Author Topic: Episode 238  (Read 57166 times)

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Offline dwarfkicker

Re:Episode 238
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2004, 08:07:03 PM »
Quote
Guts left the Hawks because of Casca. Falling in love with Casca was too much for his attachment to his allianation that winter. He wanted to overcome his own allianation by himself and not because of Casca so he left.

Guts didn't leave the hawks because of Casca.  He left because of Griffith.  Because what Griffith said about a friend being his equal.  Guts left to become Griffith's equal, not because he was falling for Casca.  
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 08:11:06 PM by dwarfkicker »

Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2004, 09:00:37 PM »
Guts didn't leave the hawks because of Casca.  He left because of Griffith.  Because what Griffith said about a friend being his equal.  Guts left to become Griffith's equal, not because he was falling for Casca.  Dude, seriously, what story are you reading?

  It's been made clear that Guts left because of Casca even directly from the discussion with Judeau and in fact it makes perfect sense, not only with the natural laws but also with the story. I am not saying that Griffith had no part or importance about how things were, but it was about Casca that he left. From the time she slept with him and saved his life by touching him (remember Guts touching problem), Casca became for Guts what she is. True, it was because of Griffith's orders -and Griffith's leadership was the main pole as the reference of events every time, but Guts' first and most important direct thing was and is Casca.
Maybe you'll understand it with this:
Guts didn't risk his life for him: he just fought side by side with him (first Zoddo encounter). But he was risking his life to protect Casca in the river and forest.

When Guts left to the mountains he wanted to overcome his inner insecurities, so he could assume an equal stand if he was to put himself with Casca. He was thinking he wasn't ready yet. This is because of his past. In fact, Corkus, objectivally speaking was right that Guts was stupid and acting like an ass. But I guess he didn't know his past.
What happened next is that other needs arose that forced Guts in different situations than planned.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 10:10:54 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2004, 09:20:51 PM »
Haven't said to you the last time but cut that attitude with me.
 I have read the story and I know what I am talking about. You want to discuss about it? It's ok.

If that was the case then why do you make so many wacky ass speculations and disregard facts?  :-*
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Offline dwarfkicker

Re:Episode 238
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2004, 09:38:10 PM »
That's funny, I edited my post nearly an hour before you posted a response to it.  How the hell is it that you quoted my original unedited post?  And FYI, I edited the post because I didn't want to come off sounding like a total dick.  

Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2004, 09:46:04 PM »
If that was the case then why do you make so many wacky ass speculations and disregard facts?  :-*

Wacky ass speculations and "disregarded" facts is not the case.
We can discuss polite over-here about it, that's what I am saying, as long as we have will to do so. If we don't and we rather want to flame then these are different terms.
I want to be a good "discussionist". I' ld like to analize points and aspects about the manga but if you come back with a different term attitude you make a mix that could pretty well burst and ruin the whole thread.
If you read something that you don't agree with say so and we can analyze it. I am happy with that.
But don't insult just to pass YOUR point and then come and say: "hey YOU are ruining the thread". It's not fashionable with the terms you are bringing inside.


That's funny, I edited my post nearly an hour before you posted a response to it.  How the hell is it that you quoted my original unedited post?  And FYI, I edited the post because I didn't want to come off sounding like a total dick.  

I have edited mine too to match yours. Lol, these terms are better IMHO.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 09:59:20 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline dwarfkicker

Re:Episode 238
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2004, 09:54:22 PM »
Quote
If you read something that you don't agree with say so and we can analyze it. I am happy with that.

I've attempted to try that with you dude, back in the 237 thread when you brought up the thought of multiple berserk armors.  But my posts kept getting deleted for a grand total of three times.

But anyway, we are in desperate need to get back to the topic at hand.  I wonder when Oliver's gonna pop in with his summary for the new chapter.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 09:55:19 PM by dwarfkicker »

Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2004, 09:58:11 PM »
I've attempted to try that with you dude, back in the 237 thread when you brought up the thought of multiple berserk armors.  But my posts kept getting deleted for a grand total of three times.

I guess that thread had gone out of control. Anyway I suggest to PM each other from now on about stuff irrelevant to the manga if we can avoid typing them in here.  
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2004, 10:13:29 PM »
What night? When he killed the wolves that were going to eat him? Thatís a little arbitrary.

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. When he killed Gambino and was chased away he lost his purpose. Prior to the fight scene, after he had fallen off the cliff and was bathed in the light of the full moon, he was asking where he should go, where he belonged. Then, when the wolves attacked, he was ready to die. It was only his training that saved his life, even he was surpised when it happened. It wasn't his choice at all, but what he had been trained to do. By someone else.

Then as the fight progresses he grabs on to that and the fight itself becomes his purpose, his reason for living.

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I think killing Donovan, a member of his own mercenary troop, in cold blood is a little more important.

Guts shooting Donovan in the mouth and then cutting his tongue to shreds with a sword while shouting, "say it again! I dare you!" gave me the impression that the main reason Guts killed Donovan was because Donovan said Gambino betrayed him. In other words he was still killing *for* Gambino.

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That night is certainly important because he slayed Gambino, but... these are all incidental things after the fact. Contributing factors, but not the origin. Guts' rape, Donovan, Gambino; the next morning, Gambino plays dumb, and Guts doesn't know what to think. The world is no longer black and white, innocence is lost, he smashes the barrel for no reason other than his own pure hatred of his life at that moment. The Beast is born.

The Beast was born when Guts chose to make his life *only* about fighting.

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Yes, but the seeds were planted long before that.I went over the betrayal, but again, Donovan, while just being the rapist, is still important for simply that role. You must be talking about later events ("These events are huge leaps...") than Gambinoís betrayal and Gutsí rape since since I donít think Guts chose any path before that.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was refering to the events you talked about. The events after he is attacked by wolves.

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No, while thatís not a completely unvalid point, Casca would in fact be dead already a few times over if it wasnít for Guts protecting her, which he does, in a very literal, taking a bullet for the president, way. I donít know where you get that spirits wonít hurt Casca, those were isolated incidents where she was under the childís protection, and even then the child sent Guts to save her.

From humans.

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Guts doesnít really need that kind of excuse to fight, and protecting Casca is much harder than just letting himself go in battle. Previously, when he embraced battle over all else, he abandoned Casca, and itís the Beast that proposes he does this again, only a step further; killing her first.

What does Casca want? Does she want protection? Does she want to be cured? So far she's been carted around according to Guts desires. What happens when she regains her own?

He needs the excuse now because he's entered another level of maturity, he can't justify fighting for fighting's sake to himself any more. So he uses Casca. She's still doing the work for him.

Quote
I guess he could kill Casca and that would be something new?

Many stories revolve around a man protecting or sacrificing for a woman, and defining himself through that sacrifice. That is the warrior stage. But that is only a half truth. To progress further a man has to find out what defines him beyond reasons and excuses and other people's choices.  

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Yes, those are clichťd concepts, but they are concepts being directly applied by characters in the story, namely, Flora and Schierke, to describe Gutsí and Cascaís relationship. That doesnít mean Guts specific situation with Casca is just a clichť, but it can be defined under a broader category, like most things. In this case, ďthe better half.Ē

Perhaps cliche isn't the right word. It's Guts current psychological limit that he can't go beyond. And it's the limit that most story tellers can't go beyond either. In other words they write a man up to the point of being a Warrior and then faulter, taking him no further in his development.

Quote
P.S. I don't know that we directly disagree on anything, just that we emphasize different perspectives; or, disagree. ;D

The perspective I'm emphasizing is that Guts is still part way on the road to wherever Miura is taking him. I'm proposing that his next development will be away from defining himself as Casca's protector.

Either that or Miura's stuck in the Warrior stage himself.


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Offline Griffith

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2004, 10:16:04 PM »
I feel you on this one, Xech, I donít totally concur, but I see where youíre coming from. Or, maybe Iím just grateful that you arenít contesting all the wacky stuff I said about the Beast? ^^;

I wonder when Oliver's gonna pop in with his summary for the new chapter.

And Olivier pretty regularly delivers his summaries the Wednesday before the release of the new chapter.

-Griffith

P.S. Ahhhhhhhhh! Typhon responded with a typhoon of arguments! I knew I never should have posted that huge message in the first place. It only begets more! ;D

Edits coming as I sort it all out. =)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 10:20:08 PM by Griffith »

Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2004, 10:24:31 PM »
I don't think it's arbitrary at all. When he killed Gambino and was chased away he lost his purpose. Prior to the fight scene, after he had fallen off the cliff and was bathed in the light of the full moon, he was asking where he should go, where he belonged. Then, when the wolves attacked, he was ready to die. It was only his training that saved his life, even he was surpised when it happened. It wasn't his choice at all, but what he had been trained to do. By someone else.

Then as the fight progresses he grabs on to that and the fight itself becomes his purpose, his reason for living.Guts shooting Donovan in the mouth and then cutting his tongue to shreds with a sword while shouting, "say it again! I dare you!" gave me the impression that the main reason Guts killed Donovan was because Donovan said Gambino betrayed him. In other words he was still killing *for* Gambino.The Beast was born when Guts chose to make his life *only* about fighting. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was refering to the events you talked about. The events after he is attacked by wolves. From humans. What does Casca want? Does she want protection? Does she want to be cured? So far she's been carted around according to Guts desires. What happens when she regains her own?

I think no one can disagree with this. In fact yours and Griffith's (and mine's) points I believe come together in this one. It's the expression that changes only IMHO  ;)


He needs the excuse now because he's entered another level of maturity, he can't justify fighting for fighting's sake to himself any more. So he uses Casca. She's still doing the work for him. Many stories revolve around a man protecting or sacrificing for a woman, and defining himself through that sacrifice. That is the warrior stage. But that is only a half truth. To progress further a man has to find out what defines him beyond reasons and excuses and other people's choices.   Perhaps cliche isn't the right word. It's Guts current psychological limit that he can't go beyond. And it's the limit that most story tellers can't go beyond either. In other words they write a man up to the point of being a Warrior and then faulter, taking him no further in his development. The perspective I'm emphasizing is that Guts is still part way on the road to wherever Miura is taking him. I'm proposing that his next development will be away from defining himself as Casca's protector.

Either that or Miura's stuck in the Warrior stage himself.

Here I disagree. While what you are saying could be true, even in the case it is, it could only be true as an event of Guts' buying time for his maturity to come while he secures Casca for his (maturity) future.
If he didn't care about Casca, he could have left her and go against Griffith. After all Griffith and apostles are demons and he could have a fine excuse other than his personal feelings.
Instead he is staying with Casca.
 
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2004, 10:48:31 PM »
After all Griffith and apostles are demons and he could have a fine excuse other than his personal feelings.
Instead he is staying with Casca.

A Warrior usually fights for those he cares about. Either causes or people, it doesn't matter, the point is that the Warrior stage is about fighting for something, not just fighting.


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Offline Griffith

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2004, 10:56:33 PM »
I don't think it's arbitrary at all. When he killed Gambino and was chased away he lost his purpose. Prior to the fight scene, after he had fallen off the cliff and was bathed in the light of the full moon, he was asking where he should go, where he belonged. Then, when the wolves attacked, he was ready to die. It was only his training that saved his life, even he was surpised when it happened. It wasn't his choice at all, but what he had been trained to do. By someone else.

I realize that youíre right, because we are both actually engaged in totally arbitrary and abstract concepts that are very open to interpretation. I apologize for placing more weight on my dogma than yours. People are selfish after all. =)

Then as the fight progresses he grabs on to that and the fight itself becomes his purpose, his reason for living.Guts shooting Donovan in the mouth and then cutting his tongue to shreds with a sword while shouting, "say it again! I dare you!" gave me the impression that the main reason Guts killed Donovan was because Donovan said Gambino betrayed him. In other words he was still killing *for* Gambino.

Agreed, but Iím emphasizing the act on Guts part, not the importance of Donovan himself. Just his role as victimizer/victim.

The Beast was born when Guts chose to make his life *only* about fighting. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was refering to the events you talked about. The events after he is attacked by wolves.

I donít think our perspectives are necessarily mutually exclusive from one another. When I say the Beast was born by the rape/betrayal Iím simply talking about Gutsí loss of innocence and the birth of his hatred. Very generally speaking, the same kind of ďbeastĒ everyone has inside them when that happens in their life.While I also donít agree with you (seperatly), I think both are arguments are valid and can be observed side by side without contradiction and the need for separation. Like Xech said, these ideas can coexist.

From humans.

Okay, but snowmen arenít human, among other things such as zombie farmers. And the point is those spirits would have killed Casca without the protection of Guts, which was very hard on him and far different from just slipping into pure battle mode (or the beast), which as you said, Guts' lives for. Thus, dreams in which the Beast urges Guts to cast her off and kill her.

What does Casca want? Does she want protection? Does she want to be cured? So far she's been carted around according to Guts desires. What happens when she regains her own?

Thatís the 64 million dollar question.

He needs the excuse now because he's entered another level of maturity, he can't justify fighting for fighting's sake to himself any more. So he uses Casca.

Thatís problematic to say the least if you test it against the Guts/Beast/Casca triangle. Casca so has repeatedly kept the Beast at bay by giving Guts an alternative to the pure combat that he embraced during the Black Swordsman years; abandoning Casca. This is the core of Gutsí internal conflict with himself. Without Casca, Guts would theoretically be at some kind of peace in pure destruction. Thus, the Beastís/his desire to kill Casca. If he's using her, it's not for that.

And Iím not even TOUCHING the last part with a ten foot femm-pole. ^_^;

-Griffith

P.S. Listen to Bleeding Me, Guts is pushing to stay for something better, trust me. ;D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 03:04:46 AM by Griffith »

Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2004, 11:09:29 PM »
A Warrior usually fights for those he cares about. Either causes or people, it doesn't matter, the point is that the Warrior stage is about fighting for something, not just fighting.

That's what my example was intended to tell you. I guess I hadn't been so clear.
When I said:
"After all Griffith and apostles are demons and he could have a fine excuse other than his personal feelings."
I talked about two things to cover you.

The first one is the global one. Apostles and demons pretty much seem a menace to humanity and Guts has a pretty good cause as an excuse to fight about.
In fact I believe this is Skullknight's path: He is fighting GH for a reason like this.

The second one is the vendeta and hate against Griffith. Griffith pretty much betrayed him and Guts could have hated him and desired vengeance for the fallen Hawk comrades.

In fact, pretty much those things have happened and are still happening. Guts is not yet 100% mature. If he was he could be able to control the od of the armour, the beast. But there is still danger as seen in the current chapter.
However the fact that he controlled once the beast and run to his friend's case, running away from battle is not in terms with your point.
Somehow Guts knows that what he wants for his future is peacefull life with Casca. This is the true point of the story but it's not given that it will succeed in time. There are dangers either in the inside (Guts himself till he reaches maturity) and the fiendish perils that haunt his environment. We are following BERSERK to see what the conclusion to this will be I guess  ;)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 11:34:17 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2004, 12:21:01 AM »
Casca so has repeatedly kept the Beast at bay by giving Guts an alternative to the pure combat that he embraced during the Black Swordsman years; abandoning Casca. This is the core of Gutsí internal conflict with himself. Without Casca, Guts would theoretically be at some kind of peace in pure destruction. Thus, the Beastís/his desire to kill Casca. If he's using her, it's not for that.

No, Guts has chosen to keep the Beast at bay because of Casca. Casca hasn't done anything, it always was Guts' decision. He's using her to mask his own desires. Instead of saying, "I'm doing X because I want to," he's saying "I'm doing X for Casca". But what if it's not really *for* Casca. What if it's for himself?

In other words he's using protecting and serving someone else to fill in for finding his own purpose.

As he has in the past. He's been in the Warrior stage twice before after all. Once when serving the crippled Gambino, then a second time when fighting for Griffith's dream, and now a third time, protecting Casca.

What's interesting is that almost immediately after being thrust into the role of Warrior, Guts was rejected by those he sought to serve and protect. (Gambino tried to kill him; Griffith implied that he wasn't his friend.) The symmetry is unmistakable, leading more weight to the speculation that Casca, if she is cured, will reject his quest for vengence, and thus him.

Without that purpose to hang his hat on, will he spiral back into being a Wanderer(Black swordsman)?

Quote
And Iím not even TOUCHING the last part with a ten foot femm-pole. ^_^;

-Griffith

P.S. Listen to Bleeding Me, Guts is pushing to stay for something better, trust me. ;D

Why ever not? It doesn't matter if we don't agree.

After all, Hitler didn't like disagreements.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 12:31:59 AM by QUeeN typhonblue »


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Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2004, 12:32:39 AM »
No, Guts has chosen to keep the Beast at bay because of Casca. Casca hasn't done anything, it always was Guts' decision. He's using her to mask his own desires. Instead of saying, "I'm doing X because I want to," he's saying "I'm doing X for Casca". But what if it's not really *for* Casca. What if it's for himself?

In other words he's using protecting and serving someone else to fill in for finding his own purpose.

You sound like a femminist. Why do men lay with women or vice versa (for their sake or for the other's sake?). It's natural goddamit  ;). It's the way of nature.


As he has in the past. He's been in the Warrior stage twice before after all. Once when serving the crippled Gambino, then a second time when fighting for Griffith's dream, and now a third time, protecting Casca.

What's interesting is that almost immediately after being thrust into the role of Warrior, Guts was rejected by those he sought to serve and protect. (Gambino tried to kill him; Griffith implied that he wasn't his friend.) The symmetry is unmistakable, leading more weight to the speculation that Casca, if she is cured, will reject his quest for vengence, and thus him.

The fact-possibility you are leaving behind is that Guts will reject his quest for vengence. This is where Miura brings the question of the story right now. It has been clear even in the latest chapter(237): Guts will have to drop his desire for vengence for a happy ending to come.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 12:38:17 AM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline Griffith

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2004, 12:55:01 AM »
Typhon, I was going to write a big blahbiddy blah on the nature of choice and all that and how it applies to Casca and Guts. But that's too much like Matrix 2 horseshit, and I don't think I have anything to say compelling enough to change your opinion or vice versa. So, I respectfully agree to disagree with you rather than creating overly elaborate, bad sequels to my original, good post. ;D

After all, Hitler didn't like disagreements.

I'll find out, I'm watching that movie Max tonight.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 03:01:54 AM by Griffith »

Offline roberto999

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2004, 12:56:07 AM »


The first one is the global one. Apostles and demons pretty much seem a menace to humanity and Guts has a pretty good cause as an excuse to fight about.
In fact I believe this is Skullknight's path: He is fighting GH for a reason like this.

The second one is the vendeta and hate against Griffith. Griffith pretty much betrayed him and Guts could have hated him and desired vengeance for the fallen Hawk comrades.


Third and more important point he fights for his life since that mark make him a target. And now he has to  protect Casca too that is in the same situation.
So his choice is not so much if to fight or not Griffith  and his apostles but if to fight a offensive battle ( i.e. actively search for them) or a defensive one (the one he has adopted in the last issues- he fight the apostles that directly menace him or Casca).

Quote
What's interesting is that almost immediately after being thrust into the role of Warrior, Guts was rejected by those he sought to serve and protect. (Gambino tried to kill him; Griffith implied that he wasn't his friend.) The symmetry is unmistakable, leading more weight to the speculation that Casca, if she is cured, will reject his quest for vengence, and thus him.

The relation between Guts and Gambino is little more complicated than that. Guts wanted to see Gambino like his father and so blinded himself to every evidence that Gambino really hated him (that his the reason because when he killed Donovan he dared him to say again that Gambino has sold him.he wanted not to believe it and in fact when Guts did kill Gambino ? Just after he admited that he hated Guts and that indeed he had sold him.  
I don't know when Griffith implied that Guts was not his friend. Indeed it seem to me that he did every effort to convince him of the contrary (If that was true or not of course can be discussed  )

If Casca will be cured she will remember all her comrades that were slain if nothing else , and her honor itself and her self-respect will cry revenge because no leader ( and Casca was the leader of the Hawks) can tolerate that her men are massacred before her eyes                                      
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 01:08:32 AM by roberto999 »
Hey I am reborn

Offline xechnao

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2004, 01:17:47 AM »
Third and more important point he fights for his life since that mark make him a target. And now he has to  protect Casca too that is in the same situation.
So his choice is not so much if to fight or not Griffith  and his apostles but if to fight a offensive battle ( i.e. actively search for them) or a defensive one (the one he has adopted in the last issues- he fight the apostles that directly menace him or Casca).
Yes, in practice it will be something like this. But we were talking about Guts' character the most now. His beast-humanity relation. Typhonblue has tryied to parallel the Beast with Guts' survival instict, warrior instinct and apply that to the whole persona of Guts (or at least it seemed like that to me).
As with Griffith I also agree to disagree  ;D

The relation betwhen Guts and Gambino is little more complicated of that. Guts wanted to see Gambino like his father and so blinded himself to every evidence that Gambino really hated him (that his the reason because when he killed Donovan he dared him to say again that Gambino has sold him.he wanted not to believe it and in fact when Guts did kill Gambino ? Just after he admited that he hated Guts and that indeed he had sold him.  
I don't know when Griffith implied that Guts was not his friend. Indeed it seem to me that he did every effort to convince him of the contrary (If that was true or not of course can be discussed  )

I believe Gambino also hated himself. This happened (or begun) when he lost his wife.

If Casca will be cured she will remember all her comrades that were slain if nothing else , and her honor itself and her self-respect will cry revenge because no leader ( and Casca was the leader of the Hawks) can tollerate that her men are massacred under her eyes                                      

Well I am not sure about that. She was a leader yes, but overthemost she is human. This is enough to make her sad about what happened but maybe also wise enough to seek the more goodwilled human way  ...  will the end be another baby with Guts? LOL
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline Swordsman in Sable

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2004, 02:56:01 AM »
I donít think our perspectives are necessarily mutually exclusive from one another.

Dude, dude. It's not 'are' perspectives, it's OUR perspectives. omgoose so wrong!


Seriously though, I agree with alot of Griffith's and Typhon Blue's theories, the thing is that Griffith emphasizes Guts' desires on the subconscious level, his base processes, and sticks with more direct references. Typhon Blue emphasizes Guts' desires on the conscious level, his higher level processes, and takes a step beyond direct source material, while not stretching it too far. Because of that you guys have different theories since you have separate sources for where Guts' actions come from, though they are two parts of the same whole. Now, I'm not going to touch the subject of how the beast started. I'm just going to give my opinion on some of the more recent stuff.

It's pretty clear, from the urgings of the beast, that Guts' subconscious desire is to find Griffith and kill him. That doesn't please his conscious anymore though after seeing Godo and realizing that revenge isn't a good enough reason to be fighting, so he has a dilemma. By taking Casca and walking away from Griffith and hunting apostles, he has a clear conscious (justification for actions), while his subconscious isn't satasfied (innermost desire), hence beast tries to usurp control of his actions.


The thing I disagree with on Typhon Blue's theory is the idea of Guts using Casca to 'mask his own desires', since before he had his talk with Godo, he was just doing that: fighting, looking for griffith and justifying it as vengeance for Casca and the hawks, sating both sides of his mind. Oh, and also I think you slipped up by not considering the black swordsman era a "warrior" stage as well, since he wasn't just fighting for survival, he did in fact have a purpose (and he even got rejected by Godo for what he was doing, too!) =P But that's trivial.

I also don't think Casca is an excuse to fight or a means of defining as a protector (and by your definition of protector, fighting for someone), since Guts is only on the path to Elfhelm and fighting along the way because Godo's mine was unintentionally destroyed by Zodd. Otherwise, he would have been in the safety of the former elf home from the nightly spirits and could have lived without having to fight for some time. In that, Guts has been trying to move out of the warrior phase ever since he chose to save Casca and stop seeking revenge. He's been fighting since then only because he has no choice, not because he made sure his current course involves fighting along the way. His original goal in Elfhelm wasn't in curing Casca, either, it was just in finding a place where he wouldn't have to fight all the time and where he and Casca could have peace.

Yes, Guts may be using Casca as a means of verifying and defining himself, but his choice was *not* as a warrior, not as having to fight all the time to protect. His goal has been more caretaker than anything, since living in relative safety doesn't include fighting last I knew.

But, of course, all that I just said could be a load of crap since we don't really know what Guts would have done in Godo's mine had it not been destroyed, and he had just been sitting around peacefully for months or years or what have you with Casca, and we don't yet know what he'll do upon reaching Elfhelm. Like you said, he might just spiral back to wanting revenge, with the clear conscious of knowing Casca is in a more secure environment/mental state. Sort of like when he thought Casca would be safe when he left as the Black Swordsman.

Just remember though, Guts doggedly resolved not to leave anyone behind, ever again. On the other hand, at Flora's, he  expressed that he still wanted to destroy God Hand, but at the same time wanted to get rid of his Beherit, so it's tricky. We'll just have to see if he really learns from his mistakes, or if he really doesn't. If he can overcome the beast, or succumb to his innermost desires ;D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 03:06:51 AM by Griffith »
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Offline Griffith

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2004, 03:06:19 AM »
Dude, dude. It's not 'are' perspectives, it's OUR perspectives. omgoose so wrong!

I knew I should have sent it to my publisher before posting it. I mean, what do you mean!? I see evidence of no such mistake anywhere!? ;D

-Griffith

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2004, 03:14:44 AM »
lol :P
Like a pimp on a bicycle, so are the days of our lives.

Offline 6th Angel

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2004, 12:37:57 AM »
Time to go way back to the people talking about the origin of the beast.  I haven't seen anyone mention that Guts was "healed" of his past problems when he was with Casca.  The whole deal where he remembers himself putting the medicine on his nose when he is with her.

I don't like talking about Guts as if he is going through stages, like he has a final destination or is on some great path towards enlightenment.  Couldn't he be doing things for less complex psychological reasons like he still loves Casca despite her condition.

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2004, 12:49:09 AM »
I don't like talking about Guts as if he is going through stages, like he has a final destination or is on some great path towards enlightenment.  Couldn't he be doing things for less complex psychological reasons like he still loves Casca despite her condition.

Agreed, that's exactly why I didn't even want to step in that. ;)

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2004, 01:11:42 AM »
I think the point is that him doing something because he loves Casca is Guts going through stages.  They are one and the same thing.  But there is room to dig in there and look at the situation in detail, if one wants to.  It's a simple thing to say Guts is doing stuff because he loves Casca.... but it's another thing to say that love is simple-- that would be wrong.  

And sure, enlightenment isn't a destination, but that doesn't mean he isn't somehow trying to move to it, or progress personally in some way....

When Guts left the Band of the Hawk to go on his own... that was a him moving into a new stage of his life, for philosophical reasons.  Same thing when he decided to fight for Casca in the cave near Godo's.  These are points in the narrative where his character's motivation changes-- aka moving into another stage.

One question I had though--  what is the stage after the Warrior, QUeeN typhonblue?  Seriously.  I'm curious where you think that is heading.

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Re:Episode 238
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2004, 02:07:51 AM »
Nah.

-Griffith