Which are IDEA's (Griffit) real powers and limits?

I started to wonder about it time ago, when Walter in a message mentioned some words of ParadiseLost ?
In this message Walter mention a Theory about Femto powers during the Millenium Eclips or something like it this is the sentence ?For example, "WHOA! HOW DID FEMTO SMASH THOSE BODIES 2-GETHER D00D?? OSMOSIS?!!"?

After this I come back to the volumes of the Eclips and I?ve noticed what Griffit does when first tries to Stop SK and then again when SK is escaping with Guts and Caska!
And ?osmosis? gave me some Ideas?.
Everything created by Idea as Apostoles and GHs is controllable and directly influenced by the GH!
When Femto for the first time closes his Hand he just smash all the bodies of the Apostoles together (around SK), reducing them to a kind of ball of meat, like he actually had them on his hand and just squeezed them together, but he couldn?t produce any effect on SK, whom without any problem just took up Guts and Caska and went away!
While SK was flying away, Femto tried again to stop him: he closes again his hand but nothing happens, then surprised he watches his hand again kind of trying to figure out what?s happened!
This for me is a prove that SK's-ultimate form is not connected to Idea (I mean nothing to do with Behelit and similar!), but must have been created by another Entity (probably Flora at least in part (maybe ElfsKing+Flora-, as the Sword of Resonance is clearly kind of born from a ROSE plant!), but could be a little prove also of Griffit-Idea's Limits!
Again with Zodd, in the volume 17, Griffit doesn't need to fight with him, seems more like he has the control of Zodd's body (or I?d say Zodd flesh), when Zodd tries to fight him, he just open up his face and cut his horn even though it was a Dream!
My theory is that ( at least before the Re-birth) the GHs power can actually have a physical influence just to the Apostoles that have been created by them!
So my Theory is: Idea (can that can just influence the consciences of humans and combine events, somehow created the Behelits maybe this is the real Mystery in Berserk: which is the origin of the Behelit?) => crisom behelit => GHs (directly controlled by IDEA) => behelit => Apostoles (directly controlled by GHs) => Apostoles still have a human body so they can live and kinda of extend the Power of Idea to the Human word!
Zodd being an Apostole is also obliged to pursuit the WILL of Griffit otherwise he?ll be just deleted by him! That's why he has to be Griffit's servant!
In the chapter 7 Volume 17, he watched the sky, appearing worried and depressed and says:
"You Must be the only One!.. Well what is he doing?.. The Skull Knight"
Then Zodd says: "I only wish for one thing.." here he gets interrupted by the white Hawk!
I always thought the he meant "I only wish to fight the strongest one!!", as many others I guess, probably not wrong, but I've never been wondering why!
Also he says "I seek for the strong one", not clearly says I want to fight the strong one!
Maybe he fights to test humans! In fact in the same chapter he says to feel disappointed by those humans, that he have been fighting for 300 years and still kinda of have some hopes!
Does Zodd seeks the strong one to have fun fighting him or kinda or he's fighting to find the strong one for another reason??
Maybe SK and Zodd are seeking for the strong one that can beat IDEA!!!!!
Zodd he says to SK you must be the only one! Maybe he meant the only one free from the Powers of IDEA between the others!
Or the only one that CAN DO SOMETHING against IDEA and the GHs!
I think one thing is clear, Zodd doesn't wish to serve the GHs but he has too!
Discussions welcome!

;)

Why Femto didn't kill Guts, Caska an Skully has been speculated on several times, and one of the main theorys (and also I believe) is that Femto had the chance and the power right there and then but let them go intentionally. I believe thats what Miura was trying to get across that after all of that Griffith still didn't want to kill them deep down, even after becoming a demon king.

As for Zodd, he is with Griffith because he chooses to be, not because he will be destroyed if he doesn't serve him. It has been said that a Apostle can do whatever they want on earth, and the ones that follow Griffith choose to because it's the closest thing to being beside God.

And I don't think even Skully would be attempting to kill the idea, as he is more or less the essence of reality as it's known, but Zodd certainly wouldn't consider it.

Sparnage took the words outta my mouth.

Sparnage said:

Why Femto didn't kill Guts, Caska an Skully has been speculated on several times, and one of the main theorys (and also I believe) is that Femto had the chance and the power right there and then but let them go intentionally. I believe thats what Miura was trying to get across that after all of that Griffith still didn't want to kill them deep down, even after becoming a demon king.

As for Zodd, he is with Griffith because he chooses to be, not because he will be destroyed if he doesn't serve him. It has been said that a Apostle can do whatever they want on earth, and the ones that follow Griffith choose to because it's the closest thing to being beside God.

And I don't think even Skully would be attempting to kill the idea, as he is more or less the essence of reality as it's known, but Zodd certainly wouldn't consider it.

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Well i wasn't here when you were discussing it, i'd like to know what those discussions leaded to ;)

I don't agree about Zodd being free to choose!
I think the main meaning of being free for an Apostole is that they are actually free as a mind to choose from which side stand but i don't think that this won't cause any consequence to them in some particular cases as for Zodd!
For example i absolutely think that Zodd is serving Griffit for its own Will but not for his wish (I don’t know how to explain!)!
Zodd have been obliged by Femto in the moment that he showed him that he wanted Zodd to serve him otherwise he'd be just split him in twice just by one single move!
If i think so, it's for a simple reason: Zodd knows a lot and knew what Griffith was meant for just after their first meeting!
If he actually wanted to serve him since the beginning he'd not need the Hawn to cut his Horn and hurt his face to convince him, as i don't think that Zodd wasn't aware about the Hawks powers before the vision!
Also i can't stop thinking the face of Zodd watching the sky wondering (depressed or at least worried) if Skull Knight was the one!
The one of what?? Or the one to can what??
I'm sure that he meant he was the one that was not under the power of the GHs (certainly thx to Flora's actions .. for example the Amour ect) as for example the Apostles are!
I think Zodd is a character that would prefer to die fighting then just serve who is stronger than him!
Maybe he's acting the servant cause for now he can't do much more!
When he fought with Guts at the Swords Hill (but even before!) for example i don't think that he gave all himself against Guts that wasn't without the Cursed Armour!
I suspect he just wanted act like he actually was serving Griffith and at the same time, kind of training Guts!
There are some expressions of the face of Zodd and on his words that don't fit at all with what he actually does! (as long as we don't know his past we can't know his real Goals!)
The more i think to Zodd and the weird way he acted the more i think that between Guts and Griffit/Idea he's on the side of Guts (kind of Saint Seiya Hades Chapter!)..... maybe Miura didn't mention anything yet about the Past of Zodd and what leaded him to be an Apostle, cause he doesn't yet wants to show the real intentions of Zodd!
Such a fantasy??

Lol



We'll see! ;)

Sparnage said:

Why Femto didn't kill Guts, Caska an Skully has been speculated on several times, and one of the main theorys (and also I believe) is that Femto had the chance and the power right there and then but let them go intentionally. I believe thats what Miura was trying to get across that after all of that Griffith still didn't want to kill them deep down, even after becoming a demon king.

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I don't agree with this as well!
If Griffit didn't want to kill him he wouldn't sacrifice GUts!
Instead he made the sacrifice watching straight to the face of Guts!
What was the destiny predeterminated by Idea for what is my opinion it was to let Caska survive so that she'd born the Demon child destinated to be Griffit reincarnation's body!
But SK surpriced everyone Femto as well interrupting the correct flaw of the Events predeterminated by Idea!
First Griffit looks at SK coming and pointing him by his hands, it closes it and quizee all the Apostoles around him togethem but SK is untouched! (a mistake? a joke?)
then Griffit looks at SK flying away with GUts and Caska and point him by his Hand again, then closes it for second time (no apostles in the way!), but nothing happens then watch at his hand again with a surpriced face why?
No way, i think that the reason it was that he could do anything to the body of SK!
As for Void that one thing that could he do against SK it was to reflex back its own sword!
All the GHs were surpriced as Void as well..... they just justify it as a weird path that Idea choose without they knew it but i think in that moment Void says something wrong: they didn't know cause Idea didn't previewed this happening!
I think that from that moment IDEA started to adjust a new future adapting to the situation developing time by time!
I think in facts that if the Egg Apostle was not stopped by Guts, he would already destroyed the human world creating the new World he wished with Griffit as Lord of it, instead a new complication that slowed down Idea's plans happened and again thanx to Guts and SK!

So which are the limits of IDEA and Griffit?
If they are perfect they are unbeatable.... such thing i don't think ;)

;)

I belive that zodd chose to be with griffith because zodd has never wished a thought ever, and then as soon as he wishes to fight the ultimate strong one, griffith appears and grants his wish. Griffith beats zodd (granting his wish), and for granting the wish zodd has to serve griffith in return.

DemonX said:

I belive that zodd chose to be with griffith because zodd has never wished a thought ever, and then as soon as he wishes to fight the ultimate strong one, griffith appears and grants his wish. Griffith beats zodd (granting his wish), and for granting the wish zodd has to serve griffith in return.

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Do you think that kind of Dream was a the Great fight that Zodd wished?
I doubt it, also cause in that case i think that we'd see Zodd esulting and with kinda of big laugh he would say something: "oh finally my wish is granted.... I've been waiting for this 300 years bla bla bla"!
The face of Zodd instead is depressed and kinda of wondering "what to do now?"
I've never seen the face of Zodd serving Griffit glad or proud of what he does!
And this doesn't explain why he says thinking to SK "are you the one?"
I'm sure that he knew Griffith powers from before and that he didn't look to fight the STRONG ONE in the sense of the fifth GH that is obviously stronger than him.... but maybe to find who could compete with him.... fighting against humans for 300 years and feelings disappointed by it, in my opinion has a deeper meaning than just fight for the pleasure of FIGHT against humans!
So why didn't he start fighting Apostles obviously stronger than humans!
Maybe cause then IDEA would tear him off quite immediatly throught a GH's action?
No way, the more i look at ZOdd the more i believe that he's seeking the Strong one between humans!
What this Topic wants to wonder also about the IDEA-GRiffit powers and limits (actually the mean topic of this topic)!
what can beat them for you and why?
;)

And.....
Why SK says that just a human born by an innatural way can defeat the plans of Destiny??

What makes Guts born in a cursed way able to do what SK can't himself??

Who solves this, he understood actually Berserk in my opinion!

Why would Zodd be the only Apostle that is forced to work for Griffith? Yes he did find his dream and find the ultimate strong one as well, and I believe somewhere else in the Manga where Zodd said something like "there is only one in this world who I would serve under".

Most importantly though, there have been no real signs of Zodd being reluctant to follow out his orders or serve under Griffith in general, I honestly can't think of one.

Sparnage said:

Why would Zodd be the only Apostle that is forced to work for Griffith? Yes he did find his dream and find the ultimate strong one as well, and I believe somewhere else in the Manga where Zodd said something like "there is only one in this world who I would serve under".

Most importantly though, there have been no real signs of Zodd being reluctant to follow out his orders or serve under Griffith in general, I honestly can't think of one.

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Well the Dream/reality experience Zodd had for me it was a clear sign of THAT in my opinion; if not which is the meaning of the violence Griffit inflict to him??
And again he didn't look at all excited or pleased by that Visit from the Hawk!
Don?t you think that Miura wouldn?t spend some more pictures of Zodd finally satisfied cause he found what he was looking for?  Zodd bleeding keeps sitting and says nothing, certainly he?s not jumping of happiness..
Also it doesn't explain why he fights just the humans to find the ultimate one and he didn't fight instead the other Apostles that are certainly stronger (and eventually more fun to beat!) than just simple humans!
If what you say it's true that means that one like Zodd was not aware of the 5th Ghs powers untill he actually visited him in the Dream?
Mmmm i think that the Thread Griffit gives to Zodd it was very close to a Recruiting act!
As DemonX also noticed he doesn't looked happy or excited at all to fight Guts or stand under Griffit commands!
That we don't know anything about the past of Zodd (a main character in the Manga) to me is suspicious, i don't think Miura just didn't bother to give any particular of his past or any reason why Zodd is an Apostle and he's seeking for the Strong one (Strong One not ultimate strong!! I think that Strong one is kind of the nickname!  He's the suject he's looking for!! He mustn't be an Apostle and must have a human body!!  and to me this person will be ==> GUTS!)

Sparnage said:

and I believe somewhere else in the Manga where Zodd said something like "there is only one in this world who I would serve under".

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In vol 26, when guts was confronted by the demon near Flora mansion and he encountered Zodd

Italian_demon said:

Well the Dream/reality experience Zodd had for me it was a clear sign of THAT in my opinion; if not which is the meaning of the violence Griffit inflict to him??
And again he didn't look at all excited or pleased by that Visit from the Hawk!
Don?t you think that Miura wouldn?t spend some more pictures of Zodd finally satisfied cause he found what he was looking for?  Zodd bleeding keeps sitting and says nothing, certainly he?s not jumping of happiness..
Also it doesn't explain why he fights just the humans to find the ultimate one and he didn't fight instead the other Apostles that are certainly stronger (and eventually more fun to beat!) than just simple humans!
If what you say it's true that means that one like Zodd was not aware of the 5th Ghs powers untill he actually visited him in the Dream?
Mmmm i think that the Thread Griffit gives to Zodd it was very close to a Recruiting act!
As DemonX also noticed he doesn't looked happy or excited at all to fight Guts or stand under Griffit commands!
That we don't know anything about the past of Zodd (a main character in the Manga) to me is suspicious, i don't think Miura just didn't bother to give any particular of his past or any reason why Zodd is an Apostle and he's seeking for the Strong one (Strong One not ultimate strong!! I think that Strong one is kind of the nickname!  He's the suject he's looking for!! He mustn't be an Apostle and must have a human body!!  and to me this person will be ==> GUTS!)

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Yeah he tried to attack Griffith in his dream and lost a horn, we still don't hear Griffith say anything like "you are my slave now bitch" in anyway just a dream of violence being inflicted on him proving that he was not as powerful as Griffith. When Griffith did appear after the second Eclipse Zodd came from no where to find him, Griffith did not seek Zodd.

Zodd is somewhat like Locus and Grunbeld (the more honerable Apostles out there I suppose) Locus said he wouldn't fight for anyone that was inferior to him and so he was happy to find Griffith to serve, Zodd was seaking the ultimate strong one, so when he found Griffith he too was also willing to serve him.
Why is it such a surprise think he would be, most other Apostles are quiet happy to serve him to feel closer to God so why would Zodd be any different? He is closer to the highest power available and has the chance to kill stronger beings (he probably figured out he would come across Guts or Skully easier this way anyway).

Smith said:

In vol 26, when guts was confronted by the demon near Flora mansion and he encountered Zodd

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Thanks.

Sparnage said:

Yeah he tried to attack Griffith in his dream and lost a horn, we still don't hear Griffith say anything like "you are my slave now bitch" in anyway just a dream of violence being inflicted on him proving that he was not as powerful as Griffith. When Griffith did appear after the second Eclipse Zodd came from no where to find him, Griffith did not seek Zodd.

Zodd is somewhat like Locus and Grunbeld (the more honerable Apostles out there I suppose) Locus said he wouldn't fight for anyone that was inferior to him and so he was happy to find Griffith to serve, Zodd was seaking the ultimate strong one, so when he found Griffith he too was also willing to serve him.
Why is it such a surprise think he would be, most other Apostles are quiet happy to serve him to feel closer to God so why would Zodd be any different? He is closer to the highest power available and has the chance to kill stronger beings (he probably figured out he would come across Guts or Skully easier this way anyway).



Thanks.

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What you say is what i thought untill one week ago, now i changed my Mind after reading again the Vol 17! And then connecting other things about Zodd that didn't completly fit to me and still don't!
I reconsidered Zodd completly and i think it is "understeem" of this character define him just one that wants to fight for fun and serve the strong one, i have the feeling he has a deeper Goal and that he's closer to SK than to Griffit in some ways but that he can't show it openly (that's why he lets SK with Guts to go away)!
You are right we didn't see Griffit obbliging him, anyway we didn't see Zodd enthusiast and telling that he wanted to serve Griffit!
I think Zodd has a hidden Goal that can't reveiled to anyone and that has to be hidden to Griffit, so he acts like he's on his side!
So yes i think that Zodd freely choose to serve Griffit, but that the reason why is not what Miura wants us to believe (i think he's setting up a nice surprice for the future!)
Why i think so is:
1) i believe that as SK, Zodd is well aware of Griffit's power and didn't need to fight him on Dream to know them;
2) he never looked Ethusiast to pursuit his orders but anyway he acts as his servant (i don't think to Zodd would be any problem to die fighting against Griffit if he actually didn't have a Hidden Plan!)
3) he says: "you must be the one".... referring to SK not to anyothers!
4) he says (not speaking but thinking): i only wish for something.... (but it doesn't say what! Obviously every of us thought to know what!!)
4) he kept fighting humans for over 300 years look the strong one (not the Ultimate strong that was obviously Griffit: he'd know it immediatly after having seen the Behelit!), but the one unhuman he fought is SK, strangly never killing him or being killed... to me is more to show that he's not from his side! (in fact the respect each other, something strange considering Sk's fighting against Void at least!!)
5) after the Dream, he looks down (depressed and worried) to the horn then says something like "when the sky falls arrives the Shepherd" or something like that, to me he sound malinconic like something he was expecting is going to happen (and maybe he didn't have time to find the "strong one"!)
6) you say that he immediatly go to serve Griffit as a prove he wants freely serve him....
Well to me is not a prove... How did he know where Griffit would appear? Maybe it was Griffit himself asking him to go there and catch him!
We didn't see any picture that shows how the meeting between the two happened. I'm suspecting Zodd is just trying to act like he's on Griffit's side!

But again this is just one of the discussions of the Topic!

Which are Ideas and Griffit's limits?

Those points are possible but still all your points are based on speculation, and though I don't see your points the same way you do but I suppose anything is possible but I still don't see him having such a secret hidden plan against Griffith seeing he probably as a Godhand probably knows most of what can be known about Zodd anyway. Eventually we will find out and thats all that can really be said for now.

As for Griffiths limits, the only one I could think of is a magic user being on the same level as him would make in vulnerable and prehaps essentially bring him closer to the laws of normal reality, that is enough for Guts to use Dragonslayer on him.

Think about it; no one can attack beings completely bound to the astral world like spirits aside Guts and other beings who live in the interstice between worlds, so if Griffith is a being who can reside fully in the physical world without the downside limits of things like mortality and power limit like that of a normal human, then prehaps a magic user or some kind of power can make him be bound closer to the standard rules of reality and logic, so thats why he is afraid of magic users and why Guts has a chance to kill him.

As for the Idea's weakness..... well technically he was made as a collective conscious of reality so in theory by killing every single being on the planet could very well destroy him, or at least weaken him severely.

Why Femto didn't kill Guts, Caska an Skully has been speculated on several times, and one of the main theorys (and also I believe) is that Femto had the chance and the power right there and then but let them go intentionally. I believe thats what Miura was trying to get across that after all of that Griffith still didn't want to kill them deep down, even after becoming a demon king.

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I kinda disagree with this. In Volume 2 or 3, Femto didn't even flinch when he actually thought he killed Guts. He seemed to care one bit. He seems to have looked at his hand in confusion rather than in contemplation.

I belive that zodd chose to be with griffith because zodd has never wished a thought ever, and then as soon as he wishes to fight the ultimate strong one, griffith appears and grants his wish. Griffith beats zodd (granting his wish), and for granting the wish zodd has to serve griffith in return

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Zodd and Wyldde had a weird conversation that kinda stuck in my head, as Zodd's horns pierced Wyldde's back. Wyldde says something like "your trick to extend life won't work". Could Zodd be actually using Griffith for some kind of hidden agenda?

Tarnaak said:

Zodd and Wyldde had a weird conversation that kinda stuck in my head, as Zodd's horns pierced Wyldde's back. Wyldde says something like "your trick to extend life won't work". Could Zodd be actually using Griffith for some kind of hidden agenda?

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Actully, it is Zodd who says "Your trick to extend life wont work". He tells Wyld this, because Wyld wanted griff to summon the godhand early so Wyld wouldn't die. He was alredy mortally wounded, and I guess he would heal up or somthing at the eclipes. Then, Wyld tries to reason with Zodd to not kill him because they are on the same side, but Zodd says that because either way Wyld will die.

Ahh my bad. Thanks.

Tarnaak said:

I kinda disagree with this. In Volume 2 or 3, Femto didn't even flinch when he actually thought he killed Guts. He seemed to care one bit. He seems to have looked at his hand in confusion rather than in contemplation.

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Yeah, he also not long before raped Caska right in front of him but when he is first Femto he seems to know how to use all his powers when he first awakens. When he first uses them to try and kill Skully he misses and creates a huge blast before looking a tad confused, but has a second go right before Skully is leaving, and as he has his hand ready to crush them he looks closely at Guts before not going through with it.

I agree with him being confused, but whether or not he was hesitating on if he should kill Guts or not I'm still not sure. Miura could very well have even intended those two possibilitys being in there to make the reader ponder on it.

Sparnage said:

Yeah, he also not long before raped Caska right in front of him but when he is first Femto he seems to know how to use all his powers when he first awakens. When he first uses them to try and kill Skully he misses and creates a huge blast before looking a tad confused, but has a second go right before Skully is leaving, and as he has his hand ready to crush them he looks closely at Guts before not going through with it.

I agree with him being confused, but whether or not he was hesitating on if he should kill Guts or not I'm still not sure. Miura could very well have even intended those two possibilitys being in there to make the reader ponder on it.

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Yes, maybe....... but if we could have a doubt about Femto "will" to kill Gutts, i don't think Femto missed SK for a mistake or lack of convinciment!
In the picture everything around SK unless Sk himself have been smashed!
The more i think and look again to the pictures and the more i believe that Femto's powers couldn't reach SK's body but just the Apostle bodies!!
The second time he looks again at his hand for me he's wondering why nothing happened!!
I think the original plan of Idea it was after the Rape of Caska (that wasn't for fun or to punish anyone), just release her alone!
Zodd after Sk is out of the dimentional Tornado, acts like he wants to fight him (maybe for my theory of "his secret Goal"), but then he just let them go cause he says: it will be fun to see how long a branded human will survive in the interstice. (something like it)... (but earlier before, "maybe" he let SK suddenly cut his arm quite easily just to give him the time to go save Guts).
Zodd says that Sk have been opposing "them" for thousand years, but if he's 300 years old, who is "them"(he can't refere to just himself!!)??
I believe that Zodd since the beginning acts like serving the Will of Idea but for a specific and nobble Goal!
(he saved Guts life already twice: at the first meeting and at the second!
Many reasons for sure but i'd not exclude that he could sense potentials in Guts uses for his real final Goal!)

Will be interesting to check those Theories in the future!

Caska was right there with Guts.  I'm thinking he hesitated to kill Guts because he would also kill Caska.  I think he knew Caska was pregnant and raped her in the attempt at currupting the child she carried (as well as get back at Guts for wrecking his dream).  He knew that the child would be his vessel in the real world.  I think, like it was stated by Sparnage, that Griffith was aware of the powers at his disposal.  Not only power but knowledge as well.  When he became Femto I'm sure he became aware of magic users and other strange things that he knew nothing about as a mortal.  I think that as he is now, he isn't just following his dream to have his own kingdom.  Him becoming king might be what is needed to merge the worlds/realms.  I gotta stop.  I'm giving myself a headache with all this wild speculation on my part.

I never thought to consider him not wanting to kill Caska because of the child, interesting. Still it was Guts he looked at before hesitating, but could have easily been two reasons to let them go.

I think its just that Griffith doesn't care anymore. His dream was to get his own kingdom, not destroy Guts and Caska. So I would imagine that he wouldn't care about Guts unless he gets in his way. Then he will just call Zodd and he will be on his way again.

Jon the Madman said:

I think its just that Griffith doesn't care anymore. His dream was to get his own kingdom, not destroy Guts and Caska. So I would imagine that he wouldn't care about Guts unless he gets in his way. Then he will just call Zodd and he will be on his way again.

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not entirely true... Griffith still shows interest in Guts weather for good or bad. From my perspective Griffith might be a Demon King, yet has not forgotten the fact that Guts WAS a big part in he's human life... he may not feel it anymore (according to a few people) but he still remembers. My question is what are he's intentions with both Caska and Guts???

Nomad said:

My question is what are he's intentions with both Caska and Guts???

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Ignoring them I suppose?

Anyway Griffith doesnt really care about Guts right now... Even though he knew Guts might look for him for revenge but he had anticipated that Guts would never fufill his dream... Guts was no where near him


As for Caska, after what i had seen in vol 22, i suppose its the same because she had no use to Griffith already...