Episode 374

[Walter]

I read through the most recent episodes again, and I have to say that the whole thing with the Beast of darkness was basically useless. As Aaz and Walter previously said, its appearence in ep 373 doesn't make any sense, and it's a huge misconception about what the chains that bind it are; but besides that... what was the point of showing it? It breaks the chains in ep 371, then it mocks Guts in ep 373, and here Guts puts it back in chains. Nothing new was said by either the Beast or Guts, and the status quo hasn't changed even a bit. They really have no idea how to fill 21 pages of content. You can basically throw away half the pages in these episodes.

I think they're in the process of introducing a big change for Guts, and this somewhat meaningless time they've spent on the Beast is an artificial filler inserted to rationalize that eventual change. They're giving it (page) time to manifest so it won't feel sudden.

That makes sense to me, structurally. But unfortunately for readers, it all amounts to lip service, because each scene merely repeats the same lines from the beast that we've heard for years—nothing is being pushed forward. They're only elongating the problem each time they touch it. So yeah, it does end up feeling artificial and filler-y. Just more and more pages of Guts looking and feeling hopeless ever since Ep 368—a truly insane amount of time spent on it versus how he coped with the Eclipse.

 

[Vitris]

I think they're in the process of introducing a big change for Guts, and this somewhat meaningless time they've spent on the Beast is an artificial filler inserted to rationalize that eventual change.

That's what I've been thinking too. The amount of discussions about the possible changes to the armor and the last few episodes done by Miura did show that things would've taken an interesting turn in that regard (well, we're talking about Miura, of course it would've been interesting). All this back and forth between Guts and the Beast is just infuriatingly boring and unclear.

They're only elongating the problem each time they touch it. So yeah, it does end up feeling artificial and filler-y.

I think that the biggest problem is the timing. I think that the Beast should've played a big role in this confrontation with Griffith and Zodd, but instead nothing happened. I still can't figure out if Guts suppressed it in ep 365 or if it just decided to take a look at Griffith for a couple of seconds out of curiosity.

 

[guuuuuuuuts]

Do we think any of the characters from Elf Island who disappeared will make a return? Would that make any possible sense? Has anyone written up a list of who is left at this point among the more minor characters introduced on Elf Island?

 

[Vitris]

Do we think any of the characters from Elf Island who disappeared will make a return?

I think they'll appear again towards the end just for the final battle.

Would that make any possible sense?

This continuation? Making sense? I want what you're smoking right now.

 

[Goat]

My personal recap of that BoD section is "bootleg Kurama situation".

 

[Aazealh]

I read through the most recent episodes again, and I have to say that the whole thing with the Beast of darkness was basically useless. [...] They really have no idea how to fill 21 pages of content. You can basically throw away half the pages in these episodes.

I've said plenty on the matter already, but in short: yes it was useless. Like Walter mentioned, they're showing this imagery repeatedly to hammer in that Guts is undergoing a crisis. But they're not treating it as a narrative development, merely as a symbol that they think people can easily understand because it's been shown before. In that context, the fact it doesn't make sense either goes above their heads or isn't their concern. And that's at least partly because yes, they do have to fill those pages with something.

This is compounded by the fact they're not actually depicting the events and story structure Miura intended (because they've abbreviated the story as they don't know what was supposed to happen). What that means is that they're showing Guts having a crisis outside of the proper context it was supposed to take place in. So nothing fits really, whether it's the causes, surrounding context, his thoughts and behavior, his companions' reactions, and most likely how it will be dealt it.

The result is a bunch of scenes that don't bear any resemblance to what Miura would have actually portrayed, as far as I can tell. But they can be summarized as "Guts having a big crisis of confidence after his confrontation with Griffith", and if that's what Miura had told them was going to happen, maybe they consider it mission accomplished. It's the inherent problem with the approach they've chosen for the Continuation.

this confrontation with Griffith and Zodd

Since you mention it, I don't think Zodd was meant to be there (and in truth he hardly was).

Do we think any of the characters from Elf Island who disappeared will make a return? Would that make any possible sense? Has anyone written up a list of who is left at this point among the more minor characters introduced on Elf Island?

If you mean Danan, Hanarr or Isma and the merrows, I don't think they will, or only very briefly (like for words of encouragement). Hanarr's disappearance might be problematic for them given his relation to the armor, but they could have Rickert work on it instead through some half-assed contrivance, or they might just not address it at all.

Then there's all the magicians who haven't disappeared but have been effectively neutered, which seems to indicate Mori & team don't plan on them playing a significant role in the future. Of course it's always possible they'll regain their powers (as arbitrarily as they lost them), but my guess is that because they don't know what Miura intended for them, they're writing them out of the story.

 

[Vitris]

Since you mention it, I don't think Zodd was meant to be there (and in truth he hardly was).

Do you think someone else was supposed to be there? Or do you think Griffith would've done everything by himself?

 

[Aazealh]

Do you think someone else was supposed to be there? Or do you think Griffith would've done everything by himself?

I don't think Griffith needed anyone's help to leave the island.

 

[A.C]

The Beast of Darkness was always a bit difficult to read and make sense of, apart from the general gist that it represents a conflicting desire within Guts on what path to take: find peace with Casca (and other potential comrades that kept accumulating during the journey) or go after Griffith and the monsters like before with no regard to anything else.

The question is, what exactly could be done with this part of the story, even in the hands of Miura? It has been teased like a potential disaster waiting to happen, and if nothing serious would come of it the Beast would seem like all bark and no bite. An interesting (and necessary) exploration into the main character's psyche during parts of the journey, but not something that would justify the amount of imagery and foreshadowing. On the other hand, if the Beast gets its true moment it seems that would be the end of human Guts, perhaps not in a literal sense (as with a sacrifice to the Godhand), but in a psychological and thematic sense.

Before the continuation, in episode 290, which was the last time we heard the Beast speak anything apart from "yield", it makes a prediction that Guts will lose his friends and that will be the time Guts will yield to it. But it is hard to imagine Miura would've actually killed off Guts' friends in order to play out whatever he had in mind for the emergence of the Beast.

In the continuation, episode 371 and 373, the Beast makes its first return independent of the armor OD influence. It seems to be triggered by the memory of Griffith, the chains are broken as Guts seemingly gives up on the "Casca path" when he internally contemplates that everything he did was in vain (i.e. the path he choose).

However, it seems Guts is not energized (motivated) enough to even go for the path of the Beast at this point. Guts does attempt to give in, reaching for the sword, his mind starting to burn with rage, but he is unable to retain this state, which should cause some concern for the Beast. Guts does not feel rage this time when an image of Griffith appears in his mind, instead he falls ill (implied to be some effect of the brand) and drops to the ground devoid of motivation. But the Beast is just laughing and pointing out Guts' limits when these very limits should also be a concern for it, because they are not remedied merely with the solution of rage.

In a way the situation of the Beast offering Guts power almost reads like what one would expect in an Occultation ceremony, except the seduction is coming from within Guts himself (in the form of the Beast) instead of outside demons, even though the Beast has no real power to grant Guts apart from blind rage using the armor. Hence why Guts remains immobilized. Since they're teasing the Beast card, it would've made more sense for Guts to have despaired more from losing Casca than on his sword failing him, in order to induce rage, whereas it would've made more sense to focus on the sword and his loss of power if they were going the Behelit route instead (necessitating a sense of impotence). But they're focusing on the loss of power while teasing the Beast, which feels contradictory and off.

Which brings me back to my original question: how would Guts giving in to the Beast make sense, whether in a similar context by Miura or vastly different, when it would seemingly either require the death of Guts' friends first (unlikely to happen) or the loss of everything else (such as is the current situation), i.e. being robbed of Casca, losing the first and likely the last promising place since the days of the Band of the Falcon, and having the refugees from that place amount to nothing in terms of power to resist or defeat the enemy. But with the second (and current) option you then get the problem of Guts despairing to such an extent and feeling so powerless that he does not even seem capable anymore of giving into the Beast.

Any other option (i.e. Elf Island remains, magicians having potential to defeat the enemy, etc) would not be enough to bring out the Beast since too much hope would remain whereas if almost all hope is lost Guts would be unable to do anything even if he gave into the Beast.

So how would, could, or should the factor of the Beast and Guts' struggle with it really be done for it to work in a satisfying way for the end game of the story?

For it to work you'd need to have Guts be able to at least believe he can injure or kill Griffith by giving in to the Beast, which would involve actually being able to hit Griffith or Guts still thinking he could hit Griffith. Guts not being able to land a single blow on Griffith is what is causing a lot of these narrative problems, so was that really Miura's intent? We did see Rickert slap Griffith after all.

Maybe Guts will give in to the Beast for real if he finds out somehow that Griffith actually can be hit physically and without the help of anyone else (since relying on anyone else would prevent Guts from fully giving in to the Beast). Maybe if Griffith actually tricks Guts into believing Guts can hit him (if that's what he did in the presence of Rickert), using Guts' Berserker rage against Guts himself and his allies, then in the aftermath Guts would have to bury the Beast for good and recognize that too is not an option. That way we would get a "giving fully into the Beast" moment and the solution (tragic end) to it. Not sure that would be all that satisfying though, but it is one way it could be done and sort of make sense.

 

[guuuuuuuuts]

a truly insane amount of time spent on it versus how he coped with the Eclipse.

That is insane. One of my favorite sections is Guts waking up after the eclipse.

This continuation? Making sense? I want what you're smoking right now.

The large number of specific minor characters disappearing along with the island is confusing me.

Hanarr's disappearance might be problematic for them given his relation to the armor, but they could have Rickert work on it instead

Thanks for offering some clarification. I was thinking about Hanarr and the curse witch when I started to feel a bit overwhelmed in understanding what happened to them. If they do re-appear, I cannot make the connection in my own mind of how that would happen outside of some astral apparition (thinking of Last Jedi when Luke appears as an apparition).

I don't think Griffith needed anyone's help to leave the island.

I suppose Zodd was needed in order to take Caska away quickly. Reminds me of unlocking fast travel in Farcry.

 

[TheItCrOw]

I suppose Zodd was needed in order to take Caska away quickly. Reminds me of unlocking fast travel in Farcry.

He was needed so that Guts had something to fight while Griffith snatched Casca. Griffith could have obviously done that himself, but I guess the team couldn't figure out how to play out this interaction without Zodd occupying Guts. That's at least my take from it, because Zodd does nothing except fighting Guts and lending Griffith a flying hand. Maybe he was also there for the latter now that I think about it.

 

[Aazealh]

The Beast of Darkness was always a bit difficult to read and make sense of

This is simply not true, as you just proved by being able to summarize the dilemma it represents: to remain human or to give up everything in a self-destructive quest for revenge. In my experience, the part that people have a hard time grasping is the relation (and difference) between the Beast of Darkness and the berserk's armor.

The question is, what exactly could be done with this part of the story, even in the hands of Miura?

Exactly what Miura had been teasing: things would have come to a head with the berserk's armor, with Guts losing control and turning on his friends, without the boy to stop him or Casca to remind him who he is. He doesn't have to actually kill them for it to be a big deal, a close-call would be enough. That would have prompted some deep soul-searching and a much-needed new approach to his use of the armor.

Having checked your whole post, I think it's important for me to underline here that Guts would have never willingly "given in to the Beast of Darkness", meaning abandoning his identity and becoming a mindless killing machine. Which is why the berserk's armor is interesting, since it's always threatening to overtake his mind regardless of his conscious desires. That's why it's so dangerous.

Any other option (i.e. Elf Island remains, magicians having potential to defeat the enemy, etc) would not be enough to bring out the Beast since too much hope would remain whereas if almost all hope is lost Guts would be unable to do anything even if he gave into the Beast.

Neither the Beast of Darkness nor the berserk's armor require a feeling of hopelessness. That's not at all how they're presented in the story and I have no idea why you're talking about it. It's true that twice in the past, Guts willingly gave in to the armor because the situation required it. Each time he was lucky that his son was there to prevent a catastrophe. But what if his son hadn't been there? That's what you should consider.

Anyway, the danger of the armor is that he always feels that impulse as long as he wears it, it isn't tied to feeling hopeless or anything like that. That's why there has been a tension every time he's fought since he acquired it, because he could slip up and lose control at any time. The scene on the beach with the Skull Knight in volume 28 serves to exemplify that. The mere mention of the Falcon triggers it.

Maybe Guts will give in to the Beast for real if he finds out somehow that Griffith actually can be hit physically and without the help of anyone else (since relying on anyone else would prevent Guts from fully giving in to the Beast).

Whether Griffith can be hit or not has no bearing on the impulses the Beast of Darkness represents. And like I said above, Guts would have never willingly "given in" to it. Maybe what you mean is that he would have unleashed the full power of the armor, but that's a different thing altogether. It's really important not to confuse the two, even though the Beast and the armor have a symbiotic relationship.

In the continuation, episode 371 and 373, the Beast makes its first return independent of the armor OD influence. It seems to be triggered by the memory of Griffith, the chains are broken as Guts seemingly gives up on the "Casca path" when he internally contemplates that everything he did was in vain (i.e. the path he choose). However, it seems Guts is not energized (motivated) enough to even go for the path of the Beast at this point. Guts does attempt to give in, reaching for the sword, his mind starting to burn with rage, but he is unable to retain this state, which should cause some concern for the Beast.

I think you're overinterpreting these panels way beyond the intent of those who drew them. Not a knock against you, but I'd advise you to make sure to differentiate between the way Miura portrayed all these elements and the way they're shown in the Continuation. Otherwise you will be hopelessly confused. Other than that, I find it weirdly reductive to talk about "paths" for Guts to choose, it feels like you're talking about how to get different endings in a video game, and that's not how the story works...

Thanks for offering some clarification. I was thinking about Hanarr and the curse witch when I started to feel a bit overwhelmed in understanding what happened to them. If they do re-appear, I cannot make the connection in my own mind of how that would happen outside of some astral apparition (thinking of Last Jedi when Luke appears as an apparition).

Well I understand why you're bothered. Miura had set up a lot of very interesting characters and story developments, and they were all written out of the Continuation. That's what actually happened to them: they've been removed because Mori & team didn't know what role they were supposed to play.

I suppose Zodd was needed in order to take Caska away quickly. Reminds me of unlocking fast travel in Farcry.

My point was that Griffith could have flown off without Zodd's help.

 

[A.C]

what Miura had been teasing: things would have come to a head with the berserk's armor, with Guts losing control and turning on his friends, without the boy to stop him or Casca to remind him who he is. He doesn't have to actually kill them for it to be a big deal, a close-call would be enough. That would have prompted some deep soul-searching and a much-needed new approach to his use of the armor.

Having checked your whole post, I think it's important for me to underline here that Guts would have never willingly "given in to the Beast of Darkness", meaning abandoning his identity and becoming a mindless killing machine. Which is why the berserk's armor is interesting, since it's always threatening to overtake his mind regardless of his conscious desires. That's why it's so dangerous.

When I'm talking about the Beast, and Guts "giving in to" or "choosing the path of" the Beast, I'm not really talking about the armor. The armor was made to bring its wearer towards going berserk regardless, and is the most prominent fashion the Beast can utilize to manifest itself, serving its desires. But that's merely a mechanical factor in this. There is a deeper psychological problem here and the true nature of the Beast that existed even before Guts came into possession of the armor.

As far back as its first appearance in episode 118 it has been hinted that Guts' life of revenge has sown the seed of a growing monster within him that parallels the monsterous or bloodthirst aspects of people who become Apostles (the forces that Guts himself is fighting) and brings to mind Nietzsche's quote "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." In episode 190 it became clear that the Beast is an actual part of Guts and not merely the influence of spectres taking possession of him, a part of him that entices himself to give up (even rip apart) Casca as fuel to become vicious enough to reach Griffith.

Because Guts himself has the Beast within himself regardless of the armor, and given the foreshadowing, I don't see a different approach to his use of the armor really solving the fundamental issue. And as long as the focus is on the armor and not Guts' psyche, the status quo is not going to change.

But that's where the problem lies. If all Guts will fight is against control of the armor then the Beast issue will not be resolved, but if he resolves the Beast issue through some deep soul-searching without ever mentally becoming like the beast (independent of the armor) then the temptation will amount to nothing except the armor was the danger. If there was no chance of Guts mentally turning into the Beast of Darkness under any circumstance without the armor then that would make the Beast a non-issue if not for the armor. The impression I get from the imagery with the chains and foreshadowing is that the Beast is a bigger issue than just fuel for the armor.

Since Guts true potential weakness against resisting following the impulses the Beast represents (independent of the armor) is dependent on his circumstances, i.e. the extent to which he has something or nothing to lose or even believing it can be done, that's where being able to hit Griffith or not would have bearing. Outside of the armor, Guts following the impulses the Beast represents did have an element of rationalizing that was lost once the armor was introduced as a more urgently dangerous catalyst that does not even require the Beast to entice or rationalize with Guts. But behind that lingers still the original temptation.

 

[Aazealh]

When I'm talking about the Beast, and Guts "giving in to" or "choosing the path of" the Beast, I'm not really talking about the armor.

I figured as much, but to me that shows a confusion about what the Beast of Darkness is supposed to represent in the story. There is no "path of the beast" that is viable for Guts to follow. It is something within him that he has to fight, and presumably to eventually tame, lest he loses himself and everything he holds dear. Ever since the titular episode, it has been presented as a point of no return for him, which is why he was never going to actually "become the Beast" as you say.

As far back as its first appearance in episode 118 it has been hinted that Guts' life of revenge has sown the seed of a growing monster within him that parallels the monsterous or bloodthirst aspects of people who become Apostles

I don't think you can say that it parallels people who become apostles, no. That's a simplistic notion that doesn't fit the facts of the story, where not a single apostle whose backstory we see is shown sacrificing merely because they're bloodthirsty. What the Beast of Darkness is associated with is the persona of the Black Swordsman, a man deeply traumatized by the Eclipse and who will do anything for revenge.

Puck veered him away from that path enough that he could heed the call to go save Casca when it came. Since then he's moved farther and farther away from it, but the trauma and associated madness are still there under the surface. Not much of a problem in normal circumstances, but dangerous when wearing the berserk's armor.

Because Guts himself has the Beast within himself regardless of the armor, and given the foreshadowing, I don't see a different approach to his use of the armor really solving the fundamental issue. And as long as the focus is on the armor and not Guts' psyche, the status quo is not going to change.

Well that's obvious. I've talked about this many times over the years. His trauma needs to be healed (much like Casca's), which will go a long way in helping him use the armor more intelligently. The two go hand in hand. The armor will never be safe to use because of its nature, but taming the Beast of Darkness would have become necessary for him to keep using it at all.

if he resolves the Beast issue through some deep soul-searching without ever mentally becoming like the beast (independent of the armor) then the temptation will amount to nothing except the armor was the danger.

I don't think it's true at all to say Guts absolutely has to "become like the Beast" without using the armor or the danger it represents would amount to nothing. It's like saying because Guts never died in the story, he was never in danger of dying. Like I told you above, the Beast of Darkness represents a threat from within, it's not meant to be a valid option he could pursue. And we've seen him give in before, when he bites Casca's breast in volume 23.

If there was no chance of Guts mentally turning into the Beast of Darkness under any circumstance without the armor then that would make the Beast a non-issue if not for the armor.

Without the armor, the Beast of Darkness would be a minor issue after he accepts new companions, yes. It would amount to Guts sometimes having unhealthy thoughts and impulses, maybe behaving rashly or unreasonably, but not in him killing his friends. That's why the introduction of the armor to the story at the time Miura did it was so clever. It rekindled and turbocharged the danger the Beast represents.

If you want to see Guts at risk of crossing a line he couldn't come back from without the armor, it's already been done in the Black Swordsman arc and Lost Children chapter. It's not a coincidence the Beast of Darkness is introduced right after that: it's to show that this side of him remains there, even though he's mellowed. That it can and will resurface, because he can't get over the Eclipse.

The impression I get from the imagery with the chains and foreshadowing is that the Beast is a bigger issue than just fuel for the armor.

What the chains represent in episode 290 is Guts' ties to his companions. There's no mystery about it. They are used to keep the Beast of Darkness – which represents his darkest and most destructive urges – in check. And it specifically needs to be kept in check while he wears the berserk's armor. That's what it teases him about, telling him he won't be able to do it.

And guess what happens on the solitary island, when he unleashes the armor's power? The chains begin to break... But he's stopped by his son, who dispels the darkness to show him Casca's face, before anything bad can happen. Hence what I told you in the previous post.

Since Guts true potential weakness against resisting following the impulses the Beast represents (independent of the armor) is dependent on his circumstances, i.e. the extent to which he has something or nothing to lose or even believing it can be done, that's where being able to hit Griffith or not would have bearing.

The Beast of Darkness was never concerned about whether something was doable or not. The kind of urges it represents aren't about calmly assessing the feasibility of killing the God Hand. That's really besides the point.