Author Topic: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand  (Read 6422 times)

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Offline Tama

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Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« on: November 27, 2012, 04:47:25 PM »
Hello everyone,

I started to re-read my graphic novels of Berserk and have come up with a handful of questions. I did browse the search engine and didn't find the answer to these so if I missed it please forgive me. I am reading the Dark Horse translation in case something has been changed due to language.

1. Throughout the majority of Berserk's story (before Fantasia appearing) it seems as though most people in the world do not believe in elves and magical creatures, as though it was a rare occurence if you are able to see them, and yet in the beginning of the Black Swordsman when it shows the bar that Puck is being toyed with by the bandits, they can clearly see him as well as other customers in the bar commenting on Puck. I did read the episode where Puck gives a brief explination to Guts about why some humans can see him in the later volumes, but I guess I still don't quite understand it. Are elves just suppose to be more accepted as creatures that live in this world? Most humans who run into or are near apostiles in the story are struck with awe and fear, and the notion that these things cannot exist in the world, and yet elves seem to be okay.

2. In episode "A way through" in volume 10, we finally see the king again after a period of time when he attempted to rape his daughter. The king looks very sick, is shaking and his complextion is very aged. Are we to believe that the fact he couldn't have Charlotte the way he wanted and his hatred for Griffith made his health look like that? Or did I miss something and he has another sickness?

3. In episode "The flying one" in volume 11, Zodd makes an appearance. Why exactly did he show up during that time? The only conclusion I could come to was that he was either attracted to another apostile and was near the area, or maybe Griffith or the egg of the king itself.

4. Question about the vortex of souls in general. Because Guts and Casca are branded, does that mean that no matter what happens at this point (or what we've seen currently), when they die, no matter how they die, they are going to the vortex of souls?

Thank you for all the help!

Offline Draculoid

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 05:44:19 PM »
I'm sure a more educated member can fill you in on these things a bit better but I'll do my best.

1. This is a good point, as later we discover not everyone can see Elves such as Farnese. This I feel is more done to show that people who deny their existence cannot see them, more so then those who do not 100% believe cannot see them. I thought at first when you posed the question that perhaps it was so early in the story that Miura may not have thought about the mystic elements and Elves as well as who can and can't see them, but if you remember it was taking place in the town controlled by the Snake Baron. The villagers were most likely quite suspicious of super natural behaviour or there would have at least probably been rumours spreading around of the Snake Baron being some sort of demon. This would lead me to believe the majority of the villagers did not necessarily deny the existence of magic, and maybe believed the possibility in their subconscious, at least those in the tavern.

2. His appearance is based on his hatred and twisted mind after the events you mentioned. You didn't miss anything like a real physical illness or something.

3. Zodd has already shown he can appear at critical moments and seems to have somewhat of a grasp on causality and Guts/Griffiths faiths as seen when he appeared to throw his sword at the battle of Doldrey. Wyald immediately begins by attempting to ask the same question ("what are you doing here?") the conversation then leads to Zodd claiming how, like Wyald, he is free to act independently. I rationalize this as him always sort of "observing" or having a sense of things.

4. This one I am a bit more puzzled by...I mean...their souls will return to the vortex i guess? They are branded for sacrifice like the others killed in the occulation ceremony by apostles, they share a similar fate of being physically killed and consumed by apostles.

I hope that helped! Hopefully somone can correct me too if I'm off.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 05:56:21 PM »
Hey there!

1. Throughout the majority of Berserk's story (before Fantasia appearing) it seems as though most people in the world do not believe in elves and magical creatures, as though it was a rare occurence if you are able to see them, and yet in the beginning of the Black Swordsman when it shows the bar that Puck is being toyed with by the bandits, they can clearly see him as well as other customers in the bar commenting on Puck. I did read the episode where Puck gives a brief explination to Guts about why some humans can see him in the later volumes, but I guess I still don't quite understand it. Are elves just suppose to be more accepted as creatures that live in this world? Most humans who run into or are near apostiles in the story are struck with awe and fear, and the notion that these things cannot exist in the world, and yet elves seem to be okay.

I wouldn't say "throughout the majority of the story". Judo had met Puck before and had acquired some of his powder (which he gave to Casca so that she could heal Guts' wounds), and in both Jill's village and Enoch people had no problem seeing elves. In certain contexts, as explained by Puck, some humans get to not see them anymore, but it's because they psychologically block them out of their mind. It's like they refuse to pay attention to them. They actually see them, but they're so indoctrined, in a way, that they ignore them to the point of not even noticing them anymore. But it doesn't mean that elves can't interact with them: they can and Puck often takes advantage of it for humorous purposes. The Holy See played a huge role in this, and it's a phenomenon more common in bigger cities than remote villages, but the elves had also been leaving the world as mentioned repeatedly (Godot's mine, Misty Valley), and so became rarer (and in general astral beings had become pretty rare before Femto's incarnation).

So, in the same way that Puck can play with a clueless human in Vritannis, beings like spectres can interact with humans as well. So as shown in volume 17, while it's relatively easy to block a harmless being like an elf out of your mind, with evil creatures that try to kill you, possess you and so on it's not the same. With apostles it's even worse as they're bigger and look generally like humans, so there'd be no reason even for the most fervent to subconsciously try to ignore them.

2. In episode "A way through" in volume 10, we finally see the king again after a period of time when he attempted to rape his daughter. The king looks very sick, is shaking and his complextion is very aged. Are we to believe that the fact he couldn't have Charlotte the way he wanted and his hatred for Griffith made his health look like that? Or did I miss something and he has another sickness?

Not much detail is given, but the events with Charlotte and Griffith definitely played the main part in his mental health declining. For his physical health, whether it was related or not remains unspecified. Let's just say that it was meant to be (causality...). Everything went as planned, from the fall of Midland to the Kushan invasion until the advent of Fantasia.

3. In episode "The flying one" in volume 11, Zodd makes an appearance. Why exactly did he show up during that time? The only conclusion I could come to was that he was either attracted to another apostile and was near the area, or maybe Griffith or the egg of the king itself.

He was traveling to where the Occultation ceremony was going to take place, like all (or the vast majority of) the other apostles. That is why Charlotte saw him from afar in the sky as he passed over Wyndham. And then he stopped by on the way to rip the dying Wyald in half and end his miserable existence. Same reason the Slug Count and Rochine butchered the members of the Band of the Falcon who'd stayed behind: they happened to be passing by and just helped themselves when they stumbled on the group.

4. Question about the vortex of souls in general. Because Guts and Casca are branded, does that mean that no matter what happens at this point (or what we've seen currently), when they die, no matter how they die, they are going to the vortex of souls?

So far it would seem that yes, that's what will happen. But you know, our knowledge of what's possible or not is very limited. It wasn't in Flora's power, but for all we know the King of the Flower Storm might tell them in Elfhelm that there is a way to be freed from the Brand after all. But right now, as far as we know, it's inescapable.

Offline Tama

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 07:00:08 PM »
Thank you for the answers, they were very insightful!

Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 09:06:55 PM »
Always fun to answer older stuff. Aaz answered the big stuff well, but I wanted to toss in my feelings on two points he made.

The king looks very sick, is shaking and his complextion is very aged. Are we to believe that the fact he couldn't have Charlotte the way he wanted and his hatred for Griffith made his health look like that? Or did I miss something and he has another sickness?
Not much detail is given, but the events with Charlotte and Griffith definitely played the main part in his mental health declining. For his physical health, whether it was related or not remains unspecified. Let's just say that it was meant to be (causality...). Everything went as planned, from the fall of Midland to the Kushan invasion until the advent of Fantasia.
The sudden change in the king's appearance is intended to be dramatic. After he realized his feelings, and his daughter rejected him, he was a broken man, and everything about him degenerated. And sure, it paved the way for his passing later on in the series.

Quote
He was traveling to where the Occultation ceremony was going to take place, like all (or the vast majority of) the other apostles. That is why Charlotte saw him from afar in the sky as he passed over Wyndham. And then he stopped by on the way to rip the dying Wyald in half and end his miserable existence. Same reason the Slug Count and Rochine butchered the members of the Band of the Falcon who'd stayed behind: they happened to be passing by and just helped themselves when they stumbled on the group.
I think it's more than just a passing thing though. Zodd has expressed a special interest in Griffith and Guts before. It's why he intervened to help them at Doldrey. I tend to think Zodd was course-correcting in both instances, even though his own explanation is that he was doing whatever he wanted.
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Offline Tama

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 06:11:06 PM »
After re-reading some more volumes of the manga, I've come up with a few more questions. Not sure if you want a new thread for this but I'll just post it here for now.

1. In volume 20, episode "One unknown in the depths of depths", The beherit apostle is talking to Luca about his story and how his sacrifice was the world, and everyone around him. How exactly does this work? I thought that previously the god hand had mentioned that it's only something precious to you that can make a suitable sacrifice, and it's usually something that is very dear to the person. It seems like when the beherit was human he hated everyone and was essentially an outcast. I'm probably misunderstanding something so I just need some clarification.

2. In volume 23, episode "Wings of light and darkness" we see that Mule is being taken to meet Griffith. He eventually comes to the band of apostles in the woods, and while he does remark that something feels very inhuman about them, I'm curious about something. We know from his tour in the episode that there are other humans that Griffith has recruited, and to me it seems a little silly that nobody would think it's strange that there are these armored supposed humans running around on all fours, or the hulking ones 7 feet taller than the average person that's part of the group. So the only conclusion I came to is that Griffith's charisma and charm is so strong that he makes people dismiss the notion of how unreal things are or seem to be.

3. In Voume 28, episode "The boy in the moonlight" afters Guts and co find the boy by the shore with Casca, before they leave Guts looks back up at the cliffs and thinks someone is there. We do get a shot of the top of the cliff, but who was it suppose to be? Skull Knight was just there a while ago, but I wouldn't think he would be sticking around after that. Part of the rocks kind of look like a Zodd horn, but why would he be there? Maybe it's just suppose to be left ambiguous.

Thank you again for all the info!

Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 06:43:10 PM »
1. In volume 20, episode "One unknown in the depths of depths", The beherit apostle is talking to Luca about his story and how his sacrifice was the world, and everyone around him. How exactly does this work?
It's a good question for a rather esoteric subject. But he actually sacrifices _his_ world, meaning his existence. Note that the brand is on his own tongue. Anyway, he cared enough about the world to want to change it, and his sacrifice is also hinged on that. And if you want to speak metaphorically, the old world is ultimately sacrificed in favor of a new one.

Quote
the only conclusion I came to is that Griffith's charisma and charm is so strong that he makes people dismiss the notion of how unreal things are or seem to be.
More or less, yeah. That exact question is addressed by us seeing how Mule accepts it and goes along with everything despite the obvious sense of inhuman danger that he senses around them.

Quote
3. In Voume 28, episode "The boy in the moonlight" afters Guts and co find the boy by the shore with Casca, before they leave Guts looks back up at the cliffs and thinks someone is there. We do get a shot of the top of the cliff, but who was it suppose to be? Skull Knight was just there a while ago, but I wouldn't think he would be sticking around after that. Part of the rocks kind of look like a Zodd horn, but why would he be there? Maybe it's just suppose to be left ambiguous.
That page with Guts looking back was actually added to the volume edition, and adds emphasis to that mysterious silhouette on the cliff. Why was Zodd there? Well, Aazealh addressed this a few years ago, and it's a pretty big deal. You should definitely check it out: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=4321.msg118658#msg118658
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 08:35:04 PM »
1. In volume 20, episode "One unknown in the depths of depths", The beherit apostle is talking to Luca about his story and how his sacrifice was the world, and everyone around him. How exactly does this work? I thought that previously the god hand had mentioned that it's only something precious to you that can make a suitable sacrifice, and it's usually something that is very dear to the person. It seems like when the beherit was human he hated everyone and was essentially an outcast.

The beherit apostle is a very special case. A unique apostle in every way. He sacrificed everything he had and wished for a better world. So he was made into the vessel that would eventually bring a new world about. He literally became a beherit (and like a beherit, he "granted wishes" and gave power to certain people), an egg that would play a key role in Femto's incarnation, hatching him into the corporeal world. He sacrificed himself in the process, and as Walter pointed out he bore the Brand on his own body. But "the world" was Branded as well, and sacrificed and wiped out in its entirety so that a "better one" could take its place. An appropriate sacrifice for a once-in-a-millennium event.



We know from his tour in the episode that there are other humans that Griffith has recruited, and to me it seems a little silly that nobody would think it's strange that there are these armored supposed humans running around on all fours, or the hulking ones 7 feet taller than the average person that's part of the group. So the only conclusion I came to is that Griffith's charisma and charm is so strong that he makes people dismiss the notion of how unreal things are or seem to be.

Keep in mind that in the same scene we see Griffith summoning the souls of the recently departed so that they can say goodbye to their families. The key here is that it's no mystery that unusual things are going on, but it just doesn't deter people. Besides, the apostles kept a low profile until the final battle against Ganishka.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 10:40:21 PM »
The beherit apostle is a very special case. A unique apostle in every way. He sacrificed everything he had and wished for a better world. So he was made into the vessel that would eventually bring a new world about. He literally became a beherit (and like a beherit, he "granted wishes" and gave power to certain people), an egg that would play a key role in Femto's incarnation, hatching him into the corporeal world. He sacrificed himself in the process, and as Walter pointed out he bore the Brand on his own body. But "the world" was Branded as well, and sacrificed and wiped out in its entirety so that a "better one" could take its place. An appropriate sacrifice for a once-in-a-millennium event.


you made me think a of question Aaz. Since the Beherit apostle sacrificed the world too, does that mean that everybody who dies now will get engulfed in the vortex or its more of a metaphorical world sacrifice? I don't know if you get my question (not sure I worded it right)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 10:02:38 AM »
Since the Beherit apostle sacrificed the world too, does that mean that everybody who dies now will get engulfed in the vortex or its more of a metaphorical world sacrifice? I don't know if you get my question (not sure I worded it right)

Keep in mind that "the world" in the Beherit apostle's view is limited to the Tower of Albion and its surroundings.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 04:12:02 PM »
Keep in mind that "the world" in the Beherit apostle's view is limited to the Tower of Albion and its surroundings.

So it could apply to the people in the area of the huge brand then... (they mostly all die anyway in the mirrored eclipse right? except the ones that got out of the area)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 08:26:26 PM »
So it could apply to the people in the area of the huge brand then... (they mostly all die anyway in the mirrored eclipse right? except the ones that got out of the area)

The overwhelming majority of people present are killed during the mirrored occultation ceremony, yes.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 09:17:09 PM »
ok cool! thank you for the clarification!

Offline SeedofKings

Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 12:54:38 AM »
Good questions Tama Chan, I've wondered these exact same things for a long time, especially the ones dealing with the Beherit Apostle and The King's health. I also agree with Walter, that Zodd was there to help Guts and Griffith yet again, but now I wonder if he is acting of his own free will or just performing his part within the wheel of causality so Griffith would be present for the Ceremony?
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Offline Skeleton

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 01:28:08 AM »
now I wonder if he is acting of his own free will

Yes.

Quote
or just performing his part within the wheel of causality so Griffith would be present for the Ceremony?

Yes.


Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 02:17:26 AM »
now I wonder if he is acting of his own free will or just performing his part within the wheel of causality so Griffith would be present for the Ceremony?
Of course it's of his own free will. Why wouldn't it be? You should review Zodd's big scene in volume 17 with the Falcon of Light for more information on his motivations.
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Offline Tama

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 02:10:35 AM »
Thanks for all the answers again. I finished my re-reading and have the last of my questions:

1. In volume 32 - episode "Wind coil", Griffith tells Ganishka to withdraw and make the royal capital their final battle ground. Why didn't he just kill him at that time? We know what happens later on with the behemoth size form of Ganishka and how it transforms the world, but Griffith didn't have any knowledge of the outcome of this did he? Wouldn't he still have won over the people if he stopped the Kushan empire right there?

2. In volume 33 - episode "Dream of foresight", The children give an explanation of the dream to the adults at night. I guess I'm a little confused about the dream/prophecy in general; With the first one I just assumed that the soon to be incarnation of Griffith was how everyone had the same dream, and a sign of things to come. But this one is so detailed, saying exactly what they should do to save the kingdom, I figured I was wrong. Is it the idea of evil or just causality in general that are giving these prophecies?

3. In volume 36 - episode "Beastman" after the protection spell has been cast around the ship, Schierke makes a point about while astral creatures cannot pass the barrier, those of the physical realm can still get through. Because of the worlds merging into one now, wouldn't everything be considered physical though?

Thanks again

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 02:55:10 AM »
1. In volume 32 - episode "Wind coil"

"Wind coil"? Ugh.

Griffith tells Ganishka to withdraw and make the royal capital their final battle ground. Why didn't he just kill him at that time? We know what happens later on with the behemoth size form of Ganishka and how it transforms the world, but Griffith didn't have any knowledge of the outcome of this did he?

Didn't he?

Wouldn't he still have won over the people if he stopped the Kushan empire right there?

How can you even think for a second that his end goal was "winning the people over". "Griffith" is merely a mask for Femto, the Wings of Darkness. What happened was exactly what was supposed to happen.

2. In volume 33 - episode "Dream of foresight"

Man, those titles are pretty bad...

With the first one I just assumed that the soon to be incarnation of Griffith was how everyone had the same dream, and a sign of things to come.

The incarnation of Femto. And everybody had a dream about the Falcon of Light, but it wasn't the exact same dream for everyone, as we saw in volume 17.

But this one is so detailed, saying exactly what they should do to save the kingdom, I figured I was wrong. Is it the idea of evil or just causality in general that are giving these prophecies?

Well it certainly isn't "causality" itself, which is simply a principle of the world, like gravity. It doesn't have a mind of its own. But as to where those dreams originate exactly, we don't know. Does it matter? Maybe it's the Idea of Evil, sure. Or maybe it's Femto/Griffith himself. Or maybe his pal Ubik, lending a hand when needed. Or maybe all members of the God Hand had to work together to make it happen. Lots of possibilities. Maybe we'll know for sure someday, maybe not.

3. In volume 36 - episode "Beastman" after the protection spell has been cast around the ship, Schierke makes a point about while astral creatures cannot pass the barrier, those of the physical realm can still get through. Because of the worlds merging into one now, wouldn't everything be considered physical though?

That could have been the case, but seeing what happened it clearly is not. While the two worlds now directly coexist at all times and in all places, beings from each world have apparently retained their distinct nature/properties. At least so far. Maybe that'll change in the future. But then again, maybe not.

Hope that helped! :void:

Offline Tama

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 03:03:29 AM »
I'm just going off of the Dark Horse titles; I guess they are a little weird.

Thanks

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 12:27:08 PM »
Yeah, not your fault, they're just not very good. If you're curious, check our own translations of those titles here.

Offline Irvine

Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 03:48:22 PM »
The overwhelming majority of people present are killed during the mirrored occultation ceremony, yes.

But I didn't see any brands of sacrifice on them.

Another thing is that the sacrifice must be someone or something dear to the summoner (Berserk wikia). The egg apostle stated that he hates this world (at least in the german translation). That confuses me.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 05:57:24 PM »
But I didn't see any brands of sacrifice on them.

Uh, I'm not sure you've followed the conversation properly. Jackson Hurley was asking me if the people present at the time died. And as anyone can see in volume 21, they sure did.

Anyway, they weren't individually branded, but the whole place was. See the picture I posted above.

Another thing is that the sacrifice must be someone or something dear to the summoner (Berserk wikia). The egg apostle stated that he hates this world (at least in the german translation). That confuses me.

We don't need a Wiki to know what a sacrifice must be or not, just to read what the God Hand says about it in volume 3. And you need to look at the situation a little more broadly. In particular when he recounts his encounter with the God Hand, what he was shown and told. Like Walter said above, he cared enough about the world to want to change it, and his sacrifice is also hinged on that. That world wasn't much, and like he said it was ugly, but it was also all he had.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about elves, Zodd, the King, the Brand
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 06:09:03 PM »
Jackson Hurley was asking me if the people present at the time died. And as anyone can see in volume 21, they sure did.


Actually I was wondering, also, if the people that died near the big burning brand, ended up in the vortex. (a bit pointless as a question but I had nothing else to do) Anyway you pretty much answer my question..  :guts: