Author Topic: After Griffith becomes king?  (Read 4896 times)

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Offline relmneiko

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After Griffith becomes king?
« on: March 22, 2007, 02:14:56 AM »
In my diggings through the archives (yes, I am aware of the search function), I noticed a few posts that mentioned something similar in passing, but I don't think this specifically was delved into, so..

At this point it seems highly likely that Griffith will manage to take over Midland and become king. I can't honestly see him thinking to himself, "Well, I've taken over the country. I'm satisfied." Assuming that Causality doesn't have other plans (which it probably does... but then again, I do recall Griffith being described as 'living outside the story'), he could end up doing a few different things:

1) Attempt to conquer other nations and aquire greater power. This seems like the simplest conclusion to me.

2) Turn his attention inward and attempt to make great changes in Midland. I can't really see him doing this, as it would require him caring about how the popluace of his country lives their lives.

3) If Griffith wants power in order to understand his own existence and his destiny in the world and, upon becoming king, he still doesn't understand this, he might continue on to greater things - such as the hypothesis that Griffith will eventually challenge Godhand and/or the Idea.

The third option could result in either success or failure, depending on whether you think he is the Ultimate Strong One (who lives outside of the story etc.) or not.

Personally, I think he will challenge Godhand and fail, but that is, as one would expect from the name of this board, just speculation.  :guts:

So what do you think Griffith will do once he becomes king? Or will something (Godhand, Guts, Skully, whoever) interfere before he actually gets there?
"As my duty as an immortal, I've prepared a brand-new world view for mankind. When I temporarily linked with U-DO, I climbed the ladder of evolution, and saw the leaning tower of culture that humans have struggled to construct. It's not even a tower, really, it's a scaffold of rotting wood, built with meager knowledge and pitiful tools. But a nice guy would tell them the truth, would he not? 'Hello! You've got it all wrong!'"

Offline Aazealh

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2007, 05:45:42 PM »
In my diggings through the archives (yes, I am aware of the search function), I noticed a few posts that mentioned something similar in passing, but I don't think this specifically was delved into, so..

Actually, I think this was debated at length considering what little concrete matter there is to discuss at the present time. But why not make a new thread anyway. :serpico: It's interesting because it brings us back to the fact that we don't really know what Griffith will do once he's king, and what will happen then. Basically it's a complete mystery save for Slan's comment on the "age of darkness" and a few meager clues here and there.

Anyhow, there are some errors in your post, allow me to point them out.

Assuming that Causality doesn't have other plans (which it probably does... but then again, I do recall Griffith being described as 'living outside the story')

Strictly speaking, causality itself doesn't have any plans. Causality is only a principle (the action or power of a cause in producing its effect). The one that has plans is the one using causality to achieve its foul ends, namely the Idea of Evil. As for the line you're quoting about Griffith residing "outside the story," it's an analogy Skull Knight was making to describe how nobody in the material world armed with normal weapons could harm him (see the scene with the arrows in Shet). It's got nothing to do with causality, it's about the ideal, astral and material layers of the world.

And anyway, causality has been working in Griffith's favor so far, as one would logically expect. There isn't any reason for this to change right now.

1) Attempt to conquer other nations and aquire greater power. This seems like the simplest conclusion to me.

Yeah, that seems relatively likely right now. He might also take some time to unite all the countries related to the Holy See under his banner, without necessarily fighting.

the hypothesis that Griffith will eventually challenge Godhand and/or the Idea.

You're aware that Griffith himself is part of the God Hand, right? And that the Idea of Evil made him the way he is, put him in the position he is and told him to do whatever he wanted? I don't see the logic behind this hypothesis, it seems preposterous to me. These guys are allies and their individual goals form a common one, which is also the Idea of Evil's.

The third option could result in either success or failure, depending on whether you think he is the Ultimate Strong One (who lives outside of the story etc.) or not.

The appellation of the "Ultimate Strong One" is only relevant for Zodd, and it's already been decided upon (in volume 17). It's just the man/creature Zodd was searching for (no reason given so far but I'm confident it'll be clarified eventually), outside of that it's not related to anything. No one but Zodd ever used that expression. Its mention isn't very pertinent in the present case.

So what do you think Griffith will do once he becomes king? Or will something (Godhand, Guts, Skully, whoever) interfere before he actually gets there?

Why would the God Hand prevent Griffith from doing anything? Again, Griffith is a member of the God Hand, and he's acting in their best interest right now. They're all in league. There's no way in hell they'll do anything against him. As for Guts, he's not going to interfere with anything for quite a while. SK is a wild card, but since he's left Griffith alone so far when he was vulnerable, it seems doubtful he'll attack him right now, while he's at his strongest.

Offline Blues

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 05:59:45 PM »
SK is a wild card, but since he's left Griffith alone so far when he was vulnerable, it seems doubtful he'll attack him right now, while he's at his strongest.
This is something I've been pondering for quite some time, Skull Knight contacted Guts before the eclipse and (to my knowledge) knew completely what was at hand with Griffith, and yet attempted nothing when he was vulnerable. Maybe he was playing a wait and see or was unsure if an interference would change anything.

Offline relmneiko

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 07:50:05 PM »
Quote
As for the line you're quoting about Griffith residing "outside the story," it's an analogy Skull Knight was making to describe how nobody in the material world armed with normal weapons could harm him (see the scene with the arrows in Shet). It's got nothing to do with causality, it's about the ideal, astral and material layers of the world.

Regarding this - do you (or anybody) know the specific volume/episode where the Skull Knight said this? My memory of it is a bit fuzzy, and I alway took it to mean 'residing outside the influence of Fate' or something to that effect.

Quote
You're aware that Griffith himself is part of the God Hand, right? And that the Idea of Evil made him the way he is, put him in the position he is and told him to do whatever he wanted? I don't see the logic behind this hypothesis, it seems preposterous to me. These guys are allies and their individual goals form a common one, which is also the Idea of Evil's.

My entire third option was based on the idea that Griffith could have actions that would fall outside the influence of Causality, as per my possible mis-interpretation of the Skull Knight's quote. Up until now everything he has done and become has been as a result of the Idea's intentions, but that doesn't mean that it might not change.

Griffith's actions serve the Idea at present, but he seems to have no interest in the other members of God Hand or in the Idea. He's just following his own goals. If he began to act outside of the Idea's interest, Griffith's goals and those of God Hand could easily collide.

But since this is all based off false information in the first place, it's pretty much moot. -.-; Oh well.
"As my duty as an immortal, I've prepared a brand-new world view for mankind. When I temporarily linked with U-DO, I climbed the ladder of evolution, and saw the leaning tower of culture that humans have struggled to construct. It's not even a tower, really, it's a scaffold of rotting wood, built with meager knowledge and pitiful tools. But a nice guy would tell them the truth, would he not? 'Hello! You've got it all wrong!'"

Offline Aazealh

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2007, 10:09:35 PM »
Regarding this - do you (or anybody) know the specific volume/episode where the Skull Knight said this?

Volume 28, episode 237.

My memory of it is a bit fuzzy, and I alway took it to mean 'residing outside the influence of Fate' or something to that effect.

Well sadly that's about as wrong as you can get. "Outside of fate" doesn't mean anything here or in Berserk in general. There's no written "fate" people can be in or out of.

My entire third option was based on the idea that Griffith could have actions that would fall outside the influence of Causality

I think the problem here is that you appear to be regarding Griffith as separate from the rest of the God Hand, while he's not. His actions don't need to fall outside the influence of causality, because causality benefits him and his purposes.

Griffith's actions serve the Idea at present, but he seems to have no interest in the other members of God Hand or in the Idea. He's just following his own goals. If he began to act outside of the Idea's interest, Griffith's goals and those of God Hand could easily collide.

Just like the other members don't seem to have any particular interest in him. And really, can you tell what Griffith's interests are right now? Or his motives? He's just a big chunk of mystery. Also, I don't think his goals could collide with those of the other members of the God Hand. He was specifically made so that he'd have these goals. He was told to do whatever he wanted, and that's what he's doing. And because his goals were calculated before his birth, what he wants to do fits perfectly with the rest. There's no need to manipulate or coerce him, and he has no reason to rebel against what he himself represents.

I can't see anything of the sort happening outside of a scenario in which the Demon Child inside of him would dramatically compromise his integrity.

Offline Cruella

Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 12:11:35 PM »
I've been wondering about this a lot, though don't have any good ideas (predictably), just questions. And even posted way too much about it on the wrong thread. bad me.  >:(

Before Ganishka came into such focus, I thought that whatever Griffith will enjoy in his ruling, one thing for sure, world will turn to worse. I still think so, of course, based on promises of Dark Age, etc. But now I am particularily curious, what changes for worse will there be? More supernatural, yes, but how much worse it can get, especially for midlanders? They already are being slaughtered left and right, their capital was turned into nightmare city, they are even attacked by magical creatures. I wonder what Griff and co can do to outdone Ganishka?
And if neverending suffering is the ultimate goal, there seem to be no need for Griff even, just let Ganishka loose, he's doing great job himself. No is there a need for new kingdom, just let apostles do their thing overtime, and soon there will be no one left. I guess I just wonder what new brand of evil will new regime bring with itself?

As for Idea/Griffith's plans, it brings Ibsen to my mind (as many things in Berserk do for some reason). There is a discussion in his play about kings, destinies, thrones and such. Who is the greatest man? The happiest. What does it mean? The happiest is the one who desires the same thing as universe.
Only in Berserk it has such sinister meaning....

Offline Blues

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 07:43:46 PM »
Cruella, even though Griffith is part of God Hand and whatever he does is essentially the same (as far as we know) what the Idea of Evil wants, I don't think Griffith is just trying to become the next Ganishka or rule with terror. His ambition/dream was to acquire his own kingdom. Also, from what I can see, the dark age foretold (by God Hand or the prophecy, I forget) has already begun. Femto/Griffith being crowned might lead to something far worse, but at the same time there's nothing yet (at least in my view) to show that Griffith has any intentions of becoming the definition of evil. He's more than kind (even if it is manipulative) to the human hawks he has enlisted and does his best to earn their support, not just let apostles loose on them. Even recently, he could have let Ganishka proceed to do a lot more damage without his interventions, even if he was being a strategist.
Of course, this can all change and be a part of a bigger plan, but for now, Griffith wants the people to be on his side, and less "I feel like destroying the world!"

Offline HawaiianStallion

Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2007, 04:22:20 AM »
My guess is Griffith is going to help the God Hand, and the Idea, do whatever it is they're doing... which has something to do with changing the world, etc. etc.

Offline Darquenaut

Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 06:31:58 AM »
This theory may be a little bit out of the loop, so feel free to criticize, spindle and mutilate as you will...

With the rise of Griffith will most likely (if not guaranteed) inherently rise the "Age of Darkness," which is obviously not a good thing for humanity, is still very vague as to what this "darkness" is.

For many of us, one of the most gripping scenes in Berserk was the Eclipse, in which most of the characters up to then when brutally annihilated before us. This was a very visual interpretation of "darkness." But at the same time, in wouldn't make sense to have Griffith at the peak of his power do a double take, sprout wings, and he and all the Apostles have a massive blood orgy (or whatever you would prefer to call it). For me, it just seems too... "loud" I suppose. Too overdone and melodramatic. Further, since the Idea of Evil was born through humankind's dark feelings, and I would assume is sustained through this (although I may be wrong), it would be ridiculous for it to just decimate humankind.

Instead, what if this "darkness," is in fact an age of ignorance, a time where humankind is essentially scared stupid into believing whatever it is the Godhand feeds them. We've already seen this possibility through the workings of the Holy See, esp. in Albion. Now imagine the atrocities seen there except exploited at a much larger scale. In essence, using religion to further instill fear and hatred, and further feeding the Idea of Evil.

So, in a nutshell and to beeline back to the topic at hand, I feel that once Griffith becomes king, I would speculate a strong increase in the influence of the Holy See, a closed-off nature to foreign soils, and essentially an age of instilling conflict and fear in humankind,m which further strengthens the Godhand and the Idea of Evil.

Perhaps not as grandiose as say hellfire and brimstone coming from the sky, but I feel it would be more on par with how the Godhand operates-- through manipulation than spectacle.
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Offline Cruella

Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 09:03:23 AM »
I feel that the biggest problem for me when I attempt to speculate is that we know so little about idea's "goal" in this and what's necessary to accomplish it. I agree that it wouldn't make sense to just start killing humans in droves - this process was in full swing already. And yes, I agree that it seems like Griffith's arrival is helping with merge of worlds, however, does he need to be king for this to be accomplished? The merge already started. So what will Griffith do as a king to make this merge complete? So far things seem to progress nicely without his help. I also agree that he will most likely become "evil dictator" with his evil kingdom, MA Stalin if you will. This can go nicely with the theme of dictators rising when there is chaos, and with people expecting some knight in shining arms to save them, instead of doing it themselves (though what they can possibly do I don't know, but it's another question...) Still, the tyrans rise when its time of chaos precisely because it seems to me even life under tyran is prefferable for humans to chaos.

I found interesting post from Aazealh about this, but I am not sure if it's okay to repost other members' posts. Anyway there is an interesting point there that Ganishka would be kinder ruler than Griffith after he won, which I agree, since it seems logical for progress of the story. But I just wonder how it would be accomplished practically, Ganishka is an apostle and seems sadistic, we already saw him feed women to crocks, how much more evil can will Griff's rule get?

Anyway, it's my long winded way of saying that I am totally lost...  :???:

Offline Circe

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2007, 11:14:08 PM »
I honestly think that Griffith will achieve in getting Midland after all its "destiny". But it doesn't mean he'll maintain it. Yes he's supposed to bring in a darker age though how that could get any darker I'm not sure lol, but its supposed to be destiny. Though once Griffith takes over it won't last. After all Griffith says he'll be taking his kingdom all the time but that doesn't mean the minute he does he can't get his hide chopped off. *images and cheers*

Offline Pesmerga

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2007, 12:36:15 AM »
I think Griffith will be a good king (by supposing he will be) but the manifestation of the other 4 God hand will make him a tyrant for the other people.

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2007, 11:38:58 AM »
This theory may be a little bit out of the loop, so feel free to criticize, spindle and mutilate as you will...

Makes a lot of sense to me, good post. It fits in with my own musings on the Nature of the Idea of Evil and the Godhand.
The cold season drifts over the land.
They all huddle in the brown corners.
Some would settle for less.
The castles were all empty, asleep
Long awaiting their King.
Beckoning round the bend.
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Offline Okin

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Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2007, 07:25:22 PM »
Though there is little to no proof of this theory, I believe that the purpose of Griffith's actions as a God Hand member is cause human misry and suffering in a particular way. It has been a growing theory of mine that each God Hand member represents a great cause of human misery. Each members life and outlook on the world was created and shaped by the Idea of Evil. Conrad was shown in the rats during a plague. Lust was shown in the fire during the cultist orgy. Griffith was shown in people's dream during their darkest hour. Maybe Griffith's role in the Idea of Evil's plan is for him to betray humanity's feelings of hope and triumph. After all the horrible events that were caused by the other God Hand the last thing the Idea of Evil could do to cause human suffering wouldbe to bring their hopes up, and then dash them against the ground with betrayal.

I don't think Griffith has thought at all of what he would like to do after becoming king of Midland. I believe accomplishing that goal he would be able to die happy. Maybe he would want to come to terms with Guts, his only friend? I expect Griffith to bring peace to Midland again, but only so that an even greater catastrophe can emerge as a result. This would not be Griffith's own intention, but a result of the Idea of Evils planning.

In a way I believe that other God Hand members will interfer with Griffith's affairs, but only after his purpose has been fufilled, or he has done all he can for Midland.
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Offline Waychel

Re: After Griffith becomes king?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 12:49:01 PM »
EDIT: Crap I posted in the wrong thread. =x Sorry... I guess since I already posted in here...

I do not see Griffith stopping at becoming king. I doubt that after raising an army of the most powerful Apostles, Griffith will just hang up his banner and sit in a throne room all day. Griffith was willing to sacrifice the Band of the Hawk in order to become king, so I'm sure that he would be willing to sacrifice an entire kingdom's worth of people in wars with other countries to become an emperor.  Maybe that is the "Age of Darkness" alluded to in earlier episodes: war (Griffith), plague (Conrad), debauchery (Slan), etc.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 01:13:40 PM by Waychel »