Author Topic: Disparity between nude men and women  (Read 26308 times)

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Offline m

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2010, 07:55:18 PM »
He means that the men all have penises of a fairly good size and shape from what we can see of them.

I see. What I was trying to say here is that the effect of a poor nutrition should be reflected in a woman's breasts.

We see a total of 2 women being used to create Daka, plus a few corpses. The second one's breasts didn't look all that big either.

I think there are more in the background awaiting their horrible fate, but I guess it doesn't make a difference.

I don't understand your sentence. Clothes or not, there are no "real women" in Berserk. And as I already pointed out, physical attractiveness does not solely depend on being fat/slim and having well-formed breasts. Besides, there are many physical deficiencies that can be found in real-life men that you don't see in the average guy in Berserk. Maybe not as common as the percentage of oddly shaped breasts in a given female population, I don't know (and neither do you).

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have used the term real women. What I mant to say here is that there are differences in the people that live in the world of Berserk. We have seen young people, old people, ugly people, good looking people, overweight people, skinny people and so on, and yet when it comes to the people shown naked, while the men depicted do have differences, i.e, we see muscular men, skinny men, chubby men, taller men, shorter men, ugly men, better looking men, plain men; the women depicted tend to be young and on the better looking side a lot more.

These women were also being selected specifically for sex if you didn't realize (like humans, the trolls didn't seem fundamentally interested in only procreation).

I know trolls are not only interested in procreation, that is clear. What I don't quite understand (and this is me, not my wife) is that they eat anything, even their own kind, but when it comes to sex, they're so selective, and not only that, they somehow manage to find enough women that meet their standard in a village like Enoch (and maybe even another small villages in the area)

Ganishka would similarly have to impregnate the women somehow unless you think they were just all pregnant when he found them. Women selected for sex being physically attractive? Gee, that's an odd coincidence.

Are you saying that Ganishka impregnated all those women? Every single one of them? This is an honest question because I don't remember if that was established. If he did, then it does make sense that they only got him attractive women, absolutely. If not, I don't think it would be hard to find men interested in getting the job done, even if the women involved were less than attractive.

Yeah, they were probably empowered type-A militant feminists with self-involved agendas.

Who's being a smart ass now?

Anyway, I'm not saying they were forced there, but the folks in charge probably weren't inviting the ugliest women in town to their fuck ritual either.

And again, I find it surprising that they would be able to convince enough attractive women.

I thought she only read to 23, so you're the one talking about Daka and Trolls with me, unless she skipped ahead just to scrutinize the tits there too.

Yes, she has only read up to 23, but I can confidently say that she will feel the same about the scenes with the trolls and the Daka once she gets there.

I wanted to refrain from bringing her into it personally if she's not here to argue. But yeah yeah yeah, this is of course an issue I can't possibly understand because I'm a man,

She didn't say that, it was actually me. I was only speculating and I only did it because I myself hadn't heard the opinions of other women. Now I know that women in general do not share my wife's opinion.

or maybe because when I read the story I'm not actually going through it focusing on the naked people and counting perky breasts, but rather judging it on its substance, not my body issues (which isn't one of the major themes).

I don't think she goes through the story focusing on the naked people, as you put it.
 
As for her appreciation of the story, if this is what she reads into it and takes away from it, if these are her deep and most important insights that must be shared first and foremost, if she can't give it the benefit of the doubt and appreciate it otherwise, then big loss. Tell her to stop reading it.

I said that this issue does have an impact on her apprecitaion of the story, not that she can't appreciate the story at all because of this.

Also, you said you wanted women's opinions, so why don't you address Lith's posts then? They probably have the best perspective in here.

When I posted my previous reply, Lithrael had only posted once, and then she agreed with Aazealh in that men doing bad things were depicted as ugly men for effect. I don't have a problem with that so I felt no need to reply.


As to a woman's appreciation of the story, well.  Any girl who likes to read comics is already WAY WAY WAY WAY over the 'too many hot ladies' thing.  Sadly it takes a lot of motivation to draw frumpy naked women and the few artists that do it well tend to end up way over there in the unshaven insane borderline unreadable category (much as I love Sam Keith). 

Hm all this reminds me of the endless discussions about the looks of females in video games. Mostly they are started by angry feminists. ::)

Yeah, video game women are straight up eye candy.  What ya gonna do.  If you want hot oiled men you gotta go for the genres where beefcake brings cash.  Honestly the mainstream comics industry, along with the fantasy-action film genre, are just about the only ostensibly straight-male audience places you can find hot nearly naked guys by the assload.

My wife doesn't really read comics and she doesn't really play video games either.



The majority of Berserk readers are men so what's wrong with good looking women? Besides this Berserk is a fantasy manga and no realistic nude painting.

I don't see what the problem is. I'm a girl and I like reading mangas with hot chicks and muscular guys. (No fat chicks/guys.) :mozgus: Hahaha jk, anyways it's not like Miura is the only one drawing women this way, tons of artist do it. It's best to leave this subject alone since it's going nowhere. Miura is only drawing what the people want to see that's all. :griffnotevil:

Snark aside, it's the inclusion of women as real characters that interests me.  And within its setting, I think Berserk does that extremely well.  What they look like naked doesn't enter into it.

Thank you for your opinions, my wife and I appreciate hearing from other women.


Being disappointed over this seems more akin to not liking a certain style.  This huge argument to me all boils down to an artist who likes portraying women in a certain manner.  Maybe Miura likes drawing women with tone abs and large backsides.  Frank Frazetta did exactly the same thing.  Not because he was sexist, but because he simply enjoyed that shape in women.

I didn't mean to say tha Mr. Miura is sexist, and I don't think my wife thinks so either.


The lack of body hair in Berserk, now that's a significant issue.  Do you expect me to believe every single one of those medieval women are shaving their pits on a regular basis? 

Has your wife noticed how men have no nipples in Berserk? It's almost like they're not real men from the real world. Also, what about body hair? All those guys (and girls!) are so glabrous... Not realistic at all! It's almost like this is a fantasy story whose purpose isn't to represent a statistically accurate sample of the real world's population, but to tell an entertaining tale. What a disgrace! Reminds me of all those movies and TV series that don't feature enough fat and/or ugly people... How unrepresentative of real life!

Of course the facts that men don't have nipples, women have no hair and naked women are attractive are Mr. Miura's decisions to make. It's his universe and his rules. It's just that the author's choice to represent naked women the way he does is not really what my wife expected, based on the expectations she formed from reading the story. She expected better from a great artist based on what better means to her.

Anyway, we just wanted to put it out there to see what other people thought and we can see that most people think very, very differently.



Offline Griffith

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2010, 08:51:51 PM »
I know trolls are not only interested in procreation, that is clear. What I don't quite understand (and this is me, not my wife) is that they eat anything, even their own kind, but when it comes to sex, they're so selective, and not only that, they somehow manage to find enough women that meet their standard in a village like Enoch (and maybe even another small villages in the area)

As has also been pointed out, most of the villagers were attractive. As a matter of fact, by default, most of the people in Berserk tend to be attractive and shapely except when they're meant not to be.

Are you saying that Ganishka impregnated all those women? Every single one of them? This is an honest question because I don't remember if that was established. If he did, then it does make sense that they only got him attractive women, absolutely. If not, I don't think it would be hard to find men interested in getting the job done, even if the women involved were less than attractive.

There's no way to know, but the point was these aren't random samplings of women as you're portraying it either, another reason why they would have a certain type.

Who's being a smart ass now?

I have to give as good as I get at least. =)

And again, I find it surprising that they would be able to convince enough attractive women.

More hearsay, it was a huge refugee population and it's not like we're talking thousands of people in that cave. I could say I'm surprised there weren't more and it would be no less meaningless.

Yes, she has only read up to 23, but I can confidently say that she will feel the same about the scenes with the trolls and the Daka once she gets there.

I'm sure, I'll go a step further and say she probably felt this way about the first 23 volumes before reading them too. =)

I don't think she goes through the story focusing on the naked people, as you put it.

There's a disparity in her commentary between nude men and women and the other 98% of Berserk.
 
I said that this issue does have an impact on her apprecitaion of the story, not that she can't appreciate the story at all because of this.

Well, then I hope she'll take our points into consideration and see that there isn't necessarily something nefarious going on. Again, give it the benefit of the doubt.

When I posted my previous reply, Lithrael had only posted once, and then she agreed with Aazealh in that men doing bad things were depicted as ugly men for effect. I don't have a problem with that so I felt no need to reply.

You can go ahead and include me in that camp as well, and I'll add that the same goes for making innocent victims attractive, whether they be men, women or children (there weren't any fat, ugly Kushan children on the docks of Vritannis for example), amplified further by the repetition required when drawing large groups (in this case young healthy Midland women). Anyway, it would be good faith to acknowledge our convincing points in addition to the ones you have a problem with.

Of course the facts that men don't have nipples, women have no hair and naked women are attractive are Mr. Miura's decisions to make. It's his universe and his rules. It's just that the author's choice to represent naked women the way he does is not really what my wife expected, based on the expectations she formed from reading the story.

Her expectations have double standards themselves, ignoring other irregularities and inconsistencies and fastening on this alone. At least, that's all we've been presented.

I didn't mean to say tha Mr. Miura is sexist, and I don't think my wife thinks so either.

Alright, but your line of questions, and resistance to some answers, insinuates otherwise; and it's an insinuation I take seriously, though I may question the veracity and significance of it considering we're talking about dozens of pages, out of context, among thousands. Finishing up the point, it's no more sexist than it is racist for the lack of women of color, but I'm sure someone could see it that way if they were attuned to that.

She expected better from a great artist based on what better means to her.

I'm sure it's hard for anything to live up to the view from up on Mt. Pious. :griffnotevil:


UPDATE: I was a Utah Jazz fan tonight! :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2010, 08:55:39 PM »
I see. What I was trying to say here is that the effect of a poor nutrition should be reflected in a woman's breasts.

Ah so that is you and your wife's point. I see.

Now as far as all these women in all these examples having poor nutrition, well that's not necessarily an established fact. Similarly, I'm not sure whether poor nutrition should be reflected in breast size to a significant enough level that it would show in those scenes. And lastly, the exact effects of poor nutrition in the Berserk world are unknown to us at this time. So I'm afraid I'm not convinced by what you're trying to say.

I think there are more in the background awaiting their horrible fate, but I guess it doesn't make a difference.

There's a few more who are silhouetted, but we can't precisely assess the size of their breasts, so I'm afraid they're of no use to your highly rigorous demonstration here. If anything though, their breasts look smallish. Take a look:



I'm guessing obese women wouldn't have fit through the hole in which they were plunged. Not to mention that captivity could have resulted in weight loss.

What I mant to say here is that there are differences in the people that live in the world of Berserk. We have seen young people, old people, ugly people, good looking people, overweight people, skinny people and so on, and yet when it comes to the people shown naked, while the men depicted do have differences, i.e, we see muscular men, skinny men, chubby men, taller men, shorter men, ugly men, better looking men, plain men; the women depicted tend to be young and on the better looking side a lot more.

But the problem is that your claim is unsubstantiated in the specific context in which you are presenting it. If you look at how armies are depicted in large scale battles, well the soldiers tend to all look alike. That's because the scenes in question don't require them to have distinct features. That's why I told you pictures would be needed to prove your point about the variety of naked men in the story. Those who stand out have a specific purpose and were created to fulfill it. There are little to no shots of nondescript groups of naked men in the story, like I said in a previous post. So I don't find the comparison to be all that appropriate in the first place.

I know trolls are not only interested in procreation

Aren't they? And wouldn't they, being interested in reproduction, select young, healthy hosts for their parasitic offspring? Seems like the most natural course of action to me.

Are you saying that Ganishka impregnated all those women? Every single one of them? This is an honest question because I don't remember if that was established. If he did, then it does make sense that they only got him attractive women, absolutely. If not, I don't think it would be hard to find men interested in getting the job done, even if the women involved were less than attractive.

You don't think it would be hard? Is that based on anything? Do you think the soldiers rounding up women to be raped would choose the old, fat ones? Does that seem to be a sensible course of action to you?

And again, I find it surprising that they would be able to convince enough attractive women.

Why? 50 women out of all the people gathered around Albion isn't that many. And while we can see there's about 50 of them in the big shot introducing the event, we don't get to see that many of them up close. Maybe the others had breasts that meet your wife's criteria of ugliness. Also, while we're on the topic of "convincing" people to participate to the orgy, I'd like to remind you that Slan had her hand in it. So really, no scientific explanation is required as to how people got involved and why. It's like saying you find it surprising that a plague could hit Midland that hard in the time span it did based on your impressions of Midland's geographical setting and trade routes.

I didn't mean to say tha Mr. Miura is sexist, and I don't think my wife thinks so either.

I have to admit I honestly wonder what you are trying to say though.

Of course the facts that men don't have nipples, women have no hair and naked women are attractive are Mr. Miura's decisions to make. It's his universe and his rules. It's just that the author's choice to represent naked women the way he does is not really what my wife expected, based on the expectations she formed from reading the story. She expected better from a great artist based on what better means to her.

To her a greater artist would have shown obese, hairy legged crones with asymmetric breasts instead. Duly noted.

P.S. Speaking of asymmetry:


Offline D0dole

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2010, 11:52:54 PM »
Hmm... as a bearer of the X chromosome, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

Firstly, I don't feel like anyone should make a big deal out of Miura's artistic choices in berserk. I think that in the case of the trolls and the uhm... demon soldier moms, women were mostly depicted  the way they were to illustrate the fact that they were all young women. The body types you find to be missing (more body fat, saggy boobs, etc) might just have been visually useless in these cases, and maybe even misleading.

Also, after thinking about it for a while, I can recall a few situations where we saw chubbier, less attractive types of women. In Jill's village, to start. Her mother wasn't exactly a beauty. Lanky and streched facial features. In the same village, after Guts set fire to the barn, there was middle aged and kinda chubby woman pointing her finger at him, accusing him of mistreating the kid he used to lure the fake elves into said barn. In the same village, there was an awfully old woman (the one that tried to smack Guts' head with a farming tool or something). At Albion I'm pretty sure we also saw older women, and even some yougner ones who looks awfully stretched and exhausted.

Also, that part where we saw Sonia for the first time, when Griffith arrived to save the day at some random Midland city. Amongst the tied-up women that were talking, I recall that most of them weren't exactly beauties, and at least one of the wasn't what I'd call slim.

I think the reason one would expect to see more varied and "unpretty" body shapes in women in berserk is due to the fact that Miura does it for men. And note that many artists chose not to bother with either, sticking with the same generic or good looking body types all the time. I wouldn't mind it much if I was you (or your wife), note that berserk IS aimed mainly at boys and men. And for a series that's getting published in a magazine that often sports girls in their underwear on the cover (from what I think I saw), Miura is pretty damn partial with the way he handles human bodies in general.

One thing I'll give to you though, I did notice (but did not mind too much) in the series the very round and rather sizeable boobs in general. The only example I seriously noticed though was how Serpico's mother, who had been ill for years, who was all bones and crazed and was getting pretty old at the end, still seemed to have an amazing rack popping through her robe right before she was burned at the stake. This being said, I'd still rather have Miura spend his time figuring how to draw Guts in badass fightings poses, to draw beautiful gowns, architectures, lansdcapes and INSANE ships and armies than spend time on bringing a variety of shapes and elasticity to the breasts of the women of berserk. I mean, I think we can all agree that the guy's working hard already, give him a break and let him enjoy drawing tatas the way he wants to.

Another little point that other people covered already; the story of berserk is set in a very medieval-like era. It's not supprising to see many petite, thin women, ESPECIALLY young women. I mean, I think in Luca's prostitute band (although they were all rather pretty) they all had different body types. Lucie looked a bit lanky, Pepe was like 4' high and uhm.. Huguette or something? Short black haired girl. She still seemed to have a baby-fat face and to be a bit stouter that the other girls.

Basically... I understand what your wife sees and what you're trying to say, but compared to all that berserk had to offer, I feel like we're just picking at something of low relevance here, and I really wouldn't like anyone to pass on or give up on this masterpiece because of something that's, in the end, so secondary on the whole.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 12:15:07 AM by D0dole »
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2010, 12:12:43 AM »
Also, after thinking about it for a while, I can recall a few situations where we saw chubbier, less attractive types of women. In Jill's village, to start. Her mother wasn't exactly a beauty. Lanky and streched facial features. In the same village, after Guts set fire to the barn, there was middle aged and kinda chubby woman pointing her finger at him, accusing him of mistreating the kid he used to lure the fake elves into said barn. In the same village, there was an awfully old woman (the one that tried to smack Guts' head with a farming tool or something). At Albion I'm pretty sure we also saw older women, and even some yougner ones who looks awfully stretched and exhausted.

There are many ugly women in the story, but m specifically wants naked ones. And it doesn't suffice that they have an ugly face (because again, there are quite a few of those), but they have to have saggy breasts or be fat or old. Quite specific.

note that berserk IS aimed mainly at boys and men. And for a series that's getting published in a magazine that often sports girls in their underwear on the cover (from what I think I saw), Miura is pretty damn partial with the way he handles human bodies in general.

Young Animal is a seinen magazine, which means its audience is young men (not boys). It's common for magazines of that type to feature models on their cover. That has obviously no impact on what's in the manga.

Offline D0dole

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2010, 12:27:19 AM »
Young Animal is a seinen magazine, which means its audience is young men (not boys). It's common for magazines of that type to feature models on their cover. That has obviously no impact on what's in the manga.

Ah, yes. Fixed that.

I never claimed that the cover impacted the content, what I tried to say was that beside the hot models on the cover, most women in berserk aren't THAT abnormally attractive. (Although we're comparing real life women to drawn ones here... not sure if my point is valid.)
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Offline Irvine

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2010, 09:16:41 AM »
Quote
most women in berserk aren't THAT abnormally attractive.

That's true. The first time I read Berserk I was surprised how "normal" women in Berserk look (besides :slan:). I was expecting something like this:

I thought because of the sexual contents, the YA covers and that Berserk is aimed at young men this manga must be full of overly attractive women. If this were the case I could somewhat understand the opinion of m's wife.

Quote
beside the hot models on the cover
Without photoshop they aren't that hot.  ;)

« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 09:45:53 AM by Irvine »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2010, 09:18:59 AM »
beside the hot models on the cover, most women in berserk aren't THAT abnormally attractive.

I think you worded that wrong, because the models on the covers of Young Animal aren't related to Berserk at all (nor are the many other manga prepublished in the magazine).

Offline Staralfur

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2010, 04:15:19 PM »
That's true. The first time I read Berserk I was surprised how "normal" women in Berserk look (besides :slan:).



Yeah, but even Slan looks pretty normal (well, except for the wings and hair, obviously), I mean she is definitely hotter than the average woman, but her body shape is realistic, and she doesn't give the impression that plastic surgery has already been invented in the world of Berserk. :iva:

And concerning the nude women being shockingly normal-looking, well, I did notice that all the women gathered by Ganishka in Wyndham looked the same (blond, thin, etc), but it seemed obvious to me that they were not important  enough characters to bother spending time and reflexion putting more variety of shapes and colors in that crowd. I mean, the only information we need is that they're midlanders, young enough to get pregnant, and scared. And compared to how many and unimportant they are as individuals, I think they're still drawn in a lot of detail, and I am grateful to Miura for the care he puts in his work, even for such minimal things.
Other than that, I never missed the lack of ugly naked ladies. Actually it's such a non issue to me that I didn't notice it!

Ah, but now that I think about it, the only pair of breasts that really caught my attention is Casca's, though it's a special case since she's a main character. At first her breasts were small and firm, then they got a lot bigger in volume 11 (because she was pregnant, I suppose), and when we see her naked in volume 23, her breasts have gotten a little bit saggy, it seems. Anyway, nothing unusual here. Actually it's the kind of realistic detail that I appreciate in Berserk! :rakshas: ( :farnese: )


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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2010, 07:02:19 PM »
Saggy Boobs: The Thread.  :schierke:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline m

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 07:14:22 PM »
Anyway, it would be good faith to acknowledge our convincing points in addition to the ones you have a problem with.

I aknowledge this convincing point of yours. Even more, allow me to retroactively aknowledge all of yours and everybody else's previous convincing points. I'm serious.

Now as far as all these women in all these examples having poor nutrition, well that's not necessarily an established fact.

True, but wasn't it established that getting food at the camp in Albion wasn't exactly easy? Also, the people in Enoch village were struggling to get by as well. I think that it's not too far-fetched to think that the people in these two cases were not eating well.

Similarly, I'm not sure whether poor nutrition should be reflected in breast size to a significant enough level that it would show in those scenes.

And I'm not sure it shouldn't be.

And lastly, the exact effects of poor nutrition in the Berserk world are unknown to us at this time. So I'm afraid I'm not convinced by what you're trying to say.

Well, I think we've seen some people that are not eating well and it is reflected in their faces and their bodies, there is not that much fat left in them, an example of this is the baby presented to Mozgus, so I think I can assume that a poor nutrition would lead to the body cosuming the fat.

I'm guessing obese women wouldn't have fit through the hole in which they were plunged.

Is this a serious statement? It's an honest question because I'm not sure.

Not to mention that captivity could have resulted in weight loss.

If you say that a poor nutrition wouldn't be reflected in breast size in a significant enough level, why would you think that captivity would lead to a noticeable weight loss?


Aren't they? And wouldn't they, being interested in reproduction, select young, healthy hosts for their parasitic offspring? Seems like the most natural course of action to me.

I clearly said that they are NOT ONLY interested in procreation and they aren't. And, by the same token, wouldn't it be more effective to just impregnate as many women as possible? The sheer numbers would guarantee the survival of more of their offspring. Also, those that wouldn't survive could be used as food so it would be a double benefit.

You don't think it would be hard? Is that based on anything? Do you think the soldiers rounding up women to be raped would choose the old, fat ones? Does that seem to be a sensible course of action to you?

Yes I think it's based on something: we have seen that men in Berserk are interested in sex to the point that they would rape just to get some. So if you present a bunch of women to your possibly sex deprived soldiers (or even prisoners if there are enough females to be impregnated), while I don't deny that many would probably like to get the more attractive ones, I also believe that there would be plenty that just wouldn't care.

Also, while we're on the topic of "convincing" people to participate to the orgy, I'd like to remind you that Slan had her hand in it. So really, no scientific explanation is required as to how people got involved and why.

True, but perhaps Slan didn't have a hand in the other scenes where naked women are presented. I'm not sure.

Alright, but your line of questions, and resistance to some answers, insinuates otherwise; and it's an insinuation I take seriously

I have to admit I honestly wonder what you are trying to say though.

I need to stress the fact that it was never my intention, not by a long shot, to say that Mr. Miura is sexist. I can see why what I've said and how I've said could be taken that way, but that is my problem for being incapable of accurately conveying my thoughts. As I said, that was not my intention at all, in fact, that thought has never, ever crossed my mind.

Offline Irvine

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2010, 07:54:16 PM »
Are we seriously talking about the breast size of background characters and how this depends on nutrition?  :isidro: Miura would laugh his ass of.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2010, 09:05:17 PM »
True, but wasn't it established that getting food at the camp in Albion wasn't exactly easy?

That doesn't really affect my point. The word nutrition has more than one meaning, and I assumed you meant "poor nutrition" in its strictest sense: nutrient deficiency. None of the naked women depicted in the cases you mentioned were visibly starving, if that's what you were clumsily trying to say.

Also, the people in Enoch village were struggling to get by as well. I think that it's not too far-fetched to think that the people in these two cases were not eating well.

They looked healthy enough to me. And to you as well, as you've said a few times (with their "healthy breasts").

And I'm not sure it shouldn't be.

But you have nothing to back up any of what you're saying, and by default the fact it appears the way it does in the manga is overwhelmingly in favor of what I'm saying. Sorry.

Well, I think we've seen some people that are not eating well and it is reflected in their faces and their bodies, there is not that much fat left in them, an example of this is the baby presented to Mozgus, so I think I can assume that a poor nutrition would lead to the body cosuming the fat.

But to what extent we can't assess, and since the women we're talking about didn't have sunken cheeks or bodies that showed any signs of serious starvation (it's not hard to find pictures for reference if you need to compare), we can reasonably assume that they had no such problems. I'm sure being a part of the cult had its benefits. That broth with whole children in it must have been nutritious I guess? Interestingly enough, there are actually historical precedents to people eating children during times of famine.

Is this a serious statement? It's an honest question because I'm not sure.

Only half-serious I guess, like all of my posts in this ridiculous thread, but it still completely obliterates any objections you might have had as to why we didn't see a fat woman being used to create Daka. I'm humoring you here; you should be grateful.

If you say that a poor nutrition wouldn't be reflected in breast size in a significant enough level, why would you think that captivity would lead to a noticeable weight loss?

Poor nutrition and a strict diet are very different things, as you should know. Being lithe is not the result of "poor nutrition".

I clearly said that they are NOT ONLY interested in procreation and they aren't.

I don't care what you said. What's the ground on which you base your assertion that they weren't only interested in reproduction as far as these women were concerned? That's right, you have none. Don't forget your place.

And, by the same token, wouldn't it be more effective to just impregnate as many women as possible? The sheer numbers would guarantee the survival of more of their offspring. Also, those that wouldn't survive could be used as food so it would be a double benefit.

Not necessarily actually. We're clearly shown that not all inoculations were successful, as a troll threw a corpse away that hadn't led to anything (that corpse was pretty skinny, sported an ugly belly and had small breasts by the way, I think you should acknowledge it). So clearly, wasting their time with unsatisfactory subjects would have been useless. As for food, they had children, and they'd already raided the farm animals recently. Besides, they had been raiding Enoch for a while and would have likely continued to do so had Guts and co. not intervened, so it was useless to encumber themselves anymore than they had already.

Yes I think it's based on something: we have seen that men in Berserk are interested in sex to the point that they would rape just to get some.

Excuse me but I don't see how that impacts what I said in any way. When have we seen that men in Berserk were willing to rape old, fat ladies with sagging breasts? I mean what you're saying goes against the very existence of this thread, I hope you're aware of that. But anyway, as far as we can tell, no, the men in Berserk wouldn't deliberately choose old/fat/deformed women instead of pretty ones if they had the choice (some of those were real ugly though, I think it's important to mention it, despite the fact you're only interested in body shapes). The evidence is in the scenes that are in the manga. There's nothing to argue about here. Also, please note that they rounded up the women that were most fit for pregnancy, which means they had to stick to young ones anyway.

So if you present a bunch of women to your possibly sex deprived soldiers (or even prisoners if there are enough females to be impregnated), while I don't deny that many would probably like to get the more attractive ones, I also believe that there would be plenty that just wouldn't care.

My personal knowledge of historical events of rape of civilians by the Japanese military before and during World War 2 tends to disprove that notion. But anyway, as I mentioned, some of them were pretty ugly. In any case, you cannot make a convincing point that soldiers would choose unattractive women over attractive ones if they had the choice (which they did).

True, but perhaps Slan didn't have a hand in the other scenes where naked women are presented. I'm not sure.

If you think very hard I believe you'll be able to realize that she definitely had a hand in what took place in the Qliphoth.

I need to stress the fact that it was never my intention, not by a long shot, to say that Mr. Miura is sexist. I can see why what I've said and how I've said could be taken that way, but that is my problem for being incapable of accurately conveying my thoughts. As I said, that was not my intention at all, in fact, that thought has never, ever crossed my mind.

But what are you trying to say? That's my question.

Are we seriously talking about the breast size of background characters and how this depends on nutrition?  :isidro: Miura would laugh his ass of.

I hope he wouldn't be ashamed of his fans. Because I know I would be if he read that thread.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2010, 10:58:36 PM »
Hahah, this thread is gold. : )

When I said Miura doesn't mean to be sexist I didn't mean to imply that you were saying he was.  I can see that you're more concerned with the consistency or how women are represented in an unrealistic light.  But yeah, I think delving too much into this isn't going to go anywhere.  You could argue forever about how different locations do or don't have sufficient nutrition.  But that's like looking at the Mona Lisa and saying the frame is too nice.   :carcus:

I too am curious what your point is, if you could simplify your critique into a sentence or two it might be easier to understand it's validity.  What would you do to fix it? Give more women a saggy pair?

Offline D0dole

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2010, 01:51:22 AM »
Without photoshop they aren't that hot.  ;)

Haha absolutely, but in the end, what we get to see is that final photoshopped photo.

I think you worded that wrong, because the models on the covers of Young Animal aren't related to Berserk at all (nor are the many other manga prepublished in the magazine).

Oh, maybe? I don't understand where I implied that they were related, I was trying to make a comparison. (The very idealised models on the covers vs. Miura-drawn girls) But as I said, seeing as they're drawn I'm not sure if this point is even valid.

Just saying, I don't think Miura idealizes female bodies all that much compared to what appears to be the current standards of beauty/whatever's attractive.
ROLO POPS. They are delishuss.

Offline Eluvei

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2010, 03:37:33 AM »
Well, what do you know, while there are monsters brutally mass raping women, some people prefer to pay attention to the shape of their breasts.

I was planning to make a thread dedicated to the funny fat fuckers that Miura likes to draw sometimes, like that little dude that's always with the Captain (Fat Pirate) and old Foss, but this is much better. A boob thread!

:troll: :troll:

Offline Griffith

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2010, 03:48:49 AM »
I was planning to make a thread dedicated to the funny fat fuckers that Miura likes to draw sometimes, like that little dude that's always with the Captain (Fat Pirate) and old Foss, but this is much better. A boob thread!

Allow me to balance the scales by posting a collage of Guts' dong throughout the series:


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2010, 08:44:58 AM »
Oh, maybe? I don't understand where I implied that they were related, I was trying to make a comparison.

"Beside" can mean both "compared to" and "except for".

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Offline m

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2010, 06:03:03 PM »
I don't care what you said. What's the ground on which you base your assertion that they weren't only interested in reproduction as far as these women were concerned? That's right, you have none. Don't forget your place.

I actually do have a reason why I believe trolls weren't only interested in reproduction as far as these women are concerned, or in general for that matter: one troll is seen getting oral sex from one of the women, or at least that's what I think a troll was doing in one shot where there are a few trolls raping women, unless my mind is just dirty and I misunderstood the picture.

Griffith may have also said something along those lines

like humans, the trolls didn't seem fundamentally interested in only procreation.

On a side note, you must really be fed up with me and this thread, to not give me a chance to give my reasoning before shutting the door and putting me in my place. I know, it's my own fault.

So clearly, wasting their time with unsatisfactory subjects would have been useless.

But if trolls are not only interested in procreation it's not an abosulte waste of time even if the act doesn't result in an offspring.

Interestingly enough, there are actually historical precedents to people eating children during times of famine.

My personal knowledge of historical events of rape of civilians by the Japanese military before and during World War 2 tends to disprove that notion.

I want to say something about the quotes above but I can't really come up with the right way of saying it, so I'll probably en up saying something stupid that may come across as inflammatory while that's not my intention, so plase bear with me for a little bit longer.

The first sentence was just for information, right?

As for the second one, where in the story of Berserk was it established that the Kushan army behaved like the Japanese military during World War 2 in this particular case? Why would have they presented such a specific behavior? Perhaps you're trying to say that you know Mr Miura so well, from his work or otherwise, that you can confidently say this is the case?

In any case, you cannot make a convincing point that soldiers would choose unattractive women over attractive ones if they had the choice (which they did).

Perhaps I can't but I still believe that there would be plenty of men who just wouldn't care

But what are you trying to say? That's my question.

I too am curious what your point is, if you could simplify your critique into a sentence or two it might be easier to understand it's validity.  What would you do to fix it? Give more women a saggy pair?

I'll ty to do what Aphasia suggests.

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think that all the scenes in which women are depicted naked require, or even benefit from, having only women that to me are on the better looking side of the spectrum; especially when clothed women in the world of Berserk in my opinion do cover a wider range. However, I really don't mean that they are drawn the way they are because Mr. Miura is sexist.

I hope he wouldn't be ashamed of his fans. Because I know I would be if he read that thread.

If this thread is shameful to you I humbly and sincerely ask you to please delete it.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2010, 06:37:51 PM »
I'll ty to do what Aphasia suggests.

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think that all the scenes in which women are depicted naked require, or even benefit from, having only women that to me are on the better looking side of the spectrum; especially when clothed women in the world of Berserk in my opinion do cover a wider range. However, I really don't mean that they are drawn the way they are because Mr. Miura is sexist.

If this thread is shameful to you I humbly and sincerely ask you to please delete it.

I wouldn't call it shameful, but I would say it's missing the point (the story).  If I were Miura, I would rather my fans focus on the story and characters rather than something that ultimately has little impact.  It's also possible he would graciously accept the critique.  It's not like his artwork has gone without judgement throughout his career.

I think you make a valid observation.  Many of the naked women look more similar to each other than the men do.  If you were accusing him of being sexist that would be a different argument, but as it stands it's simply matter of taste, and Miura's style.  For me personally, the issue of a women's size and overall health has little impact on the story, or anything else valuable I take from Berserk.  

You should be thankful the women have functional armor Hahah.  Look at queen's blade, for instance. ; ) There are far worse cases out there.  

Also...remember Serpico's mother? Wow, that lady had some serious ribs going on.  She was about as ill nutritioned as you can get for a women.  Withered, old, skinny and scarred.  I'll post some references when I get home.

@Griffith

Thanks for making me almost spit my drink out.  :ganishka:



Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2010, 07:06:17 PM »
I actually do have a reason why I believe trolls weren't only interested in reproduction as far as these women are concerned, or in general for that matter: one troll is seen getting oral sex from one of the women, or at least that's what I think a troll was doing in one shot where there are a few trolls raping women, unless my mind is just dirty and I misunderstood the picture.

Putting aside your own uncertainty of what you're basing your reasoning on and how it is inconclusive, I'd like to remind you that trolls aren't humans, and that they don't reproduce like humans do. There's no reason to believe their parasitic offsprings couldn't develop outside of the uterus, even though I imagine it is the best suited location. Of course, with the Qliphoth being Slan's lair, it's more than likely there was a lust aspect to the endeavour as well, but then again, that goes together hand in hand with reproduction in this case. Anyway, if the trolls cared whether or not the women they captured were attractive, which is what you've been saying, then there are no qualms for you to have with that scene in the first place.

On a side note, you must really be fed up with me and this thread, to not give me a chance to give my reasoning before shutting the door and putting me in my place. I know, it's my own fault.

I think you've been given more than enough chances already.

But if trolls are not only interested in procreation it's not an abosulte waste of time even if the act doesn't result in an offspring.

If they are not only interested in procreation, then they logically choose victims who fit their fancy (i.e. not the ones whose absence on screen you've been complaining about).

The first sentence was just for information, right?

Yeah, as was the second one.

As for the second one, where in the story of Berserk was it established that the Kushan army behaved like the Japanese military during World War 2 in this particular case? Why would have they presented such a specific behavior? Perhaps you're trying to say that you know Mr Miura so well, from his work or otherwise, that you can confidently say this is the case?

No, I'm saying there's a precedent for it in our world (more than one actually, I just gave you the first example that came to mind, as well as the one that's best documented) aside from the fact it's common sense for a soldier to choose a woman he finds attractive if he knows he's going to have sex with her afterwards. I'm essentially piling up evidence on top of logic here in the face of your groundless, senseless allegations.

Perhaps I can't but I still believe that there would be plenty of men who just wouldn't care

Well clearly you can't since you aren't. No use for "perhaps" here. You can't, you haven't and you won't. And anyway we've already seen what the Kushans did in the manga, so there's nothing to discuss in the first place.

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think that all the scenes in which women are depicted naked require, or even benefit from, having only women that to me are on the better looking side of the spectrum; especially when clothed women in the world of Berserk in my opinion do cover a wider range.

Aside from the fact that plausible reasons and counterexamples were provided for all scenes mentioned, that all took place in a very specific context, and that your personal definition of attractiveness has been limited to very specific standards here, I'd like to point out that I've already turned the question around to you and gotten no response. I don't think that the scenes in which women are depicted naked require, or would even benefit from, having women that are not on the better looking side of the spectrum in your opinion.

If this thread is shameful to you I humbly and sincerely ask you to please delete it.

Why?

Also...remember Serpico's mother? Wow, that lady had some serious ribs going on.  She was about as ill nutritioned as you can get for a women.  Withered, old, skinny and scarred.

Here's the only profile shot of her we see:



I don't find her breasts overly big in that picture. They look as emaciated as the rest of her. But of course, since we never see her naked she doesn't count.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2010, 07:07:43 PM »
I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think that all the scenes in which women are depicted naked require, or even benefit from, having only women that to me are on the better looking side of the spectrum; especially when clothed women in the world of Berserk in my opinion do cover a wider range.

Well, that would have simplified things. Noted. Anyway, what your thesis is still missing is a reason why. On the other hand, various legitimate reasons exist explaining why it is the way it is and why the story wouldn't actually benefit, internally or externally, from the kind of variation you claim it's lacking. Also, earlier you were claiming it was a trend exclusive to this very specific criteria of nude characters, when that's been shown not to be the case either. So, I have to also stress again what an obvious pet issue this is, clearly lodged in the eye of the beholder, and probably why these reasonable alternatives weren't apparent to begin with. Like I said, one could easily switch the vague and subjective definitions of attractiveness here with something more concrete like race and it would only further highlight the narrow and arbitrary focus of such observations at the expense of the bigger picture. I don't think those scenes would benefit from having token overweight characters, which arguably wouldn't be appropriate anyway, just to appease those overly concerned with such things above all else.