Author Topic: LAKERS!  (Read 19056 times)

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Offline TheBranded1

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2010, 02:41:35 AM »
Now the series is tied, so with both wins at home from both teams it seems this is turning interesting.

Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2010, 04:11:30 AM »
 :isidro:

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2010, 03:52:11 PM »
Yeah!! very exciting game. I was listening to the game on the radio and the guys doing the play to play action are the local guys that do the sports radio station here. They were sure so biased and cheered when the suns were climbing little by little to close the lead on the Lakers. All in all very entertaining game.


UPDATE: L.A. Vs Boston in the Finals!! I just didn't see it other way. I like Phoenix, but they weren't ready yet. Now it's payback time for Kobe and the rest for that final they lost in '08. I'm optimistic this will go to the final 7th game. :ubik:
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 03:45:02 AM by Th3Branded0ne »

Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2010, 04:27:14 AM »
Glad to get that one, but still need to get game 2. Don't know how much we learned from that one either, Boston just looked bad, doubt they'll play like that again. Fearful the Lakers will let down and Boston will come out furious.

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2010, 04:40:22 AM »
Glad to get that one, but still need to get game 2. Don't know how much we learned from that one either, Boston just looked bad, doubt they'll play like that again. Fearful the Lakers will let down and Boston will come out furious.

It was pretty much the Lakers' night and with Boston with foul trouble in the 3rd quarter with Allen,Wallace, and Perkins didn't help them much. I liked how Gasol played tonight. I'm pretty sure Rivers will show them a tape to try to be more consistent on defense.

Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2010, 03:15:09 AM »
Derek Fisher.

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2010, 02:56:29 AM »
Even to have a 17 point gap at some point in the game. Good game, for the Lakers that is.



L.A. NBA 2010 Champions!! Good game. back to back to back 3's at the end was nice. Kobe got his payback.

Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2010, 04:05:05 AM »


!!!!!

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2010, 03:03:21 PM »

Feeling the heat yet?  :carcus:

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2010, 03:47:20 PM »
Feeling the heat yet?  :carcus:


It looks good on paper, but I"m also predicting some ego wars on the inside.

Offline Woland

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2010, 04:04:16 PM »
I'm still amazed by all the spite and vitriol coming out of Cleveland.  I mean yeah, making a spectacle out of his departure was kind of a douchebag move, but they're acting like Lebron James personally came by everyone's home and pissed in their corn flakes.

*Place deeply meaningful thoughts here*
Wait, on second thought, don't, It might ruin my reputation.

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2010, 06:14:18 PM »
It looks good on paper, but I"m also predicting some ego wars on the inside.

I'd like to think they'll try to make it work for a while. They seem to be really interested in getting a ring together, besides, those same egos you mentioned will make them want to not come across as stupid having decided to play together, whether that will lead to them trying harder or just trying to hide eventual problems, remains to be seen.

Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2010, 10:57:52 PM »
Oh, should I be worried about the...


I probably should be, but bring 'em on! No better way to three-peat than against this team, even the Celtics (old news, old knees). Only in this situation could the Lakers actually be the Rebels against the Evil Empire; we're the NBA's last line of defense against this new world order!


BTW, couldn't have happened to a worse sports city. Everything about it is perfectly wrong, from the way it went down, to the team name, to the way none of the nicknames for the big three work (Miami Thrice... bleh), to the way they're already throwing championship-like celebrations. This is the perfect NBA team, city, and situation for real NBA fans to root against, and for phony frontrunner fans to jump on the bandwagon with (and man are there going to be a LOT of them riding the Heat! =). Speaking of which, check out these die hard Heat fans at a typical game the last two years:


Lot of empty seats, right? I heard the Heat had to make all their money on the road when actual basketball fans came out to see D Wade. I mean, you can't blame Heat fans though, they were only a playoff team with one of the best players in the league putting on a show every night! Hopefully, having three franchise guys in their prime will be enough to consistently put butts in the seats. :ganishka:


The signing of Haslem and Big Z turns up the heat up on the Lakers though. To go along with the ridiculous threesome of LeBron, Wade, and Bosh, they now have the frontline size to match and bother the Lakers. LeBron/Haslem/Bosh/Z to Artest/Odom/Gasol/Bynum. That was our big advantage. Not to mention they have Mike Miller, possibly coming off the bench, who last year shot 50% from 3. Pretty, pretty, pretty... pretty good.

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2010, 02:56:27 PM »
http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/miami_cheat.jpg

What would you say made them cheaters?

This is the perfect NBA team, city, and situation for real NBA fans to root against, and for phony frontrunner fans to jump on the bandwagon with

And it hasn't been like this with the Lakers?

Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2010, 07:19:19 PM »
What would you say made them cheaters?

It's funny, I've been getting that a lot. First and foremost, it's just a derisive nickname, like the LA Fakers (are they really "faking"?). So, I'm being facetious, but they're are some reasons behind it, some factual, some metaphorical. Like rumors of player collusion confirmed by Bosh, the recent signing of Haslem at way below market value with the likely arrangement of more money later, which is salary cap-tampering. Plus, if you did this in a video game, it'd be cheating, so why not in real life? They're basically doing what Mr. Burns did to win his softball bet at the power plant. They're cheating the system and taking the easy way out, literally and figuratively. Look at LeBron for instance, he couldn't win with a team built around him, so he had to join a super team with D Wade (remember how "Kobe couldn't win without Shaq", LeBron just signed up for some of that). See that flaming basketball in the logo? It now represents the integrity and competitive balance of the NBA... UP IN FLAMES! So, even if this is unfair, it's just stickin' it to 'em all the more. It's better to devalue their probable future accomplishments now, and it works whether they win or lose. Trust me, I thought this through. =)

And it hasn't been like this with the Lakers?

How dare you! Haha, yeah, I'm going to enjoy that knock on another city, the Heat are now the Yankees of basketball, and really, they're even worse. LA is a real basketball town, it's a Lakers town, it has a rich history, it's the most storied Franchise in the NBA. Miami isn't, they had a top 4 player in the league killing himself and throwing up crazy numbers to make the playoffs, and he was doing it in front of a half empty arena! LA may have the phonies in the front rows, there to be seen, but the rest of the arena is filled with real fans, thick or thin. Also, I'm not just attacking Miami people, but all the national frontrunners, mercenary fans, and hangers on that are going to gravitate towards the Heat now, to bask in their glory. These are the same people that were pretending to be Cavs fans all these years, hitching their wagon to LeBron, and waiting to celebrate all the titles he won (oops). That kind of fan has no team, the losses don't affect them, and their victory is hollow (ironically, LeBron is one of these himself, rooting for the Yankees, Cowboys, and Bulls despite being from Cleveland, because they were all dynasties in the 90's when he was growing up... see, he abandoned his home long ago, not to mention he's like the worst frontrunner ever, even doing it professionally now =). Hopefully, the Heat will even take some of our fake fans with them.

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2010, 08:33:21 PM »
Like rumors of player collusion confirmed by Bosh, the recent signing of Haslem at way below market value with the likely arrangement of more money later, which is salary cap-tampering.

I think I read an article where Stern said that the players were allowed to talk to each other, he also seems to have said that they had no reason to launch an investigation. If the commissioner doesn't say anything, what else is there to do?

Plus, if you did this in a video game, it'd be cheating, so why not in real life?

And to think that it's usually in video games where people get to do things they can't do in real life.

They're basically doing what Mr. Burns did to win his softball bet at the power plant. They're cheating the system and taking the easy way out, literally and figuratively.

Again, if the powers that are supposed to enforce the rules are not doing anything about it, is it really cheating?

Look at LeBron for instance, he couldn't win with a team built around him, so he had to join a super team with D Wade (remember how "Kobe couldn't win without Shaq", LeBron just signed up for some of that).

You said it yourself, even Kobe wasn't able to win until they gave him a fairly good team (or Gasol, whichever you prefer), or are you saying that you think he could have won with the Cavs had he been in LeBron's place? Maybe LeBron would have done better if he had somebody like Kupchak to steal him his own Gasol.

See that flaming basketball in the logo? It now represents the integrity and competitive balance of the NBA... UP IN FLAMES!

Competitive balance? Has there been such a thing in the recent times? If the league has been so balanced how come there have been only 7 different champions in the last 26 years? And lets not forget the repeats and threepeats.

So, even if this is unfair, it's just stickin' it to 'em all the more. It's better to devalue their probable future accomplishments now, and it works whether they win or lose. Trust me, I thought this through. =)

So if they win their win will be worth less than somebody else's just because they are a super team like you called it? Or is it because they would have cheated?

How dare you! Haha, yeah, I'm going to enjoy that knock on another city, the Heat are now the Yankees of basketball, and really, they're even worse. LA is a real basketball town, it's a Lakers town, it has a rich history, it's the most storied Franchise in the NBA.

I think the Lakers are the Yankees of basketball. Your description of the Lakers matches the Yankees so much you could just change the names and people wouldn't be able to disagree, except maybe for the fact that in New York there are more Mets fans than there are Clippers fans in LA.

It's funny you brought up the Yankees, the other team I really don't like.

Miami isn't, they had a top 4 player in the league killing himself and throwing up crazy numbers to make the playoffs, and he was doing it in front of a half empty arena!

So the only difference between the last couple of years Heat and the post-Shaq pre Gasol Lakers is that the Lakers had a house full of real fans.

LA may have the phonies in the front rows, there to be seen, but the rest of the arena is filled with real fans, thick or thin. Also, I'm not just attacking Miami people, but all the national frontrunners, mercenary fans, and hangers on that are going to gravitate towards the Heat now, to bask in their glory. These are the same people that were pretending to be Cavs fans all these years, hitching their wagon to LeBron, and waiting to celebrate all the titles he won (oops). That kind of fan has no team, the losses don't affect them, and their victory is hollow (ironically, LeBron is one of these himself, rooting for the Yankees, Cowboys, and Bulls despite being from Cleveland, because they were all dynasties in the 90's when he was growing up... see, he abandoned his home long ago, not to mention he's like the worst frontrunner ever, even doing it professionally now =). Hopefully, the Heat will even take some of our fake fans with them.

I think we agree that there will be fake fans supporting the team that is doing well, or has the potential to do so, and we also agree that the Lakers had their fair share of those too, so the Heat is not the only team perfect for this.



Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2010, 09:32:39 PM »
You quoted everything in my post except the first sentence that set the tone!

It's funny, I've been getting that a lot. First and foremost, it's just a derisive nickname, like the LA Fakers (are they really "faking"?). So, I'm being facetious, but they're are some reasons behind it, some factual, some metaphorical.

If you want to do this for real despite my disclaimer, fine, let's quotepost each other to death. I love talking hoops, anyway. =)

I think I read an article where Stern said that the players were allowed to talk to each other, he also seems to have said that they had no reason to launch an investigation. If the commissioner doesn't say anything, what else is there to do?

The teams didn't force an investigation by lodging the necessary complaints, which wouldn't behoove them since they wanted to be compensated by the Heat with sign and trade deals, so it's very political, and Stern has no reason to throw mud on this publicity bonanza, so he's dropping the matter since it's not really in the leagues best interest to pursue it. I don't actually think it's a big deal, but you were asking for a reason to call them cheaters, even jokingly, and this certainly qualifies. Just the fact that the commish had to address it makes it fair game. :zodd:

And to think that it's usually in video games where people get to do things they can't do in real life.

Again, if the powers that are supposed to enforce the rules are not doing anything about it, is it really cheating?

See above. And really, it's vague a reference to the relative competitive advantage have with arguably the two best players in the league on the same team. I'm not saying they're literally on steroids, just figuratively.

You said it yourself, even Kobe wasn't able to win until they gave him a fairly good team (or Gasol, whichever you prefer), or are you saying that you think he could have won with the Cavs had he been in LeBron's place? Maybe LeBron would have done better if he had somebody like Kupchak to steal him his own Gasol.

Not the same thing. First, LeBron deserves part of the blame for not getting help, they couldn't get him good free agents because he was constantly holding his possible departure over the franchise. Again and again good players opted not to go to Cleveland in the off season because LeBron wouldn't give them any guarantee he was going to be there going forward. Second, I find it hilarious that people are equating forming an all-star super team (literally, their big three are going to be the Eastern starters in the all-star game at their position) with traditional roster upgrades or even lopsided trades. This is unprecedented for a reason, you can't compare it to Kobe getting to play with a guy that had zero playoff wins before they teamed up (Gasol is great, God bless him, but he's not a superstar). This would be more like if Kobe had demanded he be traded to Wade's or LeBron's team to win by any means (for the record, he wanted to go to Chicago, where he would have had to take the challenge of beating those guys, not joining them). As a matter of fact, this situation is the opposite of the knock on Kobe, he wanted to be the man without Shaq, he took a lot of criticism for it, but now he's proven he could lead a team to the championship, and it cemented his legacy (LeBron could have gone to Chicago and done the same thing, but he chose not to). Why should LeBron be held to a different standard?

What's funny though is these guys can't win, they get criticized either way, they're either too selfish, or too unselfish. I guess Kobe is now considered properly selfish.

Competitive balance? Has there been such a thing in the recent times? If the league has been so balanced how come there have been only 7 different champions in the last 26 years? And lets not forget the repeats and threepeats.

I'm aware, again, not totally serious with that wild statement. =)

So if they win their win will be worth less than somebody else's just because they are a super team like you called it? Or is it because they would have cheated?

Not as a team, history is written by the winners, and if they win a bunch of championships, they'll be looked at as this great unselfish enterprise that sacrificed to win and maybe even changed the way the NBA works. I'd respect that, I'm not one of these delusional fans that hates greatness or says a team sucks because they win all the time or just because they beat mine. But, individually they may not be held in as high esteem, just as people used to devalue Kobe's rings with Shaq. It's all relative, like if they only win a couple of championships together, people will consider them underachievers, as crazy as that sounds. And I don't even necessarily think this will be Dwayne Wade's team with LeBron subverting his own legacy, we'll have to wait and see how it develops. If LeBron clearly emerges as the alpha dog among alpha dogs on this squad, averages a triple double or something, and ends up winning a ton of Finals MVPs on this team, we're certainly not going to hold this against him. But, it does open him up to that criticism that Kobe got about playing with Shaq, as silly as that is, particularly if it's still Wade's team. If they win big and often, it'll probably all go away, if not...

I think the Lakers are the Yankees of basketball. Your description of the Lakers matches the Yankees so much you could just change the names and people wouldn't be able to disagree, except maybe for the fact that in New York there are more Mets fans than there are Clippers fans in LA.

Oh, they certainly are the Yankees of basketball from a success standpoint, even better in recent history actually (late 70's on), but at the moment Miami is more true of the model that makes the Yankees so continually reviled. They just went out and bought the top three free agents on the market, 2 of the top 4 players in the league, including the MVP; even the Lakers have never done that! It's absolutely Yankees-esque.

It's funny you brought up the Yankees, the other team I really don't like.

Haha, there's an original sentiment! What, you don't like LeBron's favorite team? :carcus:

Anyway, now that I know who you dislike, which team do you root for, friend?

So the only difference between the last couple of years Heat and the post-Shaq pre Gasol Lakers is that the Lakers had a house full of real fans.

I think we agree that there will be fake fans supporting the team that is doing well, or has the potential to do so, and we also agree that the Lakers had their fair share of those too, so the Heat is not the only team perfect for this.

Again, not the same thing. Whether the fans are real or not, they were there. Miami, admittedly if you believe Dan Le Batard, doesn't really have that investment in the team as part of their idenity (that's a nice way of saying they don't give a shit =), but they love a winner. It's not like they have a rich basketball history, they've only been around since '88, an afterthought in the city, which all just adds to the unnatural, easily hated nature of this, it all feels so fake and plastic (did you see that celebration, with the smoke, rising platforms, and wrsetling introductions? Again, not even the Lakers). Anyway, the fact that D Wade was playing in front of an empty house at times the last couple of season can't be mentioned enough, it's astounding, and that was only a couple years removed from a championship! If LA fans are fair weather, Miami fans need that and the promise of a blow job to show up. :ganishka:

And hey, more power to them, they're going to get that BJ and more. For the record, I can't wait to see this team either, I heard the sell from Riley was LeBron as Magic, Wade as Kobe, and Bosh as Garnett. I've even settled on my favorite revision of their logo, which will hopefully come in handy after the 2011 finals. :guts:

*

*Unless they win. Fuuuuck.

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2010, 07:49:56 PM »
You quoted everything in my post except the first sentence that set the tone!

I thought you meant you were being facetious about the Miami Cheat nickname but that the reasons behind it were given in a more serious tone. My mistake.

Not the same thing. First, LeBron deserves part of the blame for not getting help, they couldn't get him good free agents because he was constantly holding his possible departure over the franchise. Again and again good players opted not to go to Cleveland in the off season because LeBron wouldn't give them any guarantee he was going to be there going forward.

Why is it not the same thing? Kobe wasn't winning with a team built around him and he got to the point of asking out. Surely getting Kobe free agents shouldn't have been that much easier in that situation. He only calmed down when he got what he thought was missing for him to be able to win in LA. LeBron is partly to blame for not getting help for sure but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Cavs' front office failed at giving LeBron what he needed to feel confident he could win with them and that that may be the reason why he felt he needed to leave. Perhaps things might not have turned out so well for Kobe and the Lakers had they not gotten Gasol at the right time like they did.

Second, I find it hilarious that people are equating forming an all-star super team (literally, their big three are going to be the Eastern starters in the all-star game at their position) with traditional roster upgrades or even lopsided trades.

Just nitpicking here but can you really call the Heat an all-star super team? They do certainly have three superstars but what about the rest of the team? I don't think they'll be anywhere near that level.

This is unprecedented for a reason, you can't compare it to Kobe getting to play with a guy that had zero playoff wins before they teamed up (Gasol is great, God bless him, but he's not a superstar).

I wasn't trying to say that LeBron joining the Heat is the same as the Lakers getting Gasol. What I was trying to say is that the Lakers got Gasol and with him they got the last piece they needed to become serious contenders, and that if LeBron had gotten his missing last piece in time, perhaps he wouldn't have jumped ship. The Cavs had a team good enough to have the best record in the league so they surely couldn't be that far from becoming real contenders. I was also trying to say what I've said before that if the Lakers hadn't traded for Gasol, Kobe may very well have been the one to jump ship.

Anyway, now that I know who you dislike, which team do you root for, friend?

The team that plays the Lakers.  :carcus: Seriously though, I can't call myself fan of a particular team, I don't know why but in all the years I've followed the league no team has had that kind of impact on me. I like basketball, both watching it and playing it (though I literally haven't played in years because I haven't had somebody to play it with) and following the NBA but no favorite team.


Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2010, 04:56:39 PM »
Why is it not the same thing? Kobe wasn't winning with a team built around him and he got to the point of asking out. Surely getting Kobe free agents shouldn't have been that much easier in that situation. He only calmed down when he got what he thought was missing for him to be able to win in LA. LeBron is partly to blame for not getting help for sure but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Cavs' front office failed at giving LeBron what he needed to feel confident he could win with them and that that may be the reason why he felt he needed to leave. Perhaps things might not have turned out so well for Kobe and the Lakers had they not gotten Gasol at the right time like they did.

It's not the same thing because the Lakers are still built around Kobe Bryant. Those 06-07 teams weren't just built around Kobe, they were Kobe or bust. They had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown starting on them, and those guy were practically out of the league after that. If not for him, those teams wouldn't have even won 20 games, and he dragged them to the playoffs and within a rebound of upsetting the second seeded Suns. Even if Kobe had left that squad, it would have been for another team built around him, he wasn't trying to join Dwayne Wade's team. What's happened with LeBron has really never happened before (even an MVP leaving his team in free agency like this is unprecedented), and I'm already tired of people revising all of NBA history in order to rationalize things for LeBron (not only erroneously comparing it to Kobe's situation, but even MJ, Bird, and Magic). I say to them, either don't mind that he's taking a different, arguably easier, path, or just stop rationalizing that it's the same as all the other great players that have led teams to championships, a group LeBron has yet to and may never join now. At least make him earn it before we reshape his legacy, same as Kobe.

BTW, here's what MJ himself had to say about it:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team. But...things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

Just nitpicking here but can you really call the Heat an all-star super team? They do certainly have three superstars but what about the rest of the team? I don't think they'll be anywhere near that level.

Sure, if they don't win a championship in the next 5 years we can call them an all-star super team of chokers. :troll:

Seriously though, in addition to 3 out of the 5 Eastern conference all-star starters on their team, they've already signed better role players than anyone thought they'd get, serviceable guys that could be starters on other teams. This is a super team already, and they're only going to get better players in the years to come.

I wasn't trying to say that LeBron joining the Heat is the same as the Lakers getting Gasol. What I was trying to say is that the Lakers got Gasol and with him they got the last piece they needed to become serious contenders, and that if LeBron had gotten his missing last piece in time, perhaps he wouldn't have jumped ship. The Cavs had a team good enough to have the best record in the league so they surely couldn't be that far from becoming real contenders. I was also trying to say what I've said before that if the Lakers hadn't traded for Gasol, Kobe may very well have been the one to jump ship.

They COULD have become real contenders? They won over 60 games, had the best record, top seed, and the MVP the last two years! They weren't just real contenders, they were the favorites to win it all! It came down to them not performing in the playoffs, that's all. Failing to win the games they needed to win, again and again. On paper, they were heavily favored to win both series they last the last two years. When they traded for Jamison, that was supposed to be the missing piece that put them over the top (I thought so as well). But, at some point, you have to play the games and have the heart to win against teams that aren't just going to roll over for you, and as a matter of fact, are more inspired against you because you're the best, so you'd better play like it. It's not like the Lakers just steamrolled the league in the playoffs the last two years (kind of like the Cavs did in the '09 playoffs, winning each game by 10 and sweeping every series until they were actually, ya know, challenged), the Lakers had to compete and earn those victories in hard fought playoff series and games that could have gone either way (I don't think we'd be making excuses for them had they lost =). LeBron and the Cavs were in position to compete the same way, but simply failed to live up to their potential. I still don't know how the Cavs lost really, other than they just wilted, it was honestly like watching a totally different team. I was deathly afraid they were going to beat the Lakers in the finals the past two years they looked so invincible, yet they just kept coming up small when it mattered most. Both teams were in position to win the title, the Cavs actually in better position than the Lakers with the top seed and homecourt, but while Kobe and the Lakers had to find a way to win, LeBron and the Cavs meanwhile kept finding ways to lose. At some point you just have to blame the players for not performing, LeBron included.

The team that plays the Lakers.  :carcus: Seriously though, I can't call myself fan of a particular team, I don't know why but in all the years I've followed the league no team has had that kind of impact on me. I like basketball, both watching it and playing it (though I literally haven't played in years because I haven't had somebody to play it with) and following the NBA but no favorite team.

Well, I'm sure I can guess which team you're gravitating towards next year. :guts:

Seriously, why hate the Lakers though? You don't have to like them, but if they haven't beaten your team, if it's not personal, aren't you just hating greatness? I'm not just being a homer here, I feel the same about people hating the Spurs or the Patriots before they fell off, why hate teams just for being great? That's what they're supposed to be doing. I don't know, I've always hated teams that are undeserving, that constantly underachieve, or are seemingly forever mired in suckage from top to bottom, that torture their fans, that don't even try, teams that are a disgrace, basically.

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2010, 07:03:04 PM »

It's not the same thing because the Lakers are still built around Kobe Bryant. Those 06-07 teams weren't just built around Kobe, they were Kobe or bust. They had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown starting on them, and those guy were practically out of the league after that. If not for him, those teams wouldn't have even won 20 games, and he dragged them to the playoffs and within a rebound of upsetting the second seeded Suns. Even if Kobe had left that squad, it would have been for another team built around him, he wasn't trying to join Dwayne Wade's team. What's happened with LeBron has really never happened before (even an MVP leaving his team in free agency like this is unprecedented), and I'm already tired of people revising all of NBA history in order to rationalize things for LeBron (not only erroneously comparing it to Kobe's situation, but even MJ, Bird, and Magic). I say to them, either don't mind that he's taking a different, arguably easier, path, or just stop rationalizing that it's the same as all the other great players that have led teams to championships, a group LeBron has yet to and may never join now. At least make him earn it before we reshape his legacy, same as Kobe.

BTW, here's what MJ himself had to say about it:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team. But...things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

Rather than rationalize LeBrons decision, I think I'm trying to say that perhaps Kobe wouldn't have acted all that differently had the pieces fallen for him the way they did for LeBron.

Also, I personally haven't revised all NBA history, I have only mentioned Kobe and the Lakers.  :troll:

You say that if Kobe had left he would have done so for a team built around him, and I say sure, but perhaps that's because he already had three rings won alongside a superstar and he was set to prove he could win one on his own.

Seriously though, in addition to 3 out of the 5 Eastern conference all-star starters on their team, they've already signed better role players than anyone thought they'd get, serviceable guys that could be starters on other teams. This is a super team already, and they're only going to get better players in the years to come.

I agree, they have definitely done better at signing other players than anyone thought they would at first, but those role players they have are just that, and while one can go as far as call this a super team like you said, calling it an all-star super team is a stretch.

They COULD have become real contenders? They won over 60 games, had the best record, top seed, and the MVP the last two years! They weren't just real contenders, they were the favorites to win it all! It came down to them not performing in the playoffs, that's all. Failing to win the games they needed to win, again and again. On paper, they were heavily favored to win both series they last the last two years. When they traded for Jamison, that was supposed to be the missing piece that put them over the top (I thought so as well). But, at some point, you have to play the games and have the heart to win against teams that aren't just going to roll over for you, and as a matter of fact, are more inspired against you because you're the best, so you'd better play like it. It's not like the Lakers just steamrolled the league in the playoffs the last two years (kind of like the Cavs did in the '09 playoffs, winning each game by 10 and sweeping every series until they were actually, ya know, challenged), the Lakers had to compete and earn those victories in hard fought playoff series and games that could have gone either way (I don't think we'd be making excuses for them had they lost =). LeBron and the Cavs were in position to compete the same way, but simply failed to live up to their potential. I still don't know how the Cavs lost really, other than they just wilted, it was honestly like watching a totally different team. I was deathly afraid they were going to beat the Lakers in the finals the past two years they looked so invincible, yet they just kept coming up small when it mattered most. Both teams were in position to win the title, the Cavs actually in better position than the Lakers with the top seed and homecourt, but while Kobe and the Lakers had to find a way to win, LeBron and the Cavs meanwhile kept finding ways to lose. At some point you just have to blame the players for not performing, LeBron included.

Favorites to win it all? Really? That's not how I perceived things. People were definitely wishing for/expecting a Lakers-Cavaliers finals but to favor the more inexperienced Cavs over the defending champions? Really?

Things done in the playoffs will not necessarily reflect what was done during the regular season and we can find examples in both directions just from last season: the Cavs failing to win and the Celtics doing what few thought they could (even late in the regular season); so having the best record (and with that the top seed) should not translate to the Cavs being favorites and it certainly didn't in my book.

I think the Lakers came on top because they had players that picked up the slack when Kobe wasn't at his best (Gasol and Artest on game 7 against the Celtics just to give an example) and I don't think LeBron had the same kind of support during the playoffs.

Well, I'm sure I can guess which team you're gravitating towards next year. :guts:

Well the Celtics, of course.  :carcus:

Seriously, why hate the Lakers though? You don't have to like them, but if they haven't beaten your team, if it's not personal, aren't you just hating greatness? I'm not just being a homer here, I feel the same about people hating the Spurs or the Patriots before they fell off, why hate teams just for being great? That's what they're supposed to be doing. I don't know, I've always hated teams that are undeserving, that constantly underachieve, or are seemingly forever mired in suckage from top to bottom, that torture their fans, that don't even try, teams that are a disgrace, basically.

The key issue here is that I'd feel the same way for the Lakers whether they kept on winning titles or had the worst record in the league in consecutive years.


Offline Griffith

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2010, 07:58:26 PM »
Rather than rationalize LeBrons decision, I think I'm trying to say that perhaps Kobe wouldn't have acted all that differently had the pieces fallen for him the way they did for LeBron.

And I don't think that's fair to say, as a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary. Kobe was going to go to Chicago and play on a team built around him, he wasn't going to piggyback on a team that already had a superstar of his caliber. LeBron is doing something very unique, and comparing it to Kobe is a stretch no matter how hypothetical you want to get. Anyway, what happened, happened.

Also, I personally haven't revised all NBA history, I have only mentioned Kobe and the Lakers.  :troll:

I've noticed. :guts:

There's a lot of other rationalizations ans suspect comparisons floating around out there though.

You say that if Kobe had left he would have done so for a team built around him, and I say sure, but perhaps that's because he already had three rings won alongside a superstar and he was set to prove he could win one on his own.

That's a fair point, but it goes back to the fact that Kobe wanted that challenge, and maybe LeBron doesn't. Instead, he's choosing the path of least resistance one could say.

I agree, they have definitely done better at signing other players than anyone thought they would at first, but those role players they have are just that, and while one can go as far as call this a super team like you said, calling it an all-star super team is a stretch.

Not at all. Every team has role players (even the Yankees), not every team has the two best players in the league and a top 3 big man to boot. As a matter of fact, no team does. So, stop already with the artificially deflated expectations. =)

Favorites to win it all? Really? That's not how I perceived things. People were definitely wishing for/expecting a Lakers-Cavaliers finals but to favor the more inexperienced Cavs over the defending champions? Really?

Things done in the playoffs will not necessarily reflect what was done during the regular season and we can find examples in both directions just from last season: the Cavs failing to win and the Celtics doing what few thought they could (even late in the regular season); so having the best record (and with that the top seed) should not translate to the Cavs being favorites and it certainly didn't in my book.

That's hindsight being 20/20. Hell yeah they were the favorites, both seasons. Of course we don't think of them as the favorites now, but at the time they certainly were, not only in the two series they lost, but to win it all both years. Just as the Lakers were clearly expected to get to the finals, and were certainly contenders to win, but there were plenty of questions regarding their health and chemistry going into the playoffs. Conversely, nobody expected the Celtics' run until it happened.

I think the Lakers came on top because they had players that picked up the slack when Kobe wasn't at his best (Gasol and Artest on game 7 against the Celtics just to give an example) and I don't think LeBron had the same kind of support during the playoffs.

That's definitely true, although Gasol wasn't at his best either in that game (I think he and Kobe went like 6 for 26 in the first half or something atrocious). They both picked it up in the second half, and their effort was there the whole game (as bad as Kobe was, he still had 23 points and 15 rebounds). They were clearly trying like Hell, as were the Celts. Same can't be said for LeBron and the Cavs. You could just see a defeated mentality once the going got tough with the Celtics. Lakers faced just as much adversity against the Celtics, and Gasol, Odom, and Artest even wilted like the Cavs in the 3 games in Boston, so Kobe tried to win it on his own in games 5, challenged the rest of the team afterward, and when they got back to LA, they all showed up in game 6. Kobe's team was more talented, but he also led them better. Instead of doing pre-game celebrations and goofing around, he was setting the tone and holding them accountable. While were comparing the two, let's also not forget LeBron's phantom elbow injury and subsequent no show's in the Boston series, you know, as compared to Kobe dragging the Lakers to another ring on a bum knee and a broken finger. The Cavs even quit in game 6 with a minute and a half left and the game still in reach, I've never seen anything like that. I don't mean to pile on LeBron, I actually really like him and think he's the best player in the league all things considered (age, etc), but just as I don't think he should really be trashed for this, he also shouldn't be praised or compared to players of accomplishment like Kobe until he achieves his own.

Well the Celtics, of course.  :carcus:

Ewww, really? That Celtics team is less likable than even the Lakers. Ever since they won in '08 they've been very arrogant and demonstrative towards their opponents, and not very well respected around the league for it. Not to mention they play an ugly style now that relies more on fouling than basketball skill (it's the only way they can win at this point). Liking the Suns or Orlando I understand, but these Celtics have been a bigger group of entitled jerks than anybody the last couple of years. I hope Miami puts them in their place next season, a bunch of old has-beens (I'm just worried the Lakers then join them in that category =).

The key issue here is that I'd feel the same way for the Lakers whether they kept on winning titles or had the worst record in the league in consecutive years.

That's my point, it's totally arbitrary! :guts:

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2010, 08:38:17 PM »
And I don't think that's fair to say, as a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary. Kobe was going to go to Chicago and play on a team built around him, he wasn't going to piggyback on a team that already had a superstar of his caliber. LeBron is doing something very unique, and comparing it to Kobe is a stretch no matter how hypothetical you want to get. Anyway, what happened, happened.

But I never said Kobe would have gone to a team that had a superstar, all I said was the if he hadn't gotten Gasol, chances are he would have left, and that is not too far-fetched to think.

That's a fair point, but it goes back to the fact that Kobe wanted that challenge, and maybe LeBron doesn't. Instead, he's choosing the path of least resistance one could say.

And Kobe wanted the challenge after having taken a path of least resistance with Shaq, and round and round we go. Perhaps LeBron will want the same challenge if he ever gets three rings.  :troll:

Not at all. Every team has role players (even the Yankees), not every team has the two best players in the league and a top 3 big man to boot. As a matter of fact, no team does. So, stop already with the artificially deflated expectations. =)

If the Heat have the two best players in the league and Kobe doesn't play for the Heat then Kobe is not in the two top players in the league. Did I read that right?  :troll:

It's not deflated expectations at all. This Heat team simply does not strike me as an all-star super team. Do you want to know what a team much closer to an all-star super team is to me? No problem, that team is called Barcelona FC.

That's hindsight being 20/20. Hell yeah they were the favorites, both seasons. Of course we don't think of them as the favorites now, but at the time they certainly were, not only in the two series they lost, but to win it all both years. Just as the Lakers were clearly expected to get to the finals, and were certainly contenders to win, but there were plenty of questions regarding their health and chemistry going into the playoffs. Conversely, nobody expected the Celtics' run until it happened.

I can honestly say the Cavs were never the favorites to me, not then, not now.

Ewww, really? That Celtics team is less likable than even the Lakers. Ever since they won in '08 they've been very arrogant and demonstrative towards their opponents, and not very well respected around the league for it. Not to mention they play an ugly style now that relies more on fouling than basketball skill (it's the only way they can win at this point). Liking the Suns or Orlando I understand, but these Celtics have been a bigger group of entitled jerks than anybody the last couple of years. I hope Miami puts them in their place next season, a bunch of old has-beens (I'm just worried the Lakers then join them in that category =).

I was just kidding. As I said, I like following the league, but that doesn't mean I have to gravitate towards a certain team, right?

That's my point, it's totally arbitrary! :guts:

And I don't deny it. But that is how it works with some of one's likes and dislikes, isn't it?  :slan:


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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2010, 09:09:21 PM »
But I never said Kobe would have gone to a team that had a superstar, all I said was the if he hadn't gotten Gasol, chances are he would have left, and that is not too far-fetched to think.

That is a fact, but other than both leaving their teams, the circumstances are very different. That's what I was pointing out.

And Kobe wanted the challenge after having taken a path of least resistance with Shaq, and round and round we go. Perhaps LeBron will want the same challenge if he ever gets three rings.  :troll:

Kobe didn't choose that path at all though, he was drafted into that situation, it was beyond his control, and he wrestled with that and even over control of that team with Shaq until he got it to himself; again, diametrically opposed to this situation in every way, haha. So, around and around you go with that. =)

If the Heat have the two best players in the league and Kobe doesn't play for the Heat then Kobe is not in the two top players in the league. Did I read that right?  :troll:

I'm being generous in my projection, Kobe's more skilled and more accomplished certainly, but he's going to be 32 years old with injury concerns when this season starts, while Wade and LeBron are still in their prime, and Durant is still green. I'm just being honest and realistic here. LeBron is more productive player than Michael Jordan is today as well, for what that's worth... though still not as ready to lead a team, obviously. :guts:

It's not deflated expectations at all. This Heat team simply does not strike me as an all-star super team. Do you want to know what a team much closer to an all-star super team is to me? No problem, that team is called Barcelona FC.

Do they play in the Central Division? :troll:

I can honestly say the Cavs were never the favorites to me, not then, not now.

Good foresight on your part, I'm just recalling the general consensus, and a fair expectation for a team that achieved the way they did. You're not going to find too many teams in NBA history with the best record and the, supposed, MVP falling apart in the playoffs back to back years, not even making the Finals. Don't think its happened before.

I was just kidding. As I said, I like following the league, but that doesn't mean I have to gravitate towards a certain team, right?

True, but you already sound primed to suck up to the half-king's of the Heat and their attempt to gang rape the championship. :carcus:

And I don't deny it. But that is how it works with some of one's likes and dislikes, isn't it?  :slan:

Yeah, but I think you have reasons. There's Kobe, there's the recent and historical success, the money, the city, showtime, the fairweather/celebrity fans. I understand what about the Lakers drives people crazy, it's just strange coming from someone without a rooting interest otherwise. It's like you're from the dark side, you don't love anybody, you just hate. You're a hater. :ganishka:

Offline m

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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2010, 03:43:34 PM »
Kobe didn't choose that path at all though, he was drafted into that situation, it was beyond his control, and he wrestled with that and even over control of that team with Shaq until he got it to himself; again, diametrically opposed to this situation in every way, haha. So, around and around you go with that. =)

I never said he chose it, I said he took it, and that he did. I don't remember seeing him complaining when he got those three rings, though, but I guess he was just making the best out of the situation.  :troll:

I'm being generous in my projection, Kobe's more skilled and more accomplished certainly, but he's going to be 32 years old with injury concerns when this season starts, while Wade and LeBron are still in their prime, and Durant is still green. I'm just being honest and realistic here. LeBron is more productive player than Michael Jordan is today as well, for what that's worth... though still not as ready to lead a team, obviously. :guts:

I can't believe it, you, the Lakers ardent fan, don't think that Kobe is in the two top players in the league while I, the Laker hater, do. Go figure.

True, but you already sound primed to suck up to the half-king's of the Heat and their attempt to gang rape the championship. :carcus:

As long as the Lakers get some of that in the process.... :troll:

Yeah, but I think you have reasons. There's Kobe, there's the recent and historical success, the money, the city, showtime, the fairweather/celebrity fans. I understand what about the Lakers drives people crazy, it's just strange coming from someone without a rooting interest otherwise. It's like you're from the dark side, you don't love anybody, you just hate. You're a hater. :ganishka:

Oh, but I am a fan of some teams, just not in American sports; so I'm only partly hater.  :slan: An example of a team I root for? No problem, Barcelona FC.


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Re: LAKERS!
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2010, 06:41:51 PM »
I never said he chose it, I said he took it, and that he did. I don't remember seeing him complaining when he got those three rings, though, but I guess he was just making the best out of the situation.  :troll:

Fun's fun, but the ratio of troll emots is getting too high for any serious basketball talk. =)

Anyway, I'm not really concerned about semantics, the point is when Kobe faced free agency he chose a more challenging way through rebuilding around him, while LeBron has chosen an easier way teaming with two other superstars, their roles together currently up in the air. I don't think that's going to matter though if LeBron wins more championships and finals MVPs. The real tragedy of the Shaq/Kobe power struggle is both their careers would have been better off had they gotten along, the team naturally transitioning from Shaq's to Kobe's while they kept winning. Especially for Shaq, they could have become the new Magic and Kareem, won more titles, and both retired as Laker greats. Instead, while Kobe is now getting consideration as the greatest Laker ever, Shaq is now a rent-a-center mercenary with no team to call his own (even those first three rings are more prominent in the context of Kobe's career now)... until Shaq comes crawling back to L.A. after retirement, of course.

I can't believe it, you, the Lakers ardent fan, don't think that Kobe is in the two top players in the league while I, the Laker hater, do. Go figure.

I try to be objective, age matters, and Kobe's got to get old some time. I do think Kobe is a much more skilled basketball player than anybody else, probably ever, but it's a matter of overall value. If Kobe was healthy and in his prime, then nobody could beat this Laker team, but we'll see, Gasol and Bynum are going to have to make up the difference as he gets older (and he's going to have to become more efficient and defer more as a playmaker if it's going to work, not sure he'll fully make the adjustment). It's a shame the one part of his career he didn't have a competitive team was in his absolute prime when he could literally outscore teams by himself.

As long as the Lakers get some of that in the process.... :troll:

Well, let's see if they both get there first, they each have their hurdles to get over in each conference. Lakers have to get past everyone chasing them out West (the Thunder and Jazz come to mind), and Miami, though the sky is the limit, certainly hasn't proven anything, and really can't until the playoffs.

Oh, but I am a fan of some teams, just not in American sports; so I'm only partly hater.  :slan: An example of a team I root for? No problem, Barcelona FC.

How ironic that you root for the Lakers of Spanish football. :carcus: