The Key to Killing Griffith

[ThisIsMyDeclarationOfWar]

So I've been rereading the newest chapters (Fantasia arc and beyond) and I've been thinking about how Guts will end up posing any kind of threat to Griffith, especially after he got his ass handed to him on Elfhelm. One thing that I actually didn't notice on the first 2 reads was that on one stroke of his Dragonslayer, Guts was able to cut a single strand of hair off of Griffiths head.

Now a lot of things have been pointing to Dragonslayer being a special sword. We all know how dangerous it is in the hands of Guts, but as he started to kill more and more apostles and other creatures of the astral realm, his blade started to develop special qualities. When he first got his sword, it was just a hunk of iron. But then by end the of the Millennium Falcon arcs, he was able to harm literal sea gods and the pseudo forms of the God Hand.

I think Guts' sword is being tempered to injure Griffith on a deeper plain of the astral realm.

Maybe the last step for Guts is to kill a godhand?

Thoughts?

 

[Aazealh]

I don't think it's going to just be a matter of making the Dragon Slayer more lethal. Rather, they will need to find a way to nullify the maelstrom effect around Griffith (using magic), because that's what seems to divert all attacks against him. Case in point: Rickert's open palm struck just fine despite not having cut through thousands of evil spirits.

We might have had more clues if we had seen the end of the Elf Island chapter by Kentarou Miura, but I do think the above is a solid guess.

 

[manvsdestiny]

Guts cutting griffiths hair could be the chink in the armor eventually but guts is not gonna do it alone imma guess predominantly by magic and the moonlight boy there gonna find a way to banish/kill him at least corporeally.

 

[sangattsu]

My guess is that Miura's original intent was for the Moonlight Boy to play a pivotal role in Griffith's defeat. The Moonlight Boy is, in part, a result of Griffith's SA of Casca during the Eclipse, and I think it would be poetic justice for Griffith to be undone by that act of pure spite.

Do Mori or Studio Gaga know what Miura had planned for Griffith? I don't know, and I wouldn't be surprised if they end up going down the buffed Dragon Slayer route, but I doubt Miura was planning anything so simple as that.

 

[Gambler]

I don't think it's going to just be a matter of making the Dragon Slayer more lethal. Rather, they will need to find a way to nullify the maelstrom effect around Griffith (using magic), because that's what seems to divert all attacks against him. Case in point: Rickert's open palm struck just fine despite not having cut through thousands of evil spirits.

We might have had more clues if we had seen the end of the Elf Island chapter by Kentarou Miura, but I do think the above is a solid guess.

There is a theory that Rickert's slap was effective because he didn't hate Griffith, as said by Guts

Also, the one time Guts won against Griffith, he didn't want to kill him, he just wanted to find his own path in life

I believe this is a hint on how to defeat him

And I also can't help but notice how this relates a lot with how to "win" against a narcissist, because if you hate and fight against him, you lose, because you are still playing his games

 

[Aazealh]

There is a theory that Rickert's slap was effective because he didn't hate Griffith, as said by Guts

I don't see how this is supposed to work. Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, the one time Guts won against Griffith, he didn't want to kill him, he just wanted to find his own path in life

That's unrelated to Griffith's current powers. He was human back then.

I believe this is a hint on how to defeat him

Honestly I doubt it. Guts should move past blind revenge for his own sake, but "killing Griffith without animosity" sounds not only contrived, but also antithetical to Berserk as a series.

And I also can't help but notice how this relates a lot with how to "win" against a narcissist, because if you hate and fight against him, you lose, because you are still playing his games

Pretty sure if you knock a narcissist's teeth out, you're the one winning.

 

[Maco_2000]

There is a theory that Rickert's slap was effective because he didn't hate Griffith, as said by Guts

The only reason rickert was able to touch Griffith in that scene was because Griffith allowed it to happen. It’s reasonable to assume that Griffith has control over this ability. If Rickert’s hand phased through Griff’s face, his cover as a supernatural being would have been blown in front of Charlotte and the Pontiff in addition to some of his subordinates that were present in that scene. Not at all like the time that Kushan soldiers fired a bunch of arrows at him and they all missed; in that scenario, to onlookers, that seemed like a huge coincidence caused by actual divine intervention. Rickert’s hand phasing through his face would have been harder to explain

 

[Cyrus Jong]

The only reason rickert was able to touch Griffith in that scene was because Griffith allowed it to happen. It’s reasonable to assume that Griffith has control over this ability. If Rickert’s hand phased through Griff’s face, his cover as a supernatural being would have been blown in front of Charlotte and the Pontiff in addition to some of his subordinates that were present in that scene. Not at all like the time that Kushan soldiers fired a bunch of arrows at him and they all missed; in that scenario, to onlookers, that seemed like a huge coincidence caused by actual divine intervention. Rickert’s hand phasing through his face would have been harder to explain

Griffith's already a supernatural being in their eyes, and the eyes of everyone in Falconia. He's the Falcon of Light, the prophesied savior of mankind, envoy of God, etcetera, etcetera. They already know he's capable of doing great feats that can only be called miracles. He doesn't hide his powers at all, just their true nature. Unless avoiding the slap required him to revert to his true demonic form, I doubt any seemingly magical means he employed would have turned Charlotte, the Pontiff, or anyone else against him. Not to mention if Griffith can make it seem like an entire volley of arrows missed him, I have a hard time believing he could not make it look like he could legitimately dodge a hand purely by reflex, or grab it, or tank it completely, or whatever else.

On another note, if the entire reason Rickert's slap connected is purely because Griffith allowed it to, then I don't see what purpose the scene serves in the story. It just reaffirms Griffith's invincibility, which we've known about since the very beginning. We're past that, we don't need to have it drilled into our heads anymore, we have many examples showing us how untouchable he is. It makes far more narrative sense for the hit to be genuine. The slap was something new, it was the first time we ever saw post-Eclipse Griffith take a blow, however minute it was, and it was depicted in a suitably climatic manner, complete with a two-page spread and an additional page showing everyone's reaction to it. All of which is Miura's way of saying "This is important, pay attention!" Whether or not it's supposed to imply a specific weakness in Griffith I can't say, nor do I think it necessary. All that is necessary is the implication that Griffith is not as invincible as he'd like to think.

 

[Maco_2000]

Griffith's already a supernatural being in their eyes, and the eyes of everyone in Falconia. He's the Falcon of Light, the prophesied savior of mankind, envoy of God, etcetera, etcetera.

They believe that he's a very special human being, the prophesied savior, like you said. But they don't know that he is actually inhuman. I can't speak for the characters, but I imagine that witnessing Griffith interacting with the spirits of his soldiers would further reinforce their belief that he is fulfilling a very special, prophetic role, while witnessing him actually physically manipulate his own body in unnatural ways could give away too much.

To counter my own hypothesis, he has publicly shown his followers that he can "control," or direct, for lack of a better word, the spirits of his fallen soldiers and allow them to see their families before sending them off to the afterlife, like I mentioned above. He has also shown that he commands an army of demons, and everybody accepted that. So I can’t really say for sure that his face being intangible for a second would cause any sort of negative reaction.

It makes far more narrative sense for the hit to be genuine. The slap was something new, it was the first time we ever saw post-Eclipse Griffith take a blow, however minute it was, and it was depicted in a suitably climatic manner, complete with a two-page spread and an additional page showing everyone's reaction to it.

The only plausible reason I can think of for why he allowed that slap to land is that, for whatever reason, he let it happen. He knew it wouldn't actually hurt him, and he also didn't acknowledge it as a sign of any weakness, unlike in episode 179 on the hill of swords, where he acknowledged how the emotions of Guts' and Casca's son were influencing him. He even seemed to have gotten concerned or flustered after these feelings caused him to protect Casca from those falling rocks, and he left the scene with Zodd. Surely being struck, sincerely and unexpectedly, would have elicited a more significant reaction?

And what properties could Rickert possibly possess that Guts' dragon slayer doesn't? (The scene where the dragon slayer phases through Griffith is from the continuation, yes, so we can take that with a grain of salt, I guess.) It can't be that Rickert's slap connected because Rickert doesn't hate Griffith, because although he may not hate him like Guts does, that slap was one of anger. Besides, the emotions of the attacker don't influence whether their attack can land on an astral being/Godhand member/apostle or not.

 

[Ithier]

They believe that he's a very special human being, the prophesied savior, like you said. But they don't know that he is actually inhuman.

Raban said something to the effect of "just what the hell is the hawk?" when Griffith brought his demons to bear on Shiva. I think it's reasonable to assume that Rickert's hand harmlessly passing through his face would be just another marvel to them from a being who is clearly more than human. I don't believe there's any special physical significance to the slap as it stands. Griffith wasn't expecting it or that kind of rejection from Rickert sure, but I don't really think that this has anything to do with Rickert himself or that Griffith's weakness is being telegraphed to us. At most you could say that he wasn't expecting an attack the way he was at Shet or Elfhelm (which this really wasn't anyway), and his invulnerability isn't this passive quality.

 

[Walter]

The only plausible reason I can think of for why he allowed that slap to land is that, for whatever reason, he let it happen.

That reasoning doesn't make sense to me...

He even seemed to have gotten concerned or flustered after these feelings caused him to protect Casca from those falling rocks, and he left the scene with Zodd. Surely being struck, sincerely and unexpectedly, would have elicited a more significant reaction?

My reading is just slightly different: The boy's feelings made Griffith protect Casca. And at that moment, Griffith realized that Guts and Casca's connection with the boy was a variable he hadn't counted on. It was something that resulted in him losing control for a moment. We know that surprised him, because we were able to read his thoughts afterward. So he cut his losses and ran.

Anyway, Griffith did react to being struck. We see him staring off in the distance as Rickert leaves. And afterall, we still don't know who really asked Rakshas to personally escort Rickert out, right? It was left ambiguous, though the sequence ends with Griffith staring after him (again!).

And what properties could Rickert possibly possess that Guts' dragon slayer doesn't? (The scene where the dragon slayer phases through Griffith is from the continuation, yes, so we can take that with a grain of salt, I guess.) It can't be that Rickert's slap connected because Rickert doesn't hate Griffith, because although he may not hate him like Guts does, that slap was one of anger. Besides, the emotions of the attacker don't influence whether their attack can land on an astral being/Godhand member/apostle or not.

I think it's pretty simple, and the continuation's depiction of "phasing" has corrupted things.

Rickert's rejection was a genuine surprise to Griffith, and so was the slap. I don't think Miura crafted that moment to require a mechanical explanation for it to have happened. I see Griffith's surprise from his reaction as Rickert left the scene in the following episode. Because in a rare moment, not showing off for his cronies, not facing anyone in particular, Griffith frowned at Rickert's decision, and Miura specifically chose to show us that, and not gloss over it.

Beyond that, I do tend to relate this with Skull Knight's words back on Vritannis beach: "To challenge and touch the Falcon, one must reside outside of the tale." What's so special about Rickert? He has credentials! Consider that Rickert is a unique loose end in a way that Guts and Casca aren't. Skull Knight made a special rescue effort just for him, back in the Golden Age. Also, Rickert is not a sacrifice. But he's connected to Griffith in a way that no one else alive (who isn't branded) is. He was witness to who he was and who he became. He can see through the utopian guise like the other humans just can't.

All of those things place Rickert into a very special position, untouched by the karmic fire that envelopes Guts, and uninfluenced by the overwhelming charm that makes everyone else swoon to his whims. I think Griffith, who was so used to everything going his way, with all outcomes playing out within his hands, truly expected Rickert to accept his offer. And the judgment he got instead did leave a mark, for the first time.

Now... I don't think any of that has anything to do with the ending of Berserk (lol). I think the whole scene was more about Rickert finally making a decision on the conflict he'd harbored since the Hill of Swords. And as a tasty treat on top, it was a noteworthy moment for Griffith to be turned down, and to realize that despite all appearances, not everything is within his control.

 

[Cyrus Jong]

They believe that he's a very special human being, the prophesied savior, like you said. But they don't know that he is actually inhuman. I can't speak for the characters, but I imagine that witnessing Griffith interacting with the spirits of his soldiers would further reinforce their belief that he is fulfilling a very special, prophetic role, while witnessing him actually physically manipulate his own body in unnatural ways could give away too much.

To counter my own hypothesis, he has publicly shown his followers that he can "control," or direct, for lack of a better word, the spirits of his fallen soldiers and allow them to see their families before sending them off to the afterlife, like I mentioned above. He has also shown that he commands an army of demons, and everybody accepted that. So I can’t really say for sure that his face being intangible for a second would cause any sort of negative reaction.

It's irrelevant what they believe Griffith actually is. They believe he is a divine being and that's all that matters. Anything supernatural he does can easily be explained away as a result of his literally God-given powers or divine providence. And I think it's going to take a hell of a lot more than dodging a bitch-slap to make people question the validity of their holy and prophesized savior! As you said, they know he's been consorting with Apostles, aka literal demons, and they've been convinced that everything is fine. Avoiding Rickert's slap is small potatoes compared to that. Heck, all the way back in Vritannis, Federico was able to convince the nobles that all the supernatural acts they saw committed by Guts' party were illusions, including the two elves protesting against his declaration. If fucking Federico can talk down a ballroom of aristocrats like that, I don't think Griffith with his ungodly charisma is going to have any issues explaining away his own magical acts to a small group of his most devoted human followers, assuming they have any problems with said powers (which they absolutely wouldn't).

But let's assume for a minute that Miura always intended Griffith to have the ability to phase through physical objects, and that it wasn't just something Mori and Studio GAGA pulled out of a hat. And let's assume that when we saw Griffith phasing through the Dragon Slayer at the beginning of this continuation project, that he literally was phasing through it and not using some other power, like casting an illusion to fool Guts into thinking he was in one place when he was really in another. Now let's go back to the slap scene and assume that Griffith's only means of avoiding the slap is to phase through Rickert's hand, and he does exactly that. Charlotte, the Pontiff, Sonia, Mule, and everyone else is going to have a hell of a hard time actually noticing anything magical happening; they were all sitting under a gazebo, while Griffith and Rickert were standing on the bridge a good distance away, like maybe about 15-20 feet, with the former facing away from them. Most of the slapping action is going to be blocked from their vantage point and it's going to happen so fast that it's doubtful any of them would realized what actually happened. If they see Rickert swing his hand but Griffith doesn't physically react (and we don't hear that satisfying SMACK! sound), then they have no reason to think the hit ever physically connected. Maybe Griffith dodged it in that subtle way he always does, maybe Rickert held back and deliberately missed, or maybe Almighty God willed that Griffith not get bitch-smacked like he owed Rickert money. The outcome would be the same either way; Rickert tried to slap him but failed through what appears to be very mundane means. And if they did notice anything was awry, then maybe it was just a trick of their eye. It's not like any of them can double-check.

The only plausible reason I can think of for why he allowed that slap to land is that, for whatever reason, he let it happen. He knew it wouldn't actually hurt him, and he also didn't acknowledge it as a sign of any weakness, unlike in episode 179 on the hill of swords, where he acknowledged how the emotions of Guts' and Casca's son were influencing him. He even seemed to have gotten concerned or flustered after these feelings caused him to protect Casca from those falling rocks, and he left the scene with Zodd. Surely being struck, sincerely and unexpectedly, would have elicited a more significant reaction?

And what properties could Rickert possibly possess that Guts' dragon slayer doesn't? (The scene where the dragon slayer phases through Griffith is from the continuation, yes, so we can take that with a grain of salt, I guess.) It can't be that Rickert's slap connected because Rickert doesn't hate Griffith, because although he may not hate him like Guts does, that slap was one of anger. Besides, the emotions of the attacker don't influence whether their attack can land on an astral being/Godhand member/apostle or not.

None of this pertains to my argument on how this serves the narrative.

 

[Maco_2000]

None of this pertains to my argument on how this serves the narrative.

That the scene drives home the point that Griffith isn’t invincible? Well, sure, but I think there are other scenes that were specifically written to illustrate that point, like on the hill of swords where he thought about the effects the boy’s feelings were having over his own actions, and how he succumbs to the boy’s transformation as the full moon hangs in the sky at the end of episode 358.

Like Ithier and Walter said, the point of the slap scene was to drive home Rickert’s feelings and Rickert’s choice, not to communicate anything, implicit or specific, about Griffith’s physical strengths or weaknesses. Character development for Rickert is how this scene serves the narrative.

All that is necessary is the implication that Griffith is not as invincible as he'd like to think.

Sure, but not in a physical sense. See Walter’s response:

I think Griffith, who was so used to everything going his way, with all outcomes playing out within his hands, truly expected Rickert to accept his offer. And the judgment he got instead did leave a mark, for the first time.

And besides that, it was a noteworthy moment for Griffith to be turned down, and to realize that despite all appearances, not everything is within his control.

 

[Aazealh]

Since this thread's main concern pertains to the depiction of events in the Continuation, I've moved it to the appropriate category.

Walter addressed all the issues with this discussion, but I'll reiterate that the preoccupation with "phasing" is misguided. It's merely a poor depiction of what happens in Shet, where a huge volley of arrows missed Griffith at close range, or what happens atop Ganishka, where the beherit sword's own reality-cutting slash gets warped around Femto. This relates to the field Schierke sees around him, which she describes as a maelstrom (which is itself a redux of what she says after Shet, in volume 22). In short, it's more of a "reality distortion field", which feels consistent with his powers as shown in volumes 3 and 13.

Now, my actual point here is that besides the fact only Locus and two soldiers would have seen it up close, an onlooker's reaction would be the same than in Shet: incomprehension. "Did... did it miss? How?" I don't think this would cast doubt on Griffith in their mind. There's a reason Miura never actually showed the process: it's cooler, more mysterious and more impressive that way. Onlookers are bewildered because they can't process what happened. As far as I'm concerned, the fact the Dragon Slayer is shown just cutting "through" Griffith harmlessly in episode 366 is the result of a lack of proficiency from the assistants and nothing more.

Regarding the meaningfulness of the slap, it seems quite shortsighted to me to imply that it's limited to Rickert's character development. What makes it so remarkable is precisely the fact Griffith had been otherwise untouchable, and it's a clear proof that he isn't invulnerable. Walter put it eloquently: despite all appearances, not everything is within his control. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that Griffith getting spectacularly slapped in the face by a guy who just showed up and then left would been shown to have a lasting impact on Charlotte, Sonia, Mule and so on, more so than a small display of his powers.

One last thing:

He even seemed to have gotten concerned or flustered after these feelings caused him to protect Casca from those falling rocks, and he left the scene with Zodd. Surely being struck, sincerely and unexpectedly, would have elicited a more significant reaction?

Griffith was clearly shocked by the slap, but the implications of the boy being able to take control of the body are so much more serious for him that they don't belong in the same conversation at all.

 

[Gambler]

In the end it all comes down to the Moonlight Boy. I can't see Guts killing his son to kill Griffith in the process. Would the boy sacriffice himself? Is he able to separate himself from Griffith?

Of course there will be a Guts x Griffith rematch, but I doubt the ending will be as simple as that. I do expect at least one plot twist before the series ending