibility of a threat (which I believe Casca did with the trolls, and deemed them to not be a threat, can't say the same for Guts) then there must be something really wrong with you. However, you not knowing anything about freezing aliens on Pluto, is the same as Casca not knowing anything about trolls.

The point is I said considering, you said know, well there's a whole bunch of difference between the two, whereas I said Casca considered them a non-threat, what she knows about trolls is unimportant, as far as we know a sane Casca may not know the first thing about them, but we all know she'd consider them a threat, as messed up as Casca is now I still think she considered the trolls in order to determine that they were not a threat to her. Where her insanity comes into play is in the fact that after considering them she believed them to not be a threat and considers Guts to be. What you said previously (which is why I mentioned this) made it sound like the trolls were invisible to Casca, well her eyes are fine, the problem lies in her head, so she saw the trolls and by doing so her brain would have had to automatically consider them in order to determine if she would need a fight or flight response in case of any danger. Realizing that she's never been harmed by them before she felt indifference to them, when Guts approached her and Farnese she considered him a threat because he's harmed her before.

So if you still don't see the difference I'll give you one more example: I didn't know how to make you understand my meaning when I saw your response, but I immediately started considering what to post.

Guts intestines said:

I don't think "how" makes a difference when you understand what "if" means. . . I think it's a pretty cut and dry question, I didn't say anything about how much of those events she remembers, which I think is pretty clear.

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"How" makes all the difference in the world! As I previously stated, if she remembers simply that she was assaulted, yes, I think she will grudge him. But if she awakens with a comprehension of events she doesn't currently appear to possess, then no, she will not. The level of her recollection at the time of her future sanity is not in any way clear.

Guts intestines said:

Come on, I think after about the third straight post of me supporting that she will have a grudge, its a little pointless for me to say " ME THINK CASCA HOLD GRUDGE AGAINST GUTS, DUH." If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... you finish the rest... oh wait, sorry my bad I forgot to say the obvious: its a duck.

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You could be playing devil's advocate...

Guts intestines said:

It doesn't matter that Schierke only truly knows the beast (simply because she's the only one to have truly seen it) everyone else knows that some evil being takes hold of Guts when he's in Berserker mode,

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Is the Beast truly evil? Methinks him more nihilistic.

Guts intestines said:

it doesn't change the fact that they still fear him at these times.

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But Farnese doesn't seem to fear him, and as I said, Schierke seems more concerned for Guts than herself.

Guts intestines said:

And Farnese is not some love struck little kid, you can tell by her expressions that she has some fear whenever the beast takes over, the more logical argument is that she fears more for Guts then herself, that argument is just weak.

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Are you confusing Farnese with Schierke?

Guts intestines said:

First of all, You brought up the noble saying that, "We know Casca was nearly raped by a noble before Griffith gave her the means to help herself, so infancy may have been the only "safe" place her mind could go."

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I was pointing out that regressing to adolescence was not far enough for her mind to be safe.

Guts intestines said:

and to that I said that I doubted that infancy is the only place her mind had to go, because the circumstances were not as ridiculously traumatizing as what Griffith did as well as what form he did it in, and so I said she didn't regress at all from that, instead she became obsessed with her "savior" Griffith, so your just repeating the meaning of my point that I used to counter what again, you brought up.

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But it's still not an event she would feel "safe" in, hence the need for further regression.

Guts intestines said:

Again you missed my meaning. I didn't say anything about her knowing about the trolls I said she had to have considered them, (in order to determine that they were not a threat based off the fact that she was indifferent to them, which is how she treats things that have never harmed her before.) because they were right in front of her and were the reason Farnese was squishing her against the wall.

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She probably had no idea why Farnese was squishing her against the wall, because she lacked the ability to effectively analyze the situation

Guts intestines said:

So you said "know" as in you don't know anything about freezing aliens on Pluto, so you wouldn't care about them, however, if your anything like Casca and are in the position where trolls or your example, in which freezing aliens from Pluto are right in front of you, and you don't atleast consider the sight strange (or as you said they wouldn't enter her thoughts), and consider the possibility of a threat (which I believe Casca did with the trolls, and deemed them to not be a threat, can't say the same for Guts) then there must be something really wrong with you.

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No, there's something horribly wrong with Casca's psyche, because she doesn't consider the trolls. I think it might have something to do with being raped by a demon.

Guts intestines said:

What you said previously (which is why I mentioned this) made it sound like the trolls were invisible to Casca, well her eyes are fine, the problem lies in her head, so she saw the trolls and by doing so her brain would have had to automatically consider them in order to determine if she would need a fight or flight response in case of any danger.

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Seeing is not perceiving.