Guts and fate... a question

[Nabeshin]

Okay, everyone says and the characters' comments seem to imply that Guts is fateless, existing outside of human destiny. It's a reasonable thing to think, seeing as escaped the Eclipse, killed many apostles and generally survived what no man should ever have been able to. But is he really in charge of his own destiny? It seems that in many ways Guts is just as 'fated' as Griffith. He owes his life and his skills to the fact that Gambino's band passed by his mother's execution site when they did. He became part of the Hawks because of his chance meeting with Griffith, was spared by Zodd because Griffith and his beherit happened to be on the scene, and survived the fight with Boscogne and ended the war with Tudor thanks to Zodd's help. And it was the Skull Knight that got him out of the Festival -- he was quite a handful for the apostles, no doubt, but he would have died like all the other Hawks if not for Skully. So what is it that supposedly makes Guts independent of causality? He has a lot of strength and a will to match, but he wasn't responsible for any of the events above -- he was just fated to escape those situations alive. It's been suggested that he's like a random variable who doesn't fit into the God Hands' estimation of humanity's future, but if that's the case, shouldn't they be more worried about him? Their attitude toward Guts when the Count called them demonstrates that he's insignificant in their eyes. What makes Guts any less bound by destiny than anybody else in Berserk?

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think Guts has something very powerfull which is "the will to carry on" the strengh and the determination to keep fighting. You would be suprised what happens when you refuse to give up. Options present themselves if you can last long enough. Guts also has a strange and unusual way to captivate people with his way of being. Griffiths army had elected him as the new leader because of this, not fate.It was because of his passion for life that he himslef does not know he has. You would think that if anyone has a reason to let go of his life on this earth its Guts. But for some unsaid reason he continues to push forward. Not even god himself could stand in Guts's way. He truely is a "warrior" in every sense of the word.

 

[Majin_Tenshi]

My two conflicting views.
1. Guts is beyond Idea's control. He is a monkey wrench in the grand-scheme-'o-things. He was never supposed to be born. Idea repetedly tries to kill him. Yet, Guts is beyond his reach.

2. Guts is more intimately tied to Idea then anyone else. Idea is formed from the darkest parts of the human collective unconsciense. Guts rage and revenge is what gives him strength, so Idea is at the base of his power. The beast was formed by Guts and Idea's closeness, and only when Guts is one with it, does he have the power of god.

I like the potential of the first idea better, though i can't disolve the second.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I like the systematic way of thinking Tenshi. Very robotic. Ever think of becoming an android? 8) ;D

 

[Majin_Tenshi]

I like the systematic way of thinking Tenshi. Very robotic. Ever think of becoming an android? 8) ;D

It would be less of a change then it would be for most.
Above average math ability --> Computer processing
slightly stronger then I look--> Stronger then any man alive
can heal but fragile --> can't heal but durrable
limited emotion --> no emotion
bad social skills --> worse social skills
I see mostly improvements. How would I go about becomeing an android?

 

[Cloud Strife]

I see mostly improvements. How would I go about becomeing an android?

Well I would say we are about 50 years to early on that convo. Man kind has yet to implement robotics into our anatomy. Sure we have legs and things of that nature. But where are the emotion canceling chemicals/neural modifications, increased relexes and mobility, cpu's implanted into our brains ect ect. But until then, if you have any Maya skills. I suppose you could make a 3D anroid model of yourself. Or maybe just watch ghost in the shell 1000x in a row. :-\

 

[Majin_Tenshi]

Then don't tease me.
I can't get a hold of a copy of Maya, but I have a limited degree of 3D Studio skills. Note Avatar.

 

[ShinHell9]

I feel that guts' fate was chosen before but after the eclipse he is in control of his fate he was the one who chose revenge as his fate. The whole beginig (before the penpals song) sets that theme. The point that the god hand doesn't fear him makes him so much more deadly.

 

[Nabeshin]

My two conflicting views.

1. Guts is beyond Idea's control. He is a monkey wrench in the grand-scheme-'o-things. He was never supposed to be born. Idea repetedly tries to kill him. Yet, Guts is beyond his reach.

This would be cool, but as you say, there's a lot to keep you from fully believing it. If the Idea is truly all-powerful, all it would have had to do is pull a few subconscious strings and drag Gambino past the tree. And if the God Hand wanted to kill him as the Black Swordsman, they'd only need to nudge several powerful apostles in his direction. Now, it's possible that the Idea doesn't have that kind of absolute power, and that anyone who acts according to independent thought ("people like keys that move the world") is free of Idea. Guts would qualify for that, but so would Luca, Jill and a bunch of other people, so that doesn't work if Guts should be seen as unique.

2. Guts is more intimately tied to Idea then anyone else. Idea is formed from the darkest parts of the human collective unconsciense. Guts rage and revenge is what gives him strength, so Idea is at the base of his power. The beast was formed by Guts and Idea's closeness, and only when Guts is one with it, does he have the power of god.

An interesting way to look at it, and Guts' attitude about the people who die so he can get his revenge seem to go along with the Idea's dialog in chapter 83. However, there also seem to be times when the Idea of Evil is entirely absent from Guts, like the time he sees the reborn Griffith and "forgets to kill him." As for me, I think that Guts isn't independent of fate but that his willpower has moved him into a dominant position within the flow of causality. He could be considered an avatar of the Idea's power more pure than even the God Hands -- their link to the ideal world has drawn them away from humanity, but Guts is fully human and truly exemplary of the effect that evil has on humans. Also, I think that while he hasn't done it yet, Guts has the potential to possibly overcome the Idea's influence one day, possibly by forgiving Griffith, and that that may be the beginning of the end of the Idea's dominance over humanity.

 

[Majin_Tenshi]

I don't think Idea has incredible control. He claims to have manipulated melenia of history so Grifith would be born. Idea's power comes from being eternal and being able to see the whole picture. Every time you tweek something, it snowballs. Idea needs only to have very slight control, and eternity to exercize it. I think you overestimate Idea's immidiate influence.
There seems to be no direct contact between apostles and Godhand or Idea. I'd guess the apostles went to the eclipse because they instinctively knew there would be a feast.

If something unexpected happens, it would likely snowball and eventualy tear the entire plan apart. Changing all of humanity takes time, so the key word is eventualy.

Gambino didn't have any desire to pick up Guts. He was strongly opposed to the idea anyways.

 

[Nabeshin]

I don't think the Idea's power is godlike or omnipotent, I was just explaining that viewpoint as part of the case I was making. The Idea's power is subtle and its plans are carried out over ages -- Chapter 83 made that clear -- but it is not to be underestimated. I think the Idea and the God Hands can subconsciously influence apostles, not because they share any special connection with them, but because they exercise the same power over regular people. I'm not saying Void would flip through his apostle rolodex and page the most promising candidates telling them to get out there and waste that Black Swordsman, but they would rather be mentally nudged in Guts' direction if the Powers That Be indeed had it in for him. And I didn't mean to say Gambino wanted to keep Guts; Shizu did and if the Idea wanted Guts to die under that tree it would only need to slightly strengthen Gambino's resolve and weaken Shizu's. So, I don't think the Idea has it in for Guts, especially considering that its representatives ignored their big chance to kill him in Volume 3. Besides, vendettas against one man just don't seem like a God Hand thing to do; they recognize that every person has their appointed role in the great scheme of things. Guts is still within the flow of causality, although his role is a major one, and it may be possible for him to eventually step out of that role and seriously disrupt the flow.