Th3Branded0ne
I'll be back.
Now the series is tied, so with both wins at home from both teams it seems this is turning interesting.
グリフィス said:Glad to get that one, but still need to get game 2. Don't know how much we learned from that one either, Boston just looked bad, doubt they'll play like that again. Fearful the Lakers will let down and Boston will come out furious.
m said:Feeling the heat yet?
Th3Branded0ne said:It looks good on paper, but I"m also predicting some ego wars on the inside.
グリフィス said:http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/miami_cheat.jpg
グリフィス said:This is the perfect NBA team, city, and situation for real NBA fans to root against, and for phony frontrunner fans to jump on the bandwagon with
m said:What would you say made them cheaters?
m said:And it hasn't been like this with the Lakers?
グリフィス said:Like rumors of player collusion confirmed by Bosh, the recent signing of Haslem at way below market value with the likely arrangement of more money later, which is salary cap-tampering.
グリフィス said:Plus, if you did this in a video game, it'd be cheating, so why not in real life?
グリフィス said:They're basically doing what Mr. Burns did to win his softball bet at the power plant. They're cheating the system and taking the easy way out, literally and figuratively.
グリフィス said:Look at LeBron for instance, he couldn't win with a team built around him, so he had to join a super team with D Wade (remember how "Kobe couldn't win without Shaq", LeBron just signed up for some of that).
グリフィス said:See that flaming basketball in the logo? It now represents the integrity and competitive balance of the NBA... UP IN FLAMES!
グリフィス said:So, even if this is unfair, it's just stickin' it to 'em all the more. It's better to devalue their probable future accomplishments now, and it works whether they win or lose. Trust me, I thought this through. =)
グリフィス said:How dare you! Haha, yeah, I'm going to enjoy that knock on another city, the Heat are now the Yankees of basketball, and really, they're even worse. LA is a real basketball town, it's a Lakers town, it has a rich history, it's the most storied Franchise in the NBA.
グリフィス said:Miami isn't, they had a top 4 player in the league killing himself and throwing up crazy numbers to make the playoffs, and he was doing it in front of a half empty arena!
グリフィス said:LA may have the phonies in the front rows, there to be seen, but the rest of the arena is filled with real fans, thick or thin. Also, I'm not just attacking Miami people, but all the national frontrunners, mercenary fans, and hangers on that are going to gravitate towards the Heat now, to bask in their glory. These are the same people that were pretending to be Cavs fans all these years, hitching their wagon to LeBron, and waiting to celebrate all the titles he won (oops). That kind of fan has no team, the losses don't affect them, and their victory is hollow (ironically, LeBron is one of these himself, rooting for the Yankees, Cowboys, and Bulls despite being from Cleveland, because they were all dynasties in the 90's when he was growing up... see, he abandoned his home long ago, not to mention he's like the worst frontrunner ever, even doing it professionally now =). Hopefully, the Heat will even take some of our fake fans with them.
グリフィス said:It's funny, I've been getting that a lot. First and foremost, it's just a derisive nickname, like the LA Fakers (are they really "faking"?). So, I'm being facetious, but they're are some reasons behind it, some factual, some metaphorical.
m said:I think I read an article where Stern said that the players were allowed to talk to each other, he also seems to have said that they had no reason to launch an investigation. If the commissioner doesn't say anything, what else is there to do?
m said:And to think that it's usually in video games where people get to do things they can't do in real life.
Again, if the powers that are supposed to enforce the rules are not doing anything about it, is it really cheating?
m said:You said it yourself, even Kobe wasn't able to win until they gave him a fairly good team (or Gasol, whichever you prefer), or are you saying that you think he could have won with the Cavs had he been in LeBron's place? Maybe LeBron would have done better if he had somebody like Kupchak to steal him his own Gasol.
m said:Competitive balance? Has there been such a thing in the recent times? If the league has been so balanced how come there have been only 7 different champions in the last 26 years? And lets not forget the repeats and threepeats.
m said:So if they win their win will be worth less than somebody else's just because they are a super team like you called it? Or is it because they would have cheated?
m said:I think the Lakers are the Yankees of basketball. Your description of the Lakers matches the Yankees so much you could just change the names and people wouldn't be able to disagree, except maybe for the fact that in New York there are more Mets fans than there are Clippers fans in LA.
m said:It's funny you brought up the Yankees, the other team I really don't like.
m said:So the only difference between the last couple of years Heat and the post-Shaq pre Gasol Lakers is that the Lakers had a house full of real fans.
I think we agree that there will be fake fans supporting the team that is doing well, or has the potential to do so, and we also agree that the Lakers had their fair share of those too, so the Heat is not the only team perfect for this.
グリフィス said:You quoted everything in my post except the first sentence that set the tone!
グリフィス said:Not the same thing. First, LeBron deserves part of the blame for not getting help, they couldn't get him good free agents because he was constantly holding his possible departure over the franchise. Again and again good players opted not to go to Cleveland in the off season because LeBron wouldn't give them any guarantee he was going to be there going forward.
グリフィス said:Second, I find it hilarious that people are equating forming an all-star super team (literally, their big three are going to be the Eastern starters in the all-star game at their position) with traditional roster upgrades or even lopsided trades.
グリフィス said:This is unprecedented for a reason, you can't compare it to Kobe getting to play with a guy that had zero playoff wins before they teamed up (Gasol is great, God bless him, but he's not a superstar).
グリフィス said:Anyway, now that I know who you dislike, which team do you root for, friend?
m said:Why is it not the same thing? Kobe wasn't winning with a team built around him and he got to the point of asking out. Surely getting Kobe free agents shouldn't have been that much easier in that situation. He only calmed down when he got what he thought was missing for him to be able to win in LA. LeBron is partly to blame for not getting help for sure but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Cavs' front office failed at giving LeBron what he needed to feel confident he could win with them and that that may be the reason why he felt he needed to leave. Perhaps things might not have turned out so well for Kobe and the Lakers had they not gotten Gasol at the right time like they did.
m said:Just nitpicking here but can you really call the Heat an all-star super team? They do certainly have three superstars but what about the rest of the team? I don't think they'll be anywhere near that level.
m said:I wasn't trying to say that LeBron joining the Heat is the same as the Lakers getting Gasol. What I was trying to say is that the Lakers got Gasol and with him they got the last piece they needed to become serious contenders, and that if LeBron had gotten his missing last piece in time, perhaps he wouldn't have jumped ship. The Cavs had a team good enough to have the best record in the league so they surely couldn't be that far from becoming real contenders. I was also trying to say what I've said before that if the Lakers hadn't traded for Gasol, Kobe may very well have been the one to jump ship.
m said:The team that plays the Lakers. Seriously though, I can't call myself fan of a particular team, I don't know why but in all the years I've followed the league no team has had that kind of impact on me. I like basketball, both watching it and playing it (though I literally haven't played in years because I haven't had somebody to play it with) and following the NBA but no favorite team.
グリフィス said:It's not the same thing because the Lakers are still built around Kobe Bryant. Those 06-07 teams weren't just built around Kobe, they were Kobe or bust. They had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown starting on them, and those guy were practically out of the league after that. If not for him, those teams wouldn't have even won 20 games, and he dragged them to the playoffs and within a rebound of upsetting the second seeded Suns. Even if Kobe had left that squad, it would have been for another team built around him, he wasn't trying to join Dwayne Wade's team. What's happened with LeBron has really never happened before (even an MVP leaving his team in free agency like this is unprecedented), and I'm already tired of people revising all of NBA history in order to rationalize things for LeBron (not only erroneously comparing it to Kobe's situation, but even MJ, Bird, and Magic). I say to them, either don't mind that he's taking a different, arguably easier, path, or just stop rationalizing that it's the same as all the other great players that have led teams to championships, a group LeBron has yet to and may never join now. At least make him earn it before we reshape his legacy, same as Kobe.
BTW, here's what MJ himself had to say about it:
"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team. But...things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."
グリフィス said:Seriously though, in addition to 3 out of the 5 Eastern conference all-star starters on their team, they've already signed better role players than anyone thought they'd get, serviceable guys that could be starters on other teams. This is a super team already, and they're only going to get better players in the years to come.
グリフィス said:They COULD have become real contenders? They won over 60 games, had the best record, top seed, and the MVP the last two years! They weren't just real contenders, they were the favorites to win it all! It came down to them not performing in the playoffs, that's all. Failing to win the games they needed to win, again and again. On paper, they were heavily favored to win both series they last the last two years. When they traded for Jamison, that was supposed to be the missing piece that put them over the top (I thought so as well). But, at some point, you have to play the games and have the heart to win against teams that aren't just going to roll over for you, and as a matter of fact, are more inspired against you because you're the best, so you'd better play like it. It's not like the Lakers just steamrolled the league in the playoffs the last two years (kind of like the Cavs did in the '09 playoffs, winning each game by 10 and sweeping every series until they were actually, ya know, challenged), the Lakers had to compete and earn those victories in hard fought playoff series and games that could have gone either way (I don't think we'd be making excuses for them had they lost =). LeBron and the Cavs were in position to compete the same way, but simply failed to live up to their potential. I still don't know how the Cavs lost really, other than they just wilted, it was honestly like watching a totally different team. I was deathly afraid they were going to beat the Lakers in the finals the past two years they looked so invincible, yet they just kept coming up small when it mattered most. Both teams were in position to win the title, the Cavs actually in better position than the Lakers with the top seed and homecourt, but while Kobe and the Lakers had to find a way to win, LeBron and the Cavs meanwhile kept finding ways to lose. At some point you just have to blame the players for not performing, LeBron included.
グリフィス said:Well, I'm sure I can guess which team you're gravitating towards next year.
グリフィス said:Seriously, why hate the Lakers though? You don't have to like them, but if they haven't beaten your team, if it's not personal, aren't you just hating greatness? I'm not just being a homer here, I feel the same about people hating the Spurs or the Patriots before they fell off, why hate teams just for being great? That's what they're supposed to be doing. I don't know, I've always hated teams that are undeserving, that constantly underachieve, or are seemingly forever mired in suckage from top to bottom, that torture their fans, that don't even try, teams that are a disgrace, basically.
m said:Rather than rationalize LeBrons decision, I think I'm trying to say that perhaps Kobe wouldn't have acted all that differently had the pieces fallen for him the way they did for LeBron.
m said:Also, I personally haven't revised all NBA history, I have only mentioned Kobe and the Lakers.
m said:You say that if Kobe had left he would have done so for a team built around him, and I say sure, but perhaps that's because he already had three rings won alongside a superstar and he was set to prove he could win one on his own.
m said:I agree, they have definitely done better at signing other players than anyone thought they would at first, but those role players they have are just that, and while one can go as far as call this a super team like you said, calling it an all-star super team is a stretch.
m said:Favorites to win it all? Really? That's not how I perceived things. People were definitely wishing for/expecting a Lakers-Cavaliers finals but to favor the more inexperienced Cavs over the defending champions? Really?
Things done in the playoffs will not necessarily reflect what was done during the regular season and we can find examples in both directions just from last season: the Cavs failing to win and the Celtics doing what few thought they could (even late in the regular season); so having the best record (and with that the top seed) should not translate to the Cavs being favorites and it certainly didn't in my book.
m said:I think the Lakers came on top because they had players that picked up the slack when Kobe wasn't at his best (Gasol and Artest on game 7 against the Celtics just to give an example) and I don't think LeBron had the same kind of support during the playoffs.
m said:Well the Celtics, of course.
m said:The key issue here is that I'd feel the same way for the Lakers whether they kept on winning titles or had the worst record in the league in consecutive years.
グリフィス said:And I don't think that's fair to say, as a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary. Kobe was going to go to Chicago and play on a team built around him, he wasn't going to piggyback on a team that already had a superstar of his caliber. LeBron is doing something very unique, and comparing it to Kobe is a stretch no matter how hypothetical you want to get. Anyway, what happened, happened.
グリフィス said:That's a fair point, but it goes back to the fact that Kobe wanted that challenge, and maybe LeBron doesn't. Instead, he's choosing the path of least resistance one could say.
グリフィス said:Not at all. Every team has role players (even the Yankees), not every team has the two best players in the league and a top 3 big man to boot. As a matter of fact, no team does. So, stop already with the artificially deflated expectations. =)
グリフィス said:That's hindsight being 20/20. Hell yeah they were the favorites, both seasons. Of course we don't think of them as the favorites now, but at the time they certainly were, not only in the two series they lost, but to win it all both years. Just as the Lakers were clearly expected to get to the finals, and were certainly contenders to win, but there were plenty of questions regarding their health and chemistry going into the playoffs. Conversely, nobody expected the Celtics' run until it happened.
グリフィス said:Ewww, really? That Celtics team is less likable than even the Lakers. Ever since they won in '08 they've been very arrogant and demonstrative towards their opponents, and not very well respected around the league for it. Not to mention they play an ugly style now that relies more on fouling than basketball skill (it's the only way they can win at this point). Liking the Suns or Orlando I understand, but these Celtics have been a bigger group of entitled jerks than anybody the last couple of years. I hope Miami puts them in their place next season, a bunch of old has-beens (I'm just worried the Lakers then join them in that category =).
グリフィス said:That's my point, it's totally arbitrary!
m said:But I never said Kobe would have gone to a team that had a superstar, all I said was the if he hadn't gotten Gasol, chances are he would have left, and that is not too far-fetched to think.
m said:And Kobe wanted the challenge after having taken a path of least resistance with Shaq, and round and round we go. Perhaps LeBron will want the same challenge if he ever gets three rings.
m said:If the Heat have the two best players in the league and Kobe doesn't play for the Heat then Kobe is not in the two top players in the league. Did I read that right?
m said:It's not deflated expectations at all. This Heat team simply does not strike me as an all-star super team. Do you want to know what a team much closer to an all-star super team is to me? No problem, that team is called Barcelona FC.
m said:I can honestly say the Cavs were never the favorites to me, not then, not now.
m said:I was just kidding. As I said, I like following the league, but that doesn't mean I have to gravitate towards a certain team, right?
m said:And I don't deny it. But that is how it works with some of one's likes and dislikes, isn't it?
グリフィス said:Kobe didn't choose that path at all though, he was drafted into that situation, it was beyond his control, and he wrestled with that and even over control of that team with Shaq until he got it to himself; again, diametrically opposed to this situation in every way, haha. So, around and around you go with that. =)
グリフィス said:I'm being generous in my projection, Kobe's more skilled and more accomplished certainly, but he's going to be 32 years old with injury concerns when this season starts, while Wade and LeBron are still in their prime, and Durant is still green. I'm just being honest and realistic here. LeBron is more productive player than Michael Jordan is today as well, for what that's worth... though still not as ready to lead a team, obviously.
グリフィス said:True, but you already sound primed to suck up to the half-king's of the Heat and their attempt to gang rape the championship.
グリフィス said:Yeah, but I think you have reasons. There's Kobe, there's the recent and historical success, the money, the city, showtime, the fairweather/celebrity fans. I understand what about the Lakers drives people crazy, it's just strange coming from someone without a rooting interest otherwise. It's like you're from the dark side, you don't love anybody, you just hate. You're a hater.
m said:I never said he chose it, I said he took it, and that he did. I don't remember seeing him complaining when he got those three rings, though, but I guess he was just making the best out of the situation.
m said:I can't believe it, you, the Lakers ardent fan, don't think that Kobe is in the two top players in the league while I, the Laker hater, do. Go figure.
m said:As long as the Lakers get some of that in the process....
m said:Oh, but I am a fan of some teams, just not in American sports; so I'm only partly hater. An example of a team I root for? No problem, Barcelona FC.