Author Topic: Griffith for the greater good?  (Read 3450 times)

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Offline Lord Leith

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Griffith for the greater good?
« on: December 14, 2011, 11:25:32 PM »
If this topic has already been done before, then I apologize, I'm simply curious over the opinions here over this speculation.

Now of course, we all (or at least the vast majority I assume) associate Guts as the protagonist, and Griffith as a main villain, but we got to keep in mind this is from the perspective of a reader. In the context of their own world, can Griffith be the one with a greater cause?

Guts motivations are purely personal, (at least from what I can see), Griffith of course has the personal motivation to have his own kingdom, but what would be your reaction if Griffith did turn out to be the messiah people view him as? I have doubts of course since he is part of God Hand, but his goals seem to be of more importance to him then his role as a figure of God Hand.

Based off that Lost chapter, (though from my understand, it's non canon now), has things just been planned up for Griffith to simply rule a kingdom, and possibly if he had the intention, create a sort of Utopia? Again, this is just pure speculation, so I apologize in advance if I have made some mistakes.

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 11:50:58 PM »
Griffith was designed from birth to become the fifth God Hand, everything about him including his goal to get his kingdom is all a part of Idea's plan....


he's like the antichrist in my opinion... very talented at deceiving the public to think he's good in order to conquer the world. He is both the messiah people envisioned and the bringer of the Age of Darkness.

My thoughts, simplified.  :schnoz:

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 12:43:07 AM »
I believe it was Femto who recently said something like, "It is he who exists within the darkness who bears light." Griffith is a bad dude by default at this point. I'm curious as to what he's going to be up to when he's king. Because, right now he's won the hearts of both apostles and humans.

You gotta remember, while Griffith is about to see his dream come true, he has ulterior motives now. He serves the will of evil itself.

I wonder though. If mankind's desire was Fantasia, how does that relate to the Idea of Evil, since he was born from humanity wishing for a cause for all the bad stuff that happens.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 01:47:43 AM »
Guts motivations are purely personal, (at least from what I can see)

They're personal, but also quite ideological at this point, and can easily be expanded from "I'm doing this for myself" to "I'm doing this for everybody." Of course, Guts might just do it for himself even if everybody doesn't know what's good for them.

If Griffith, and by extension the rest of the God Hand and the Idea of Evil, truly serve mankind's will, however slavish it may be, then maybe everyone isn't going to want to be saved, no matter how sinister the subtext of such a "utopia." We've already seen signs of such acceptance in the previous battle, then again, we haven't seen what comes after. Perhaps in a twist it will be legitimately utopian, as observed by the pope, humans and Apostles cooperatively navigating a new supernatural order that's even bigger than them (the Apostles looked as genuinely mystified by Falconia as the people). After all, let's say the whole point of this isn't a giant human luau (no eating allied humans so far under Griffith's watch, and they've basically laid it all out there now), or even if there has to be sacrifices (forgive the choice of words =), what if they pale in comparison to the damage and death humans inflict upon themselves? It's the the old peace at what cost debate, particularly in regards to freedom. In that case Guts could find himself in the familiar role of reluctant and unappreciated hero, or even a villain.

My thoughts, simplified.  :schnoz:

I'll do you one better, tell me if you've heard this one before: Guts = Good, Griffith = Bad. We can spare ourselves a lot of theoretical philosophizing over the meaning of evil as it relates to the will of mankind and such by taking it that easy.

You gotta remember, while Griffith is about to see his dream come true, he has ulterior motives now. He serves the will of evil itself.

That will is the million dollar question. Following the above model though, it's going to end up badly one way or another. Even good intentions lead to Hell after all, and there's plenty of reason to suspect the intentions are bad to begin with.

I wonder though. If mankind's desire was Fantasia, how does that relate to the Idea of Evil, since he was born from humanity wishing for a cause for all the bad stuff that happens.

There's a great literal translation of that: Falconia as the ultimate shitty central government everyone blames for their problems! :ganishka:

I'll give you the cause for everything bad according to them though:
WANTED

THE BLACK SWORDSMAN
KNOWN TERRORIST AND ASSOCIATES
DEAD OR ALIVE

Coming to an ivory wall near you. :griffnotevil:

Offline Lord Leith

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 02:01:50 AM »
Hahaha love the wanted poster, great work  :ubik:

Interesting replies, it's true that by this point, Guts motivations aren't purely personal but I think we both understand that I mean his pure drive, if Casca and Griffith were dead, I cant imagine what drive Guts would have to continue living, Griffith is his goal to reach and kill, while Casca he feels obligated to protect (rightfully so).

Hmm true, the idea of Griffith being a deceptive figure is warrented based on his characteristics or behaviour before, but maybe it can't really be deception if as you said, the people dont want to be saved, atleast subconsciously.

It would be rather interesting to see how the world would function after becoming some form of a Utopia, considering the result regardless of what it may seem, would end up being bad, just the process of what would seem to be a perfect world, ending up going wrong, with Guts as the true hero, sounds like a volume I would definately buy in a heart beat (well that can go for all volumes I guess  :troll: )

Offline Walter

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 02:10:23 AM »
If this topic has already been done before, then I apologize, I'm simply curious over the opinions here over this speculation.
It's been done a few times, but none in the past 3-5 years or so, so I don't necessarily mind a refresher now and then for newer members.

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In the context of their own world, can Griffith be the one with a greater cause?
I don't think so, no. I doubt Miura will ultimately allow readers to sympathize very much with Griffith because he shed his humanity. In the world of Berserk, if you meddle with the dark, you get dragged down with it. Those that retain their humanity are the true heroes of the series. Thus the villains are those who shed their humanity in moments of personal weakness. Despite any power they may wield, it's power bought with the loss of their soul.

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Guts motivations are purely personal, (at least from what I can see), Griffith of course has the personal motivation to have his own kingdom, but what would be your reaction if Griffith did turn out to be the messiah people view him as? I have doubts of course since he is part of God Hand, but his goals seem to be of more importance to him then his role as a figure of God Hand.
I think you're overstating what we truly know about Griffith's motivations after his transfiguration. He's been disturbingly quiet about his goals since that time. He tells Guts that he wants his kingdom, as always, at the Hill of Swords. But that's never been the heart of what Griffith truly wanted. If you carefully read his monologue to Guts in volume 3 (during the flashback at the end of the Black Swordsman arc), you'll see that what he's always wanted is to be shown what his role was in the world. He wanted to become one of those key figures that set the world into motion. Thinking of it from that perspective, the castle and kingdom become merely symbols for him to achieve along this path, but not necessarily the end goal.

But you don't have to look at things that hard to know that Griffith isn't likely to sit on his throne, content until the end of time.

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Based off that Lost EPISODE, (though from my understand, it's non canon now), has things just been planned up for Griffith to simply rule a kingdom, and possibly if he had the intention, create a sort of Utopia? Again, this is just pure speculation, so I apologize in advance if I have made some mistakes.
Somehow, I sincerely doubt that the Idea of Evil set wheels in motion for a millennia to create a utopia for humans. It's not as if the new world that has come into being is necessarily favorable for humans anyway. And things just got started! Imagine how it'll be in 10 years.

Griffith was designed from birth to become the fifth God Hand
Actually, it's from well before the time that he was born. IoE: "I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are."

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he's like the antichrist in my opinion... very talented at deceiving the public to think he's good in order to conquer the world. He is both the messiah people envisioned and the bringer of the Age of Darkness.
Technical understatement, but "talent" doesn't have much to do with it at this point. His very existence and aura compels apostles and humans to draw to him, and to trust him.

I believe it was Femto who recently said something like, "It is he who exists within the darkness who bears light." Griffith is a bad dude by default at this point. I'm curious as to what he's going to be up to when he's king. Because, right now he's won the hearts of both apostles and humans.
While I generally agree with your statements, that quote in particular doesn't necessarily mean that he's evil though. Here's the full line:

"Femto: Since the light-bearer exists in the thickest darkness ... So it’s in the darkness that the true light can be found."

It's a very enigmatic line, the full meaning of which we can't yet decipher. In the analogy, Femto may well be this dark light-bearer, or he may even be referring to the Idea of Evil.

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You gotta remember, while Griffith is about to see his dream come true, he has ulterior motives now. He serves the will of evil itself.
The God Hand don't serve anyone. "Do as you will" is their mantra.  :void: :ubik: :slan: :femto:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Lord Leith

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 03:00:24 AM »
Ahh okie dokie, thanks Walter, I speculated that this topic must have been done before but I didn't find a thread, so I thought I might as well.

Hmm, you got a very valid point about the humanity heroes thing, it would be a little strange to see characters who have given up humanity, doing something that could benefit others, in any human way.

Hmm, well it is too early to accurately speculate Griffith's deep motivations, Im a little impatient, deep themes presented in stories like Berserk will probably get everyone's head thinking, you would know Im sure since you have so much knowledge over this masterpiece.

Aye, understood, its an episode  :farnese: Im too used to the term chapter being applied to a book of any sort.

Offline Walter

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 03:20:36 AM »
Aye, understood, its an episode  :farnese: Im too used to the term chapter being applied to a book of any sort.
There are still chapters in Berserk, but they denote longer sections of the series. I.E. Chapter of Lost Children. Chapter of Falconia. etc.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Gill

Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2011, 03:05:52 PM »
I think, it's because of their way of thinking that we can state that Guts is the "good guy"...

Although Griffith might've done good things for other people, he did it in order to fulfill his selfish dream about becoming a powerful ruler, who can control people like little insects...
While Guts, although killing hundreds of people, was always a good person in soul... He knows the difference between right and wrong. Cares about other people's feelings, needs love etc. like other normal human beings do  :ganishka: But Griffith doesn't care about hurting people except if it would interfere in his own plans.
If Guts did something wrong, he did it because he didn't have any other choice - he killed to survive, he made love because he was in love, and had to sleep with a man because he couldn't do anything against it... But Griffith did exactly the same things only to fulfill his plan, which is a pretty evil, selfish and unnatural behaviour in my eyes.  :griffnotevil:

So I think, although what they've done to and are viewed by the world around them, Guts is still obviously the protagonist, because his morals are a good example... Not like Griffith's, who is the perfect example of the nice-looking psychopath, who can mislead people to follow him and his "good-for-everybody-looking" plans.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Griffith for the greater good?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 04:44:45 PM »
Better late than never, so...

Although Griffith might've done good things for other people, he did it in order to fulfill his selfish dream about becoming a powerful ruler, who can control people like little insects...

While Guts, although killing hundreds of people, was always a good person in soul... He knows the difference between right and wrong. Cares about other people's feelings, needs love etc. like other normal human beings do  :ganishka: But Griffith doesn't care about hurting people except if it would interfere in his own plans.

What you're saying basically amounts to Guts is good no matter what he does (killing hundreds of people) and Griffith is bad no matter what he does (acting out of principle, compassion or emotion), and then you made everything fit that narrative even though the facts are far more complex and contradictory than that. Generally speaking, Griffith has displayed all those positive traits you mentioned for Guts, while Guts has also displayed those negative ones you mentioned for Griffith. Griffith has felt for his lost men and succumbed to his personal feelings, and he's helped people for no other reason than to help them, just as Guts has literally compared people to insects he can't worry about crushing under his feet, while also abandoning friends and loved ones for his own selfish desires.
 
If Guts did something wrong, he did it because he didn't have any other choice - he killed to survive

He killed because he didn't know any better, but it wasn't always as simple or noble as you make it sound, like it was him or them. For example, he didn't have to assassinate the Prince or his son to survive, and in fact he was given a choice and chose to do it without hesitation. Guts is a killer by profession, and while that's what he grew up with, he could have done something else if he needed only to survive. To that end killing became just as much a matter of his ambition as it was with Griffith, but without the loftier goal. One could argue Guts was killing literally for the sport of it (perfecting his craft, to put it more nicely) and was even more dissociated from the consequences of killing than Griffith.

he made love because he was in love, and had to sleep with a man because he couldn't do anything against it... But Griffith did exactly the same things only to fulfill his plan, which is a pretty evil, selfish and unnatural behaviour in my eyes.  :griffnotevil:

You're completely distorting the context of the very example you're using. Griffith slept with Gennon precisely because he was so broken up about the death of one in his service; it was his way of sacrificing himself out of compassion for his men. To the point above, he felt the consequences of people that died because of him, even if it wasn't by his hand. He was also mutilating himself over the whole affair if the sexual behavior wasn't self-loathing/abusive enough to show genuine human feeling.

My problem with all this is beyond simple inaccuracy is you're glossing over their inherent complexities, contradictions, and most of all similarities, a comparative theme which continue to evolve and which makes them especially interesting.