Author Topic: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld  (Read 10594 times)

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-rob-

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Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« on: October 24, 2005, 04:30:16 AM »
We've all seen how honorable Grunbeld is, don't even need to explain. When he sees how umm, dark, Griffith is, I dont think he'll like that. Plus we all know by now Griffith doesnt really give a damn about his comrades.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2005, 04:41:08 AM »
We've all seen how honorable Grunbeld is, don't even need to explain. When he sees how umm, dark, Griffith is, I dont think he'll like that. Plus we all know by now Griffith doesnt really give a damn about his comrades.

Whether Griffith will end up killing Grunbeld, I have no idea, but I doubt it.  Grunbeld probably knows exactly what Griffith is and what he's capable of.  Grunbeld, honorable as he may be, is, after all, still an Apostle.  Whether or not Griffith cares for him is debateable, but I doubt he'll turn on the Apostles following him.

Offline Shirukei

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2005, 04:43:55 AM »
If so, perhaps Grunbeld even consider joining Guts (imagine this hunk of metal in every almost frame in the manga :guts: ) or even the Kushans to go against Griffith.
It may be other way round : Grunbeld kills Griffith.
 :griff: :chomp:

I couldn't really imagine Gurunbeld going against Griffith cause he has the badass antagonist aura after all.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2005, 04:50:23 AM by Shirukei »

Offline Michael

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2005, 05:29:08 AM »
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When he sees how umm, dark, Griffith is, I dont think he'll like that. Plus we all know by now Griffith doesnt really give a damn about his comrades. 

It doesnīt really matter, if Grunbeld likes Griffithīs behavior or not (afterall Handsome Rakshas  :serpico: even said to Grif, that heīs going to have his beatiful head, didnīt he?). All Femtoīs apostle followers acknowledged his authority and from what we seen so far (altough I might oversimplify it here), heīs hardly a man which would act against his own code of honour. Also like Rhombadd mentioned - heīs apostle, which means, that he certainly was capable of "sacrificing" too in past.

One more thing, Grif would need really good reason to let guys like Grunbeld just die. Even, if heīs just a tool, he was one of top military commanders in Midland as human :SK:

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If so, perhaps Grunbeld even consider joining Guts (imagine this hunk of metal in every almost frame in the manga  ) or even the Kushans to go against Griffith.
It may be other way round : Grunbeld kills Griffith.

LOL! By the way, welcome to the boards Shirukei.
The man is the sky, the woman is the earth.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2005, 08:32:14 AM »
One more thing, Grif would need really good reason to let guys like Grunbeld just die. Even, if heīs just a tool, he was one of top military commanders in Midland as human :SK:

He was? I think you got the facts mixed friend. Grunbeld and 3000 other people held off an army of invaders. He wasnt a top military commander of Midland.
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Offline Mad Angel Loki

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2005, 09:59:24 AM »
Even if he is dying Guts would never fight along with an apostle(or he would at least refuses such help),plus Grunbeld may have beautiful speeches but he's an apostle= a creature belonging to the darkness wich have sacrified (all)his humanity looong time ago...so I doubt he is as "honorfull" than we(you) think.
Arf...

Offline Michael

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2005, 01:26:22 PM »
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He was? I think you got the facts mixed friend. Grunbeld and 3000 other people held off an army of invaders.

I assumed he was commander of these defenders and I used the term of Midland in relation with continent as whole (everything Holy See related)  :puck:  If I mixed things on this one just tell me so.

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He wasnt a top military commander of Midland.

The only thing, thatīs speculative is if he made his career as apostle or as human. And yes (given the numbers of clashing armies, that manga provides), if he defended whole country (or even just part of it) with just 3000 men against invading army, Iīm pro, that he was one of top notch.

The Idea of Evil planned coming of Hawk for ages (given the prophecies), itīs just logical to think, that adequate support of (driven and competent) apostle warriors was also pre-planned. Why would Femto let Grunbeld be his captain, if he wasnīt capable commander on his own? Iīm not convinced.

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Even if he is dying Guts would never fight along with an apostle(or he would at least refuses such help),plus Grunbeld may have beautiful speeches but he's an apostle= a creature belonging to the darkness wich have sacrified (all)his humanity looong time ago...so I doubt he is as "honorfull" than we(you) think.

Good point, itīs hard to envision Guts swinging sword back to back with apostle, because of this. Furthermore Guts himself already said to Grunbeld something to point: "You shouldnīt liken yourself to warriors, monsters should fight other monsters." Even during their duel at Floraīs when Grunbeld likened their fight to duel, it was laughable (like Predator punching hell out of Arnold in their "fair" fight :badbone:), doesnīt seemed very honourable (more like cat/mouse chase - Iīm talking about part without Berserk Armor) to me.


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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2005, 03:15:24 PM »
Wow, another great thread. Good replies though, that warms my heart.

We've all seen how honorable Grunbeld is, don't even need to explain.

How honorable? Did you forget what Guts told him? A monster playing at being a warrior... He's an apostle, he didn't look so honorable when running after Isidro and Serpico.

When he sees how umm, dark, Griffith is, I dont think he'll like that. Plus we all know by now Griffith doesnt really give a damn about his comrades.

Are you kidding me? You really think Grunberd isn't aware of Griffith's true nature? They're all apostles dude, and they're not being misled by Griffith at all, they serve him precisely because of his evil nature. Don't be fooled by Grunberd's attitude. He's a monster, and "honorable" only as long as it suits him.

If so, perhaps Grunbeld even consider joining Guts (imagine this hunk of metal in every almost frame in the manga :guts: ) or even the Kushans to go against Griffith. It may be other way round : Grunbeld kills Griffith.

Ugh. :miura:

I assumed he was commander of these defenders and I used the term of Midland in relation with continent as whole (everything Holy See related)  :puck:  If I mixed things on this one just tell me so.

Yeah, you mixed things, SaiyajinNoOuji is right.

Grunberd defended his own country (a small country in the north, nothing to do with Midland) for 10 years against Tudor's armies and with only 3000 men. That's why he's so good. Midland is just a nation, not a continent, and it has nothing to do with the Holy See in that regard.

Maybe this can help you understand the Holy See alliance better.

Offline Michael

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2005, 03:32:02 PM »
Quote
Maybe this can help you understand the Holy See alliance better.

Ok, thanks to clearing that up for me, to both of ya.
The man is the sky, the woman is the earth.

Offline Proj2501

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2005, 08:49:25 PM »
I agree all the Apostles following Griffith know the deal and all that. However...remember the Count in the early part of the manga yes, he sacrificed his wife...but couldn't sacrifice his daughter...could that mean that Apostles (and this is probably a rare occurance) have a change of heart...dont laugh at this even tho i kinda am now...just dwell on it seriously for a moment...im not sayin they all will or anyone of them would...but is it possible that ONE may...lke the count kinda did at the end?? Just give it a thought. Ill be back later to expand...back to work!

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2005, 09:30:22 PM »
im not sayin they all will or anyone of them would...but is it possible that ONE may...lke the count kinda did at the end??

It could be, if the person they loved the most was at stake, like what happened to the Count. Unlikely, IMHO.

Offline Proj2501

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2005, 09:44:40 PM »
It could be, if the person they loved the most was at stake, like what happened to the Count. Unlikely, IMHO.
I agree its highly unlikely...probably ridiculous to bring up...but it would be intersting if an Apostle, was for some reason or another sympathetic towards Guts' aim. This makes me think about sumthin else. Try to stay with me on this: The Eclipse...Griffith sacrificed all the Hawks and they were devoured by the Apostles at that time. Now since then...apostles such as the count who was present at the Eclipse and took part in the Feast has been killed by Guts. Is it plausible to say that since the time of the Eclipse there has been new apostles that have more recently gave up their humanity and become part of demonkind?? I've thought that the Godhand will prey upon people who are at their most desperate/darkest moments. In such cases in reality people commit crimes of passion. This doesn't make what they do right, BUT im sure people can regret what they do. SO, my point: Perhaps there is an apostle out there who sacrificed something they valued above all else and over time have come to regret it...what do you think?      For instance Irvine...yes he is an apostle but doesn't seem bloodthirty and insane like Wyald was.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2005, 10:23:15 PM »
it would be intersting if an Apostle, was for some reason or another sympathetic towards Guts' aim.

Well... Sure, why not. It depends on what you mean by sympathy. Zodd probably understands Guts' feelings to some point for example, but that doesn't mean he's going to be nice to him or anything. They can show some sort of "respect" to each other while still being enemies (see SK and Zodd, though their relationship seems deeper than that).

Is it plausible to say that since the time of the Eclipse there has been new apostles that have more recently gave up their humanity and become part of demonkind??

It's been 2/3 years, so I guess it's possible yes. I'd cite Balzac as an example, he was made an apostle after Griffith's incarnation.

Perhaps there is an apostle out there who sacrificed something they valued above all else and over time have come to regret it...what do you think?

It could be, though I think there's a limit to the little bit of benevolence an apostle can retain after his transformation. Now to have something like that really influence the story... I'm not going to consider it until we have any serious hint in the manga.

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2005, 02:50:52 AM »
They're all apostles dude, and they're not being misled by Griffith at all,


In the old Hawks Griffith didn't tell anyone his true agenda accept for Guts... I dont think the new Hawks would make any difference.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2005, 03:03:45 AM »
In the old Hawks Griffith didn't tell anyone his true agenda accept for Guts... I dont think the new Hawks would make any difference.

What's with comparing the old Hawks with the Neo Hawks? They call Griffith "master" you know, it's not the same relationship at all. You were saying that Grunberd might rebel once he learns about Griffith's "dark" side, and that's just misunderstanding the situation (because he knows what Griffith really is). Griffith's agenda doesn't have anything to do with it.

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2005, 03:20:32 AM »
What's with comparing the old Hawks with the Neo Hawks? They call Griffith "master" you know, it's not the same relationship at all. You were saying that Grunberd might rebel once he learns about Griffith's "dark" side, and that's just misunderstanding the situation (because he knows what Griffith really is). Griffith's agenda doesn't have anything to do with it.


No, when I said darkside it had nothing to do with him being a member of GodHand. I meant his Cruelty... I dont know where that GodHand idea came from, I'm sure too they all know who he really is........ We seen Grunbeld protect Humans (Mule I think) from Apostles in his own Army. That seems like a good hint at him being honorable. I just dont think Grunbeld will agree with the way Griffith does things.

Offline Mad Angel Loki

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2005, 10:36:53 AM »
We seen Grunbeld protect Humans (Mule I think) from Apostles in his own Army. That seems like a good hint at him being honorable. I just dont think Grunbeld will agree with the way Griffith does things.
He protected Mule AND Sonia...moreover I think that Mule was invited by Griffith so Grunbeld protecting Mule is more a soldier obeying his commander(master) than a monster showing some sense of honor IMO
Arf...

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2005, 11:59:29 AM »
He protected Mule AND Sonia...moreover I think that Mule was invited by Griffith so Grunbeld protecting Mule is more a soldier obeying his commander(master) than a monster showing some sense of honor IMO



We don't know that for sure tho. I think. =/

Offline CnC

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2005, 12:05:56 PM »
Grunbeld saved Sonia.  As you recall it was Irvine that saved mule.

So it doesn't really matter what Grunbeld thought of mule at the time.

So on to the next topic:

PREDICTION:  Griffith Kills Irvine
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 12:07:35 PM by CnC »
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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2005, 01:23:52 PM »
Grunbeld saved Sonia.  As you recall it was Irvine that saved mule.

So it doesn't really matter what Grunbeld thought of mule at the time.

So on to the next topic:

PREDICTION:  Griffith Kills Irvine


I was thinking he's probably gonna end up killing his whole army (Again).

Offline Smith

Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2005, 01:52:56 PM »
SO, my point: Perhaps there is an apostle out there who sacrificed something they valued above all else and over time have come to regret it...


That of course could be possible... But i am quite sure they have come up to the point where they are already numbed to their guilt if they ever have... Because they should be well aware that they have come to a point of no return...

I was thinking he's probably gonna end up killing his whole army (Again).

Yet what make you think this will happen? I am assuming that the word "killing" meant that he sacrifice them (In one way or another, he wouldn't be killing them for no reason)... However he can't sacrificed again because he is already what he is... A god hand... Unless you are saying he need to be revive again should he be dying (Very very unlikely IMHO)
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2005, 03:38:12 PM »
No, when I said darkside it had nothing to do with him being a member of GodHand. I meant his Cruelty...

Hahaha, seriously? It sounds like a joke, really. I'll say it again: they are apostles, and they are his servants. What cruelty? Because Griffith sacrificed his men in the past? :judo: Are you forgetting than Grunberd himself sacrificed something in order to become an apostle? That they all did?

Grunbeld protecting Mule is more a soldier obeying his commander(master) than a monster showing some sense of honor IMO

We don't know that for sure tho. I think. =/

Grunberd saved Sonia (Irvine saved Mule), as CnC said, and he indeed states that they are important people to Griffith, and so that doing anything to them would have consequences. No doubt about this.

I was thinking he's probably gonna end up killing his whole army (Again).

Yeah, guess nobody had guessed that's what you were coming to. Smith said it: why? What would he gain from it? It's not like he sacrificed the Hawks for no reason...

Offline xechnao

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2005, 03:53:09 PM »
Grunberd saved Sonia (Irvine saved Mule), as CnC said, and he indeed states that they are important people to Griffith, and so that doing anything to them would have consequences. No doubt about this.

This discussion reminds me of when Zodd screwed one while at Flora's mansion. Apostles are indeed very agressive but what it seems interesting is the way they consider Griffith. If Apostles are evil in the eyes of humanity they are all but good in the eyes of Griffith.
I think they are better described as (Griffith's or GH's) dogs than evil beings.
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2005, 04:32:54 PM »
Yeah, guess nobody had guessed that's what you were coming to. Smith said it: why?


He'll think of something... He's Griffith... (No sarcasm intended, dead serious)



EDIT: I dunno, I guess I just get this really bad vibe from Griffith... I think he will kill Grunbeld tho, whether its because of what I originally stated, or maybe Grunbeld could mess up and piss Griffith off? (Doubt it tho)... Or like someone said Griffith doesnt even need them, maybe after awhile he'll just consider them as "Being in the way" ?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 04:44:32 PM by -rob- »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Prediction: Griffith kills Grunbeld
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2005, 04:34:23 PM »
I think they are better described as (Griffith's or GH's) dogs than evil beings.

First, I wouldn't call them "dogs", second, they can be evil beings as well as servants to the God Hand, it's not incompatible. Anyway, while most of them serve Griffith, at least one doesn't (Ganishka). It shows that serving him is a conscious decision, not some inescapable part of their nature. While they are naturally inclined to follow him, it isn't obligatory (Wyald is also a good example of not respecting anything). Let's not forget that in general, serving Griffith is in their best interest.

He'll think of something... He's Griffith... (No sarcasm intended, dead serious)

So he'll think of a reason to kill off his army, basically he'll find a pretext. It doesn't make sense, it's not like he'd need to justify himself... :schierke:

Griffith doesnt even need them, maybe after awhile he'll just consider them as "Being in the way" ?

That's a possibility. I myself speculated about that long ago. But for now, nothing hints at it. And as for Griffith killing Grunberd specifically, really, I think it's unlikely. Zodd messed up as much as him at Flora's place.