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medievald00d
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wait...this is Serpico Vs. Griffith....Not Serpico Vs. Guts...I have no doubt that Guts would make mincemeat out of Serpico if he got a little mad....
Serpico vs Griffith
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I think its important to point out that both times Serpico attacked Guts, it was a suprise attack. The first time he took a swing at Guts after pretending to be friendly and non-hostile. Also keep in mind Guts was half dead, been fighting demons all night, and was covered in wounds, including a large one on his sword hand.
The second time, Serpico suprise attacked Guts. He couldn't even draw his sword because he was on a tiny ledge, and Serpico was attacking and unarmed Guts. Guts finnally disarmed him and was about to whoop on Serpico, but Serpico ran away.
Both of Serpico's attacks where suprise attacks and he didn't come close to winning either. The only reason he even touched Guts was because he used cheap shots when Guts wasn't prepared for combat.
On the other hand, the last Griffith/Guts duel, Guts was completely healed, completely focused, and knew griffith would not let him go with out a fight. This was a fight Guts knew he had to fight. He was at his top physical and mental peak.
Griffith on the other hand was emotionally blinded and couldn't concentrate.
Griffith had also been in hundreds of battles before, where as Serpico was much less experienced. Also Griffith would probably fight much less honorable, and be prepared use any means nesseccary to kill Serpico, beyond what Serpico would ever expect.
I say that Pre-toture griffith would defeat Serpico.
The second time, Serpico suprise attacked Guts. He couldn't even draw his sword because he was on a tiny ledge, and Serpico was attacking and unarmed Guts. Guts finnally disarmed him and was about to whoop on Serpico, but Serpico ran away.
Both of Serpico's attacks where suprise attacks and he didn't come close to winning either. The only reason he even touched Guts was because he used cheap shots when Guts wasn't prepared for combat.
On the other hand, the last Griffith/Guts duel, Guts was completely healed, completely focused, and knew griffith would not let him go with out a fight. This was a fight Guts knew he had to fight. He was at his top physical and mental peak.
Griffith on the other hand was emotionally blinded and couldn't concentrate.
Griffith had also been in hundreds of battles before, where as Serpico was much less experienced. Also Griffith would probably fight much less honorable, and be prepared use any means nesseccary to kill Serpico, beyond what Serpico would ever expect.
I say that Pre-toture griffith would defeat Serpico.
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medievald00d
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ok...we ARE talking about 2 DIFFERENT Gut's that fought. the one the fought Serpico was post-eclipse, meaning that he had increased stamina, power, and speed. Also, Guts had been fighting those night spirits for years as well as fight apostles within days of each other. If Guts would be half dead after fighting demons all night, he wouldnt be alive to continue the series.
you said Guts was completely healed, completely focused? He was 15, he DID NOT HAVE PUCK to heal him. He still had an wound that probably had not closed. He lost so much blood from the stab wound he was unconscious for days and had to have caska warm him. He woke up a few days later. Does all the blood he lost come back? Maybe, if they had blood transfutions... ::)
Tell you what. drain yourself of a enough pints of blood to pass out. Have someone stitch it up. Then, dont get a blood transfusion, and come back and tell me if your at your "top physical and mental peak" ;)
Serpico had to fight Post-Eclipse Guts. Griffith fought 15 year old injured Guts....
Post Eclipse Guts could wipe Griffith, Serpico, and a whole F****** army and still not break a damned sweat. You think slaying 100 mercenaries would be a problem for Post Eclipse Guts?
--edited for grammatical errors (I tend to be a bit picky on those)
you said Guts was completely healed, completely focused? He was 15, he DID NOT HAVE PUCK to heal him. He still had an wound that probably had not closed. He lost so much blood from the stab wound he was unconscious for days and had to have caska warm him. He woke up a few days later. Does all the blood he lost come back? Maybe, if they had blood transfutions... ::)
Tell you what. drain yourself of a enough pints of blood to pass out. Have someone stitch it up. Then, dont get a blood transfusion, and come back and tell me if your at your "top physical and mental peak" ;)
Serpico had to fight Post-Eclipse Guts. Griffith fought 15 year old injured Guts....
Post Eclipse Guts could wipe Griffith, Serpico, and a whole F****** army and still not break a damned sweat. You think slaying 100 mercenaries would be a problem for Post Eclipse Guts?
--edited for grammatical errors (I tend to be a bit picky on those)
>>you said Guts was completely healed, completely focused? He >>was 15, he DID NOT HAVE PUCK to heal him.
I was talking about the last battle where Gut defeated Griffith. Not when we was 15. The last message was a post comparing the fighting skills of Serpico VS. Griffith. You took it out of context.
I was saying Serpico only survived fighting Guts because he snuck up on Griffith, and Guts didn't even try.
The argument i made was to reinforce the Serpico VS. Griffith debate, Via how they faired against guts. Never in my last post did i refer to the first Griffith VS. Guts battle as you suggested. Maybe if you actually read the post before you typed your own, you would relize your arguing against something i never said. Think before you type.
Also keep in mind the first night he battle Serpico he was so weak he had collapsed in the middle of the battle. Serpico is a wussy, Griffith would romp him.
Now imagine pre-torture griffith in the same position, on the cliff side. He would have done much better against guts with all those advantages.
So once again i asert, pre-torture Griffith (at the end of his campaign) would beat pre-magic serpico.
I was talking about the last battle where Gut defeated Griffith. Not when we was 15. The last message was a post comparing the fighting skills of Serpico VS. Griffith. You took it out of context.
I was saying Serpico only survived fighting Guts because he snuck up on Griffith, and Guts didn't even try.
The argument i made was to reinforce the Serpico VS. Griffith debate, Via how they faired against guts. Never in my last post did i refer to the first Griffith VS. Guts battle as you suggested. Maybe if you actually read the post before you typed your own, you would relize your arguing against something i never said. Think before you type.
Also keep in mind the first night he battle Serpico he was so weak he had collapsed in the middle of the battle. Serpico is a wussy, Griffith would romp him.
Now imagine pre-torture griffith in the same position, on the cliff side. He would have done much better against guts with all those advantages.
So once again i asert, pre-torture Griffith (at the end of his campaign) would beat pre-magic serpico.
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medievald00d
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In your previous statement, you make no direct statement as to which duel. You said, and i quote, "Guts was completely healed". Guts had nothing to heal from in the second duel with Griffith. Therefore i assumed you were talking of the first duel. I still do not know which post you were reffering to
"I was saying Serpico only survived fighting Guts because he snuck up on Griffith"
And there was no clear cut victor in that scenario. Guts however, beat Griffith on the second duel in one strike. Explain to me how this makes Griffith better. Oh yea, you DO realize that the term "snuck up" means surprise? As in, Guts would have to have no idea where Serpico was when he attacked? But wait, as i recall, Guts fired arrows at Serpico, then tossed bombs at him on the cliff before they dueled! If anything, Guts surprised Serpico. Oh yea, watch what you type, its "snuck up on Guts" not "snuck up on Griffith"
"Also keep in mind the first night he battle Serpico he was so weak he had collapsed in the middle of the battle. Serpico is a wussy, Griffith would romp him. "
I'm surprised you cant (or didnt) recall the Lost Children arc. Guts fought off an army of human sized insects that took up nearly as much stamina, and did much more damage than the dogs that fought Guts the night before the Serpico VS Guts duel. My point? Guts, after taking in severe damage from the human sized insects, still had enough energy to kill Roshinu. And run from the H.I.C.K.'s and kill 6 or 7 of them. You're saying that a bunch of wild dogs attacking Guts all night would make him half dead?
"Also keep in mind the first night he battle Serpico he was so weak he had collapsed in the middle of the battle."
I see no evidence of this. I do see him resting from a long fight and basking in the sunlight. In fact, the only time i've seen Guts collapse in the MIDDLE of battle was his fight against the H.I.C.K.'s, in which he was half dead;and I do mean half dead.
"Now imagine pre-torture griffith in the same position, on the cliff side. He would have done much better against guts with all those advantages"
Ok. I will. Griffith has superior strategy, but in the end Guts will break his sword. Guts always breaks those flimsy swords. Then Guts will proceed to toss Griffith over the cliff. Griffith, not being as gymnastically adept as Serpico, will not be able to hoist himself up the cliff very fast. Guts will stomp on his fingers, Griffith will fall to his death. Serpico's advantage was his agility, strategy, and adaptability. Griffith never showed adaptability in the manga, because his strategies never failed. He never had to improvise.
"Think before you type."
I do, thats why i dont make quite as many mistakes.
One more thing. You forget that pre-torture Griffith never fought Post-Eclipse Guts. This makes a big difference, because Post-Eclipse Guts has more stamina, speed, and strength than Pre-Eclipse Guts.
Ok...i typed enough. I doubt you would have any serious counters to any of the arguments i've made. Read volumes 14-16 to see the Lost Children arc. That was him half dead. Fighting dogs was nothing.
"I was saying Serpico only survived fighting Guts because he snuck up on Griffith"
And there was no clear cut victor in that scenario. Guts however, beat Griffith on the second duel in one strike. Explain to me how this makes Griffith better. Oh yea, you DO realize that the term "snuck up" means surprise? As in, Guts would have to have no idea where Serpico was when he attacked? But wait, as i recall, Guts fired arrows at Serpico, then tossed bombs at him on the cliff before they dueled! If anything, Guts surprised Serpico. Oh yea, watch what you type, its "snuck up on Guts" not "snuck up on Griffith"
"Also keep in mind the first night he battle Serpico he was so weak he had collapsed in the middle of the battle. Serpico is a wussy, Griffith would romp him. "
I'm surprised you cant (or didnt) recall the Lost Children arc. Guts fought off an army of human sized insects that took up nearly as much stamina, and did much more damage than the dogs that fought Guts the night before the Serpico VS Guts duel. My point? Guts, after taking in severe damage from the human sized insects, still had enough energy to kill Roshinu. And run from the H.I.C.K.'s and kill 6 or 7 of them. You're saying that a bunch of wild dogs attacking Guts all night would make him half dead?
"Also keep in mind the first night he battle Serpico he was so weak he had collapsed in the middle of the battle."
I see no evidence of this. I do see him resting from a long fight and basking in the sunlight. In fact, the only time i've seen Guts collapse in the MIDDLE of battle was his fight against the H.I.C.K.'s, in which he was half dead;and I do mean half dead.
"Now imagine pre-torture griffith in the same position, on the cliff side. He would have done much better against guts with all those advantages"
Ok. I will. Griffith has superior strategy, but in the end Guts will break his sword. Guts always breaks those flimsy swords. Then Guts will proceed to toss Griffith over the cliff. Griffith, not being as gymnastically adept as Serpico, will not be able to hoist himself up the cliff very fast. Guts will stomp on his fingers, Griffith will fall to his death. Serpico's advantage was his agility, strategy, and adaptability. Griffith never showed adaptability in the manga, because his strategies never failed. He never had to improvise.
"Think before you type."
I do, thats why i dont make quite as many mistakes.
One more thing. You forget that pre-torture Griffith never fought Post-Eclipse Guts. This makes a big difference, because Post-Eclipse Guts has more stamina, speed, and strength than Pre-Eclipse Guts.
Ok...i typed enough. I doubt you would have any serious counters to any of the arguments i've made. Read volumes 14-16 to see the Lost Children arc. That was him half dead. Fighting dogs was nothing.
Azn He-Man666
Was it you who killed my companions,one after one?
Griffith has superior strategy yet Serpico's advantages were agility, STRATEGY, and adaptability hmmmm... HAR HAR THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE! ;Dmedievald00d said:
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medievald00d
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whoops, my bad. I'll think more before i type...i meant to say speed...cuzz u know, Griffith never fought on foot, only on horseback...(with the exception of the duels w/Guts)
are you daft?? The first battle with Serpico (which wasn't much of a battle at all) was DIRECTLY after that night he battle with Roshinu! So basically half dead passed out Guts had only hours of rest before battling the dogs and escaping. So yes he was still very hurt from that battle fairy dust or not.
Also you say griffith would have got his sword broke in the second battle? In case you don't recall, Guts wasn't able to draw his sword! The cliff was two narrow and Serpico wouldn't let him. Griffith would have done the same thing, except would have had a suprise up his sleave.
Also what makes you so sure Serpico is faster ayway? All serpico ever did his whole life was duel stinky french noble men. He had hardly any experience against real sword fighters. Hell, have we ever seen Serpico actually fight in any real battles or even suggest that Serpico fought in any kind kind of war? NO! During the entire fight with Mozgus he was sitting there gawking like a little girl! Yea, some fighter he is.
Griffith on the other hand had been a front line fighter leading his troops into battle, and fighting with them through hundreds of battles and survived without a single wound. Last time some crazy shit went down with an apostle type creature he got in there like pronto and actually cut up Transformed Super Zodd! (Zodd later whooped them both, but thats cause he's immortal and can reattach his arms). Serpico couldn't even hope to step to that!
Serpico is a whiny little pussy noble, who Miura let live because he didn't want to kill him off. He lost his battle to unarmed Gutts and only survived it because he was need for the plot.
I think the duel would go something like this:
Serpico: en guarde!
Serpico: Ow! you cut off my hand! No fair!
Griffith: Shut up..... pebble.
Griffith: *sticks serpico in eye*
Also you say griffith would have got his sword broke in the second battle? In case you don't recall, Guts wasn't able to draw his sword! The cliff was two narrow and Serpico wouldn't let him. Griffith would have done the same thing, except would have had a suprise up his sleave.
Also what makes you so sure Serpico is faster ayway? All serpico ever did his whole life was duel stinky french noble men. He had hardly any experience against real sword fighters. Hell, have we ever seen Serpico actually fight in any real battles or even suggest that Serpico fought in any kind kind of war? NO! During the entire fight with Mozgus he was sitting there gawking like a little girl! Yea, some fighter he is.
Griffith on the other hand had been a front line fighter leading his troops into battle, and fighting with them through hundreds of battles and survived without a single wound. Last time some crazy shit went down with an apostle type creature he got in there like pronto and actually cut up Transformed Super Zodd! (Zodd later whooped them both, but thats cause he's immortal and can reattach his arms). Serpico couldn't even hope to step to that!
Serpico is a whiny little pussy noble, who Miura let live because he didn't want to kill him off. He lost his battle to unarmed Gutts and only survived it because he was need for the plot.
I think the duel would go something like this:
Serpico: en guarde!
Serpico: Ow! you cut off my hand! No fair!
Griffith: Shut up..... pebble.
Griffith: *sticks serpico in eye*
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medievald00d
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1. It was a full day, including Puck's fairy dust. Thats all Post-Eclipse Guts needs to completely/nearly completely heal. Also i would like to point out that Guts killed Wild, and a day later survived the eclipse. Without fairy dust. Guts is strong. Very strong.
2. Guts broke Griffith's sword in their second duel. Guts broke Serpico's sword with his hand. Guts nearly broke Griffith's sword with his teeth (well, more like held on tightly)
3. There is no proof of Serpico's speed. I am assuming that he is fast because Muira drew his duels with Guts and Serpico that way. Also, Guts says that he is very fast on the cliff.
4. Serpico hates blood. Thats why he chose not to fight in any wars. Griffith was a frontline fighter in a war. Dueling with one person and fighting with multiple people is completely different. Serpico may have died within 5 minutes of a war, but he could duel quite well.
5. Serpico wouldnt start the fight. He tends to be more pacifistic. The only real advantage I see with Griffith in a duel with Serpico is his armour. Serpico would have one hell of a time piercing Griffith's armour. That being said, Serpico probably has a speed advantage over Griffith because his suit of armour is probably weighing him down.
2. Guts broke Griffith's sword in their second duel. Guts broke Serpico's sword with his hand. Guts nearly broke Griffith's sword with his teeth (well, more like held on tightly)
3. There is no proof of Serpico's speed. I am assuming that he is fast because Muira drew his duels with Guts and Serpico that way. Also, Guts says that he is very fast on the cliff.
4. Serpico hates blood. Thats why he chose not to fight in any wars. Griffith was a frontline fighter in a war. Dueling with one person and fighting with multiple people is completely different. Serpico may have died within 5 minutes of a war, but he could duel quite well.
5. Serpico wouldnt start the fight. He tends to be more pacifistic. The only real advantage I see with Griffith in a duel with Serpico is his armour. Serpico would have one hell of a time piercing Griffith's armour. That being said, Serpico probably has a speed advantage over Griffith because his suit of armour is probably weighing him down.
James_A said:
Are u sure Griffith wasnt concentrated at all at that time?
The 1st encounter with Serpico might be a surprise attack, but he still managed to stratch his face without losing both his legs...
James, It would be hard for Griffith to win the match with Serpico. Griffith might have potential in swordskills, but he is still some way behind Serpico in term of that. Or... you can say surprise attack is not fair, but in a real battle, even Griffith skills is way above Serpico but still dies in his hand during an ambush, who do u think still merge as the winner?
There is one thing for sure that Serp can be better than Griffith, that is the strategy to defeat a opponent stronger than yourself! (i dont remember Griffith have that)
Lliugusamui
around the corner
Griffith doesn't have that ??! You gota be kidding me ! How do you think Griffith succeeded in becoming the White Phoenix General. It was all about war strategy and mind games. And he had the best strategy to beat physically his opponents : sending Guts^^.Smith said:
Guil
Griffith would win. Serpico is vastly overestimated b/c he was able to scratch guts when preforming a surprize attack. Everyone who says griffith wouldnt be suited to duel Serpico is wrong, simple because you all base your ideas of Serpico on the fact that he "scratched" Guts with a surprized attack, and that Griffith lost his 2nd duel with Guts. You think b/c he lost hes not a stratagist? Did it not show you his thoughts, he thought his sword would hold out, it didnt. Griff has better dueling skills than you would think.
Ill admit that Serpico seems strong, but i doubt hes that good. Hes quick, smart and tactful, but still. How many times has serpico killed someone? Ill bet its below 2 (he did end up killing his mom by burnin her at the stake). Griffith unlike Serpico has ambition. Griffith knows what he wants and will do what he has to, to achieve his dream, remember this is post femto Griff were talkin about.
Serpico also wouldnt be able to kill him, since he cant fuck with casualty.
Ill admit that Serpico seems strong, but i doubt hes that good. Hes quick, smart and tactful, but still. How many times has serpico killed someone? Ill bet its below 2 (he did end up killing his mom by burnin her at the stake). Griffith unlike Serpico has ambition. Griffith knows what he wants and will do what he has to, to achieve his dream, remember this is post femto Griff were talkin about.
Serpico also wouldnt be able to kill him, since he cant fuck with casualty.
It's becoming more and more obvious most ppl on these boards dont read Berserk that well.
*looks into vol21, see's Serpico killing three Kushans b4 they can even attack Serpico.
Oh, and btw, Serpico is fast. He dodged Gutz's arrows at point blank range. The fact that Griffith couldnt even dodge Gutz's sword, I'd say Serpico is much faster.
*looks into vol21, see's Serpico killing three Kushans b4 they can even attack Serpico.
Oh, and btw, Serpico is fast. He dodged Gutz's arrows at point blank range. The fact that Griffith couldnt even dodge Gutz's sword, I'd say Serpico is much faster.
Locke11 said:
That is the point, He thought he could hold out, yes this was the main purpose for him to defeat, but it is still a mistake, but it is too costly for make such a mistake becz Griffith might had been 2 pieces if Gutz was aware of his future...
Yes i admit Serpico did make the same mistake, but at least he avoided death by evading Gutz arrows and manage to steal and stole his bomb be4 Gutz can do anything further... And that require skills
Now let us return back to the Gutz vs Griffith duel be4 the esclipse, do u think Griffith is able to avoid that blow if Gutz wasnt showing any mercy? Base on the scar on his shoulder, i guess the answer is not...
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medievald00d
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Locke11 said:
sur·prise [ sr prz ]
transitive verb (past sur·prised, past participle sur·prised, present participle sur·pris·ing, 3rd person present singular sur·pris·es)
1. make somebody amazed: to cause somebody to feel sudden wonder or amazement, especially because of something unexpected
2. take somebody or something unaware: to attack, come upon, or catch somebody or something unexpectedly
1. No one notices that Guts surprises Serpico more than Serpico surprises Guts. Guts nearly kills him with his arrows and bombs, and Serpico is hanging on to the cliff with just his hands. I'd say Serpico was more surprised
2. A good strategy is a strategy that works. Griff might have believed his sword would hold, but it didnt. That obviously wasnt a good strategy.
3. Of course Serpico cant kill Griff. Serpico at that age would have been 8 or 9. Thats why this Forum's name is "Speculation Nation"
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