Author Topic: The Hawks always fought for Midland, or just recently?  (Read 2510 times)

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Offline ApostleBob

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The Hawks always fought for Midland, or just recently?
« on: February 06, 2012, 09:57:53 PM »
There's something I've always wondered about that I don't believe is ever explicitly stated in the Manga.  I've never seen it discussed so I figured it warranted a new topic.

The Band of the Hawk's battle against the Black Rams is the first battle where we see them specifically fighting on Midland's behalf in the 100 year war.  Prior to that we witness them engaged in several battles with no clearly defined sides.  I'm talking about the Bazūso battle, the battle where Guts is the rear guard, and the one just prior to the time skip.  My question is whether we can assume these prior battles were a part of the 100 year war between Midland and Tudor or if these are assumed to be random battle between individual feudal lords.   :???:

I realize we'll never get an official answer to this, but I'm just wondering how everyone else took it.  Now I know that the Hawks are mercenaries, not some nations personal army, but I'm sure the biggest and regular paydays would come from a national sponsorship versus private ones.  Plus it plays toward Griffith's dream to get national favor.  Personally I always assumed that Midland was a regular client of theirs and that their popularity and Griffith's Knighthood was a culmination of a long history of service to Midland as opposed to the Black Ram victory alone.  Am I off?

As a side question, in the Bazūso battle, I've always assumed the Hawks were the sole defenders of the castle.  This would make Bazūso a former member of the Hawks.  Perhaps even the former Raider Captain that Guts replaces (wild speculation, I know).   :slan:

Does this sound at all accurate?   Or is it more likely that their were several mercenary companies hired to defend that castle and that Bazūso was a member of another of them.  He does have a very non-Hawks emblem on his armor and battle ax.  

Before anyone says it, I know the answers to these questions have little bearing on the actual plot.  I'm only asking for a richer understanding of the Berserk universe, and I'm aware that any answers will rely on a lot of assumption and reading between the lines.

Offline Walter

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Re: The Hawks always fought for Midland, or just recently?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 10:15:32 PM »
It's never explicitly stated, but as a mercenary band focused on raising funds, they had no reason to ally themselves with a kingdom's cause until Griffith seized the opportunity to impress the King of Midland.

We can infer that Griffith probably chose to ally with Midland over Tudor before this encounter. That being the case, it's possible that he removed The Hawks from any potential skirmishes against Midland forces. But again, specifics aren't given until that Black Rams battle. That's also the first time that we get a larger context to the battles we've seen in the series thus far: the Hundred Years War.

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My question is whether we can assume these prior battles were a part of the 100 year war between Midland and Tudor or if these are assumed to be random battle between individual feudal lords.
I believe we can safely assume that all of these battles stem from the constant turf war that ensues in a 100-year-war between two massive kingdoms. Even the skirmishes of feudal lords are tied to the overall war. Nobles tend to ally themselves with a larger country. And, afterall, the King says peace will reign after the armistice is signed between the two nations.

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This would make Bazūso a former member of the Hawks.  Perhaps even the former Raider Captain that Guts replaces (wild speculation, I know).
Nah, among other reasons this isn't true, remember that Carcus says he wanted to take out Bazuso himself, and felt jealous that Guts did it before him (really it's just big talk from Carcus, but...).

Edit: Moving this to Manga Mausoleum, as it's really not a speculation.
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Offline ApostleBob

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Re: The Hawks always fought for Midland, or just recently?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 11:48:13 PM »
It's never explicitly stated, but as a mercenary band focused on raising funds, they had no reason to ally themselves with a kingdom's cause until Griffith seized the opportunity to impress the King of Midland.

Makes sense.  The Hawks stand out more if they make a few spectacular victories versus a long series of smaller ones.  It gives the Hawks a chance to build their army and resources, not to mention skill.

That being the case, it's possible that he removed The Hawks from any potential skirmishes against Midland forces.
Even the skirmishes of feudal lords are tied to the overall war. Nobles tend to ally themselves with a larger country.

But by this logic, if all the feudal lords are tied to the hundred year war and allied to one side or another, and we infer that Griffith would avoid siding against Midland for political reasons, couldn't we extend that logic to say he probably sided with Midland quite often?  Unless you're saying he wouldn't skirmish against Midland's "Official" forces like a regular army, as opposed to the mercenaries they might employ.

Nah, among other reasons this isn't true, remember that Carcus says he wanted to take out Bazuso himself, and felt jealous that Guts did it before him (really it's just big talk from Carcus, but...).

That makes sense, though Carcus was never known for fierce loyalty to other Hawks.  Just look at the insubordination he show'd Casca and the way he treats Guts.  But in that case, are you saying that the first battle had several Mercenary companies allied to defend the castle?  If so, why would Guts single out the Hawks for being responsible for it's exceptional defense?  I could see it going either way really.

Offline Walter

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Re: The Hawks always fought for Midland, or just recently?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 04:33:41 AM »
Unless you're saying he wouldn't skirmish against Midland's "Official" forces like a regular army, as opposed to the mercenaries they might employ.
^---This. But again, who knows? If we presume Griffith had a grand plan for how the dominos were going to fall, and ultimately chose Midland, then he likely would have tried to position himself as best he could to not be repellent to Midland forces, all in preparation for the time that he'd be recognized. That means not being someone who slaughtered thousands of their forces.  That all makes sense to me, but we are never given any specific insight into the motivation behind the jobs Griffith chose for his group, other than at one time they were very poor and desperate for war funds.

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That makes sense, though Carcus was never known for fierce loyalty to other Hawks.  Just look at the insubordination he show'd Casca and the way he treats Guts.
I think you've really misjudged Carcus, which is pretty common. He stayed with the Hawks until the bitter end. He complains a lot, and talks big, but he's as loyal as any of them and truly believed in Griffith.   As for the way he treats Guts, in his own way he was just being protective of his comrades. He saw Guts as a threat to the integrity of everything he'd fought for (and rightly so, as it ended up).

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But in that case, are you saying that the first battle had several Mercenary companies allied to defend the castle?
I don't think that's such an outlandish idea. Did Guts strike you as someone who was allied with one particular mercenary company in that scene? Bazuso could have been the same -- just another mercenary  on a job.
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Offline ApostleBob

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Re: The Hawks always fought for Midland, or just recently?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 05:56:58 AM »
Thanks for the responses Walter.  Good food for thought.  We'll never really know how it went down, but as you say, while Griffith probably didn't fight exclusively for Midland, he might have taken precautions to avoid any ill will.  

I think you've really misjudged Carcus, which is pretty common. He stayed with the Hawks until the bitter end. He complains a lot, and talks big, but he's as loyal as any of them and truly believed in Griffith.   As for the way he treats Guts, in his own way he was just being protective of his comrades. He saw Guts as a threat to the integrity of everything he'd fought for (and rightly so, as it ended up).

Well when you  consider that I thought Bazuso was a Hawk and that Carcus was ready to backstab him for bragging rights, it tainted my impression of they guy from the start.  He has been steadfastly loyal to Griffith throughout, and he's always willing to speak the ugly truth that no one wants to hear.  I don't blame his distrust of Guts, but he's also quite dickish to Casca and Rickert which isn't a quality of a team player.  But I guess he often keeps everyone down to earth.  I think his talk with Guts in the tavern still rings very true.  

I don't think that's such an outlandish idea. Did Guts strike you as someone who was allied with one particular mercenary company in that scene? Bazuso could have been the same -- just another mercenary  on a job.

Nope this all makes sense.  We just don't see a lot of mixed mercenary companies together in the series.  Most are pretty unified or at least the Hawks and Gambino's organization has skewed my image of them.  I guess we can assume that the 100 man fight was made up of free-lance mercs versus a single group fighting for Adon.