Author Topic: Niko  (Read 6091 times)

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Offline Griffith

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Niko
« on: August 05, 2001, 09:42:25 PM »
Okay, while attempting to write up an updated version of the Niko FAQ entry and I ran into some trouble.  Namely, I wanted to go into great detail about how he became an Apostle and what not, but all that is left a bit ambiguous.  I’m pretty damn sure how it happened, but it’s still just a theory, no matter how likely.  Here's some backround for those who never played the game (excerpt from the middle of the entry).

"Niko is a gentle and simple-minded soul.  Because Niko was different the other townspeople would mistreat and abuse him, but no matter what his misfortune Niko was still happy just for the gift of life."

Here's the speculation part:

So, when Niko was dying out in front of the church, his love of life and desire to live summoned God Hand.  He sacrificed his dog and wished that everyone was like him (because he feels they aren’t truly happy and being an outcast pains him, perhaps he wished to be like everyone else, lots of implications there).  Hence, he becomes the Mandragora Tree and everyone who comes in contact becomes like Niko (only with a added touch of evil).  So, the Mandragora are akin Roshinu’s children or Zondark rather than being a real disease.

So, what’s everyone else out there think of this idea? Any others?

-Griffith

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Niko
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2001, 09:51:40 PM »
why would he turn into a tree though??
when people turn into apostles they usually are turned into something that has something to do with them, right?
ie; Snake Baron-giant ugly snake thingy, Roshinu-ugly naked moth, Niko-ugly retarded tree...
this making any sense??
so what im basically wondering is what would connect him to the mandragora, or a plant at all...
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Niko
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2001, 10:17:35 PM »
Quote

why would he turn into a tree though??
when people turn into apostles they usually are turned into something that has something to do with them, right?
ie; Snake Baron-giant ugly snake thingy, Roshinu-ugly naked moth, Niko-ugly retarded tree...
this making any sense??
so what im basically wondering is what would connect him to the mandragora, or a plant at all...

Long answer:  Well, I'm sure the Snake Baron's name wasn't really the "Snake Baron".  Why did the Count become a disgusting plant/slug thing? Who the hell knows.  I assume the Apostles get their form and power according to their wish/dream, like the Egg-Apostle.  If Niko’s wish was for everyone to be like him then the Mandragora is what you would get, it's like the Count and Zondark on a world wide scale.  Notice how Eriza’s description of people with Mandragora is almost exactly the same as her decription of Niko?

Short anwer: 'Cause the kids as dumb as a plant. ;D *rimshot*

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Niko
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2001, 02:11:30 AM »
Well trees have always been important mythically and symbolically. Perhaps Niko thought that trees were great because he was out in the forest playing all the time, old trees can seem very friendly and steadfast to a kid (okay, I grew up in the countryside, I love them!). Much like Roshinu's 'elves', something a child liked and wanted to be like. Perhaps Niko wanted to be like a tree, protective, benevolent, to make everyone be happy and carefree like him.

Perhaps that's why the count turned into that slug thing, he might have had a hard time living with what he was doing, and in the end he really did not have the heart to go through with it. He thought himself disgusting and twisted after killing his wife, and so he was...

My thought on this is that the Beherit takes whatever's inside of a person and makes it rude reality, twisted and dark shadows instead of the bright dream they once might have had.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Niko
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2001, 02:59:25 AM »

Quote


My thought on this is that the Beherit takes whatever's inside of a person and makes it rude reality, twisted and dark shadows instead of the bright dream they once might have had.


This makes sense to me. Much in the way that when Griffith wanted Wings, he became Femto, the Wings of Darkness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Niko
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2001, 04:09:52 AM »
I think we can all agree that Niko is in fact a tree, an ugly retarded one at that, but how about some speculation on how it happened?

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Niko
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2001, 04:55:38 AM »
Well... this is speculation (was a while since I played the game) so correct me if I say anything blatantly wrong.

Niko had somehow found a Beherit , probably thought it looked cute in a toy sort of way. Like a pretty rock. Over time he probably grew more and more sad over the fact that not only was he beaten and shunned, he didn't think the rest of the people were happy either. In fact, he probably thought that people were horrible beings, but since he was a good and tender soul, he saw this as a result of their fear and pain. Probably the Nun (have forgotten her name) had something to do with that too, because she always was kind to him and probably told him that it was not his fault that he suffered, but that people were scared and didn't really mean to hurt him. Sounds like something she would say. When he was lying on the church steps slowly freezing to death, unheard by everyone, I think he came to the conclusion that this was not right. The world was not supposed to be this way, all he ever wanted was to be happy and liked, and have all people get along with one another. So the God Hand appeared and offered him the choice, sacrifice the puppy for eternal happiness for everyone. For his own 'dream' if you like that. And Niko,  probably feeling abandoned by the Nun who had not heard his calls, agreed. The puppy was sacrificed and Niko got transformed into the Mandragora tree. The puppy is a prime candidate for the sacrifice, even if I don't remember it being shown in the game. Because he seems to be Niko's only friend in the flashbacks, and after he gets turned into a tree it is not around anymore. The only other legible sacrifice would have been the Nun, and she was obviously not it.

The Nun was probably the first one infected, and I think the reason that she retained her intelligence was that she already was so kind and gentle she needed no mental transformation to enjoy her new shape. Or perhaps Niko somehow kept her more sane because she was her friend, much like I think that if Jill had been transformed by Roshinu she wouldn't  have been a little elf like the rest of the children, but something more like Roshinu herself. The rest of the villagers followed, and Niku got his wish, the villagers were happy, carefree, but to be that way they had to have their human greed, viciousness and intelligence taken away. The God Hand had twisted Niko's wish so that happiness also meant insanity. Or perhaps insanity was a must for happiness. I go with Guts there, human beings are greedy, vicious things, but that's what they are. Anything that's not that way is not human anymore. I do not know if the effect that those already sane was cured of it was intended, or if it was simply an unforseen effect of the disease. I think it was just a fluke of symmetry.

So... there you go. My take on the Niko business, much has been said before, but I tend to ramble once I start.

By the way... I do so love Guts reaction to the Nun's little speech about the virtues of insanity. If someone has the quote where he says what he thinks about humanity I would love to have it. I know that there are transcripts of the game, but unfortunately I don't have one...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Niko
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2001, 04:56:47 AM »
As you might see I pretty much agree with Griffith. Forgot to say that...  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Ger24

Re: Niko
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2001, 07:04:33 AM »
I think Griffith nailed Nikos story I don't there could be any other way he became the tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Niko
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2001, 12:51:35 PM »
Quote

I think the reason that she retained her intelligence was that she already was so kind and gentle she needed no mental transformation to enjoy her new shape.

Maybe Eriza used to be like Niko, that’s why she’s the only sane Mandragora.  That could be why she empathizes with them (and Niko) so much, she used to be that way.  Eriza tells Guts and Rita at one point that she wishes she was a Mandragora, though it was a lie, I think she yearned to be like her old self again.  She had to shoulder the burden of being human, she had to deal with those newfound feelings of sadness and hate.  That’s why she was always so somber and depressed, and why she ultimately killed herself.
Quote

By the way... I do so love Guts reaction to the Nun's little speech about the virtues of insanity. If someone has the quote where he says what he thinks about humanity I would love to have it. I know that there are transcripts of the game, but unfortunately I don't have one...
This is Guts speech, edited so that it works without Eriza’s dialogue in between.

“If they look different and there hearts are different, then they are not human.  It’s true, humans are greedy and vicious, but I am human; I don’t mind spilling blood to get what I want.”

-Griffith

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Niko
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2001, 03:18:38 PM »
but didn't Ereza say she found Neko dead? so maybe she sacraficed the dog and transformed Neko into a giant tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Niko
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2001, 03:29:42 PM »
Quote

but didn't Ereza say she found Neko dead.


That's exactly what's been bugging me from the beginning.
Also, if Niko is responsible for all the Mandragora stuff (and I'd think he is, like Griffith)... does that mean that Eriza was insane back then? It looks like she already was a Sister, doesn't it? So what?  :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

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Re: Niko
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2001, 03:39:31 PM »
I considered the possibility of her being the Apostle.  But, it just doesn’t add up, the dog, Niko’s “death” and if Niko was simply a victim of Mandragora rather than it’s source he should have had a normal mind when Guts “met” him.  

So why did Eriza say she found Niko dead?  She was lying, just trying to get Guts to leave town, telling him about the giant Niko-Tree Apostle living in the basement wouldn’t have been a good idea.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Niko
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2001, 03:45:58 PM »
Quote

I considered the possibility of her being the Apostle.


Well... I didn't.  ;D
Not seriously, anyway... Eriza looks like she's been infested by the Madragora, nothing else, in my humble opinion...

The problem remains: if Mandragora didn't exist back then, that would mean that Eriza was still insane.  :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Niko
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2001, 03:55:18 PM »
Quote

Well... I didn't.  ;D
Not seriously, anyway...

;) Neither did I, but I wanted to make sure it was totally implausible.
Quote

The problem remains: if Mandragora didn't exist back then, that would mean that Eriza was still insane.  :-/

What's the problem?
Quote

Maybe Eriza used to be like Niko, that’s why she’s the only sane Mandragora.  That could be why she empathizes with them (and Niko) so much, she used to be that way.  Eriza tells Guts and Rita at one point that she wishes she was a Mandragora, though it was a lie, I think she yearned to be like her old self again.  She had to shoulder the burden of being human, she had to deal with those newfound feelings of sadness and hate.  That’s why she was always so somber and depressed, and why she ultimately killed herself.

Or, do you have a problem with her being insane and a Nun?

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Niko
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2001, 04:00:30 PM »
Quote

;) Neither did I, but I wanted to make sure it was totally implausible.


;)
Anyway, Niko is the Apostle (Visual & Story File, page 105, for example).

Quote
What's the problem?


Well... I don't know. I think I envisions her madness to be similar to Casca's, so I can't really see her as a Sister...
Of course, if she was only supposed to be a bit like Niko, I guess it could work...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Niko
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2001, 10:15:06 PM »
Neko wasn't insane from what i know, what i know so far thoe is that Neko was just really carefree so maybe Eriza was just really carefree like Neko so when she was infested by the mandragora like you guys have been saying she got all these new emotions and made her really depressed....ah that had no point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Niko
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2001, 12:02:24 AM »

Quote


Maybe Eriza used to be like Niko, that’s why she’s the only sane Mandragora.  


Yeah... I considered that part as well, because that's what would have made most sense symmetry wise. However, if Eriza was insane I have a really hard time looking at her as a nun, taking care of the church and all that. And also it is implied that she helped Niko a lot, gave him food and so on, and cared for him despite the ignorance of the other villagers. Everything in the game implies that she was sane back then.

Of course she could have been just a little insane, but somehow that seems stretching it a bit. Shouldn't she be just a little bit sane then? I'm thinking that she more likely was a special case, perhaps because she didn't have to loose her mind to have true goodness in her heart. She already was as kind and gentle as Niko.

And yeah, I think Eriza was lying to Guts about finding Niko dead. Or... another thought, pure speculation: Perhaps he looked dead and she took him down to the crypts to bury him (it was winter, so no other grave would have been easily available). Once 'planted' he started to grow into the Mandragora tree. He might be not only the 'heart' of the Mandragora tree, but the 'seed' as well. That would explain why he is rooted in the crypts and not outside the gates to the church where he should have been otherwise. But this is just speculation as the game say nothing about it.


Quote
"If they look different and there hearts are different, then they are not human.  It’s true, humans are greedy and vicious, but I am human; I don’t mind spilling blood to get what I want.”


Thanks a lot!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Niko
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2001, 12:07:27 AM »
Eriza could very well have been the one to sacrifice the dog in order for Niko to live. she di after all have the beherit with her until she killed herself. and her eyes are a bit stranger than anyone infected with the mandragora...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Niko
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2001, 09:26:09 AM »
Quote

Everything in the game implies that she was sane back then... Of course she could have been just a little insane, but somehow that seems stretching it a bit. Shouldn't she be just a little bit sane then?

I think she could have been “simple-minded” and still taken care of the church.  Maybe the church took her in when she was young.  Or, she was just lying about the whole thing, probably got the idea from the Nun legend Mozgus told Farnese (probably not).  Anyway, if she was like Niko I don’t think she would have had any trouble being a Nun.  Aren’t we getting a little too into semantics with this “sane, insane” stuff?

Quote

Eriza could very well have been the one to sacrifice the dog in order for Niko to live. she di after all have the beherit with her until she killed herself. and her eyes are a bit stranger than anyone infected with the mandragora...


First question, what’s the dog mean to her that it would be worthy of sacrifice?

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Niko
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2001, 09:40:09 AM »
it could have been her dog, but i dought that, but Neko dosn't sound like he would sacrifice his dog so Erize would have probley sacrificed the dog.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Niko
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2001, 10:56:46 AM »
The point of the sacrifice is to offer whatever one values most in the world.

If Niko hadn't loved his dog that much, then it would have been useless as a sacrifice.

Just like Griffith really had to love and care about the Hawks to offer them...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Niko
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2001, 04:13:17 PM »

Quote

First question, what’s the dog mean to her that it would be worthy of sacrifice?


she's a nun, she loves all things!

best i could come up with...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

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Re: Niko
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2001, 01:57:29 AM »
Not enough for the ceremony to work... sheesh... ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Fletch

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Re: Niko
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2001, 01:07:07 PM »
i'm extremely bored, so i've taken to posting on every topic that interests me at the moment. anyway, this isn't going to be terribly meaningful, but i think i have the eriza thing worked out reasonably well. first, i think maybe niko sacrificed the world around him, like the egg apostle. the dog might also have been sacrificed, but somehow i doubt that. anyway, i think the nun was likely driven mad with grief right before niko's transformation. that would explain why she's "sane" in the game. i agree wholeheartedly with the analogy of roshinu's children, that was what i had originally assumed after progressing through the game. the only problems i have with the whole mess is: if niko was the apostle, why does the mandragoran infection stay after you slay him? & what makes the mandragoran possessing Casca so powerful? not sure about those two. oh, & lastly... why did the sister have the Beherit? it was attatched to her hawk emblem, after all. i still think niko was almost definately the apostle... but there's enough to make me think something just didn't add up. maybe i missed something though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »