Author Topic: Musashi Kill Count  (Read 9991 times)

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Offline Griffith

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Musashi Kill Count
« on: March 12, 2009, 07:07:26 AM »
Anyone familiar with my old sig will remember I had a list of everyone Musashi had cut down. Since I no longer have it up, I thought I'd make a thread about it, and examine it a little more closely, particularly Musashi's recent, so-called, 70 man battle. Here's the list:

Arima Kihei, llll llll llll, Tsujikaze Tenma, llll llll llll llll, Aoki, llll llll llll lll, Kaji, Hasuzawa, Nimura, Chihara, Takashina, Agon, l, Inshun, lll, Murata Yozo, Debuci Magobe, Kimura Sukekuro, Shoda Kizaemon, llll llll, Takakura Sobe, llll, Shishido Baiken/Tsujikaze Kohei, Yoshioka Seijuro, Gion Toji, Yoshioka Denshichiro, Oe, l, Ueda Ryohei, llll ll, Horikawa Yoshibee, llll lll, Fujiie, lll, Azuma Koshiro, llll llll, Juzo, llll llll llll llll l, Mihara, Takashima, Nanpo Yoichibe, llll llll llll, Tagaya Hikozo, llll, Kobashi Kurando

Now, the most, though certainly not the only, challenging and disputable part of this was the duel with the Yoshioka school at Ichijoji. If it were just a number count, I could add the proverbial 70 and be done with it, but, as you can see, I'm putting them in order, meaning I'd actually have to count the Yoshioka in the order they were slain to see where to add the nameless hash marks. Well, I did exactly that, trying my best to avoid possible doubles or repeats, and the results were more interesting than I expected. My final count above is way beyond 70, up to 80 actually. Well, I counted pretty closely, of course there's still a margin of error for debate, but then there's this; before the fight, the two page spread of all the Yoshioka awaiting Musashi:


As you can see, I counted every single one, and while there's a couple of questionable shapes, it's about 80 again, up to 82 as a matter of fact. I'm splitting the difference and calling it 81 (maybe Inoue was honoring Kobe Bryant =).

In any case, why the consistent inconsistency with the number 70, the official figure which has been repeated ad nauseam? I tried coming up with explanations, like maybe there were some extra stragglers or ronin around, hired swords as they tried with Kojiro, or just men out to observe and make a name for themselves. That one's not too likely, or at least there's nothing else that suggests it. Maybe the 70 didn't count the 10 swords, but of course, there weren't even that many left anyway, and even if there were, it wouldn't account for anything over 80. Maybe 70 was a very loose estimation, like they didn't know exactly how many students were in reserve on the periphery... but, if it were actually closer to 80 or over, wouldn't they still say 80? Maybe it's a combination, maybe Ueda didn't know the exact number, or they just casually said 70, but there were actually 74-76 students with the remaining members of the 10 swords making up the difference. Finally, most likely, maybe Inoue just got carried away. Anyway, I always thought it would be cool if Inoue basically showed Musashi individually slaying all 70; turns out they both went above and beyond the call of duty.

81

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 03:04:15 PM »
Anyway, I always thought it would be cool if Inoue basically showed Musashi individually slaying all 70; turns out they both went above and beyond the call of duty.

81


Yeah it would be nice. But I that two page spread kinda gives it a better image of how much ground to cover and since it's a big shot, it shows the entire group, you know kinda to emphasize what Musashi was going against. I would also think it might be time consumingto show all of the killlings individually. But nonetheless, still pretty good list you have there. Thank you for taking the time and effort.

Online Walter

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 03:52:37 PM »
I think the official number of 70 is likely what Inoue intended, and we can safely call "canon." But as you say, he got probably just got carried away. As you can no doubt already tell, counting them all was surely a laborious task, and not one he expected anyone to take the time to do.

I remember counting the number of kills during Guts' 100-man-slayer scene, and physically counted about 30 before the narrative shifts focus over to the Hawks, and then back to Guts, when he's already killed everyone.

"I-It's Bazuso, known as the 30-man-slayer!"
"Also known as the BEAR SLAUGHTERER."
  :ganishka:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 04:52:25 PM »
It's an interesting thought, but I don't think Inoue would go through the trouble to draw all those people and not make sure they were the correct number. It's possible that Inoue wasn't adding the 10 with the other 70. From reading the manga I always took it as that is how they counted them selves anyways.

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 08:36:16 AM »
Yeah it would be nice. But I that two page spread kinda gives it a better image of how much ground to cover and since it's a big shot, it shows the entire group, you know kinda to emphasize what Musashi was going against. I would also think it might be time consumingto show all of the killlings individually. But nonetheless, still pretty good list you have there. Thank you for taking the time and effort.

Thank you as well. I agree with what you're saying that it emphasizes the scope of what Musashi is up against and what he accomplished, and also makes that clear without showing every death individually... which makes it all the more interesting that Inoue chose to do that and more anyway.

I think the official number of 70 is likely what Inoue intended, and we can safely call "canon." But as you say, he got probably just got carried away. As you can no doubt already tell, counting them all was surely a laborious task, and not one he expected anyone to take the time to do.

Don't you find it interesting that he didn't count them either then considering he had to draw each one, a far more laborious task? Unless it was work delegated to an assistant, our stock excuse for Miura. =)

I remember counting the number of kills during Guts' 100-man-slayer scene, and physically counted about 30 before the narrative shifts focus over to the Hawks, and then back to Guts, when he's already killed everyone.

"I-It's Bazuso, known as the 30-man-slayer!"
"Also known as the BEAR SLAUGHTERER."
 :ganishka:

When you consider all the cuts to other action and characters, maybe Musashi actually cut down 100 men for himself! That's what made this particular massacre so interesting to me, usually in these scenarios, even lesser battles in Vagabond itself, you don't usually see the throngs being cut down, a lot of it happens "off-screen." This was the case even in the novel. I think it was a great way for adding impact to the whole thing, it's now one of the most important events in the series, and certainly justified with all the consequences and musings on it since.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think Inoue would go through the trouble to draw all those people and not make sure they were the correct number. It's possible that Inoue wasn't adding the 10 with the other 70. From reading the manga I always took it as that is how they counted them selves anyways.

Yeah, it's strange, and even stranger that it's actually consistent (the men shown at the start, versus men shown killed), so I don't know what to think other than 70 is just the "official number." It's like Musashi one of those serial killers with a bunch of unconfirmed bodies out there. =)


BTW, unofficial series total "cut down" count: 172*.

Despite splitting the difference on my 80-82 count above, I decided to go with the max possible here.

Offline Bunnet

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 11:19:05 PM »
I go with what you brought of several people he killed could have officially die from wounds or complicating so those would not be counted as kill to me but how did you came up with the number 171 if I may ask?

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 11:26:47 PM »
how did you came up with the number 171 if I may ask?

From reading the manga from volume 1 and counting the people it shows  being killed.

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 08:37:21 AM »
I go with what you brought of several people he killed could have officially die from wounds or complicating so those would not be counted as kill to me

Yes, it's not actually kills, I just thought it made for a more compelling thread title, it's actually a list of men Musashi has crossed swords with and gotten the better of. There's people he's killed out right, cut down, overpowered, or who simply conceded. To it's basically like a fighters win record, but this gives me an idea, like I should go through and count what kind of win each was, like by decision or TKO. =)

but how did you came up with the number 171 if I may ask?

Like branded said, I just went through the volumes paying special attention to all of Musashi's encounters and battles. There's still a few sequences open to the interpretation of the standards one applies though. I tried to be conservative, but sometimes there'd be conflicting accounts, like where it would show him surrounded by a certain number of enemies, but then you see him fight a different number of them, and then there's yet another number of bodies around him afterward. Then it becomes complicated.

Offline Bunnet

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 02:13:32 AM »
Yes, it's not actually kills, I just thought it made for a more compelling thread title, it's actually a list of men Musashi has crossed swords with and gotten the better of. There's people he's killed out right, cut down, overpowered, or who simply conceded. To it's basically like a fighters win record, but this gives me an idea, like I should go through and count what kind of win each was, like by decision or TKO. =)

Like branded said, I just went through the volumes paying special attention to all of Musashi's encounters and battles. There's still a few sequences open to the interpretation of the standards one applies though. I tried to be conservative, but sometimes there'd be conflicting accounts, like where it would show him surrounded by a certain number of enemies, but then you see him fight a different number of them, and then there's yet another number of bodies around him afterward. Then it becomes complicated.
I must say I'm totally impress with that! I don't think I could possibly count them and come up with actual number

Offline Griffith

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 07:47:27 PM »
I must say I'm totally impress with that! I don't think I could possibly count them and come up with actual number

Well, like I said, I think it's hard to come up with an actual number, but there are guidelines one can follow to get a consistent count, and that's all I tried to do. I'd be curious to see someone else's results too and how they came to those conclusions, particularly for Musashi's early days fighting bandits and then guards.

Online Walter

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 03:51:45 PM »
I'd be curious to see someone else's results too and how they came to those conclusions, particularly for Musashi's early days fighting bandits and then guards.
Oh my ... a full on Guts-esque Musashi Kill Roster? Brings back some painful memories  :guts:

I can't say that I'm not interested in tackling this beast though. Maybe I'll give it a shot, but I'd rather we divy it up among the members here to keep the work more manageable; such as each of us gets 5 vols. And we should also set some guidelines on what counts as kills. Since there will be a LOT of maybes, I'm guessing. A slice with the DS means certain death, but that's often not so with the katana.

PS: Dibs on vol 14-19! :ganishka:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 03:56:37 PM »
Oh my ... a full on Guts-esque Musashi Kill Roster? Brings back some painful memories  :guts:

I can't say that I'm not interested in tackling this beast though. Maybe I'll give it a shot, but I'd rather we divy it up among the members here to keep the work more manageable; such as each of us gets 5 vols. And we should also set some guidelines on what counts as kills. Since there will be a LOT of maybes, I'm guessing. A slice with the DS means certain death, but that's often  not so with the katana.

PS: Dibs on vol 14-19! :ganishka:


I"m up for it.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 04:22:41 PM »
Oh my ... a full on Guts-esque Musashi Kill Roster? Brings back some painful memories  :guts:

I can't say that I'm not interested in tackling this beast though. Maybe I'll give it a shot, but I'd rather we divy it up among the members here to keep the work more manageable; such as each of us gets 5 vols. And we should also set some guidelines on what counts as kills. Since there will be a LOT of maybes, I'm guessing. A slice with the DS means certain death, but that's often not so with the katana.

Well, now you're getting into some pretty dangerous territory here, this can of worms could eat us, like, I'm thinking we need an entirely new statistical analysis system that rates all encounters, most basically things like Musashi's cut down attempts (CDAs) versus cut downs made or converted (CDCs). That's still to simplistic, we have to rate every encounter individually and take stock of exactly everything that happened, who attacked first, who drew first blood, offensive and defensive moves, how many strikes total, footwork, adopting a kendo points system, who was ahead on points, etc. Now there's a project worthy of a team.

A propose we try it with... uh, the first fight we see. =)

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 04:28:18 PM »
things like Musashi's cut down attempts (CDAs) versus cut downs made or converted (CDCs).
What about the CQCs?  :badbone:

Quote
That's still to simplistic, we have to rate every encounter individually and take stock of exactly everything that happened, who attacked first, who drew first blood, offensive and defensive moves, how many strikes total, footwork, adopting a kendo points system, who was ahead on points, etc. Now there's a project worthy of a team.
I don't see why we'd need to track down that specific information, not to say we SHOULDN'T. I just don't think it's necessary. How do we even quantify something like "footwork?"

Quote
A propose we try it with... uh, the first fight we see. =)
You mean, the next one we come across or  the first fight in vol 1?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 08:20:53 AM »
What about the CQCs?  :badbone:

Musashi, press the CQC button, then spin around the left joystick while holding down R1 and L2!

I don't see why we'd need to track down that specific information, not to say we SHOULDN'T. I just don't think it's necessary. How do we even quantify something like "footwork?"

Research. =)

And yeah, there's really no need to do anything, actually, my main point is more that Musashi has as many cut downs without kills than actual slaughters, well, at least before the 70 80 man fight.

You mean, the next one we come across or  the first fight in vol 1?

I mean the first in volume 1, or we could go with his chronological first, Arima Kihei. Though actually, I think at least one of his encounters with his father we see, and definitely the one's with Matahatchi, pre-date that. Off the top of my head, I remember Musashi got the first strike and first blood on Kihei with the sign, got a take down, a disarmament and steal to boot, before the money shot. =)

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Re: Musashi Kill Count
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2009, 09:09:15 AM »
Added Musashi's newly confirmed childhood kills and wins while/since escaping custody:

Arima Kihei, llll llll llll llll llll, Tsujikaze Tenma, llll llll llll llll, Aoki, llll llll llll lll, Kaji, Hasuzawa, Nimura, Chihara, Takashina, Agon, l, Inshun, lll, Murata Yozō, Debuci Magobe, Kimura Sukekurō, Shōda Kizaemon, llll llll, Takakura Sōbe, llll, Shishido Baiken/Tsujikaze Kōhei, Yoshioka Seijūrō, Gion Tōji, Yoshioka Denshichirō, Oe, l, Ueda Ryōhei, llll ll, Horikawa Yoshibee, llll lll, Fujiie, lll, Azuma Koshiro, llll llll, Juzo, llll llll llll llll l, Mihara, Takashima, Nanpō Yoichibe, llll llll llll, Tagaya Hikozo, llll, Kobashi Kurando, llll lll

Current unofficial "cut down" count: 190 :mushieyes: