Author Topic: USA and the good job blessed by God who loves his brave courageous soilders...  (Read 17112 times)

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Offline Makkuro

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You mean Hamid Karzai? 'Cause Usama is Saudi, you know.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 01:02:59 PM by Makkuro »

Offline *Gyom*

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note : I'm really sad that this is the most popular thread that I created  :'( :-\

Gechmir

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Lliugusamui: Be proud  ;D Big threads are good to have. Potholes to waste time in with scrolling down, reading flame-wars ^_^

I have my own opinion and side and am strongly sided with it. But I'm gonna say one thing. I know this post was a while back though...:

Shinhell9: There are Al Qaida fighting alongside Pro-Hussein Iraqis, I'm afraid to say. We've killed a lot of them. No accurate count though. Anyhow, we're going after them for strong ties to the Al Qaida. Plus, Saddam's been a pain... People living over there say he's as bad as Stalin. Once he's gone, expect to hear a lot of sad stories  :-\ At least, that's my prediction...

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the US is stupid. Er... I took a poll and sadly enough, it is ridiculously true  :D Erm... Many American's can't even find Florida on a US map, whilst 95% of Sweden **can**. Methinks we got spoiled and are letting the young'uns get a little dense. I know, because I'm amid them  :o I'm a high school senior in a private school. I know people from public and private schools, and am convinced that most of the smart people came to this private school. But still, not many of them impress me  >:(

Let me see if I can find the quiz...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/index.html

Ah! Here we are... There's an article at this address and a link lies somewhere on its right side in a gray box that leads to the quiz with actual results. Take a look at it please, if you want a good laugh. I'm very VERY American, but I can say out in the open that we have a ton of idiots :-\
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 05:00:35 PM by Gechmir »

Offline Makkuro

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There are Al Qaida fighting alongside Pro-Hussein Iraqis, I'm afraid to say. We've killed a lot of them. No accurate count though. Anyhow, we're going after them for strong ties to the Al Qaida. Plus, Saddam's been a pain... People living over there say he's as bad as Stalin. Once he's gone, expect to hear a lot of sad stories  :-\ At least, that's my prediction...

What's your source on the Al Qaida thing? If it's one of the big American networks, it isn't even remotely reliable. They're about the only ones who rival the Iraqi government in false information. There hasn't been a word about it here in Sweden, and most of our media is pro USA.

As for Saddam, sure, he's no kitten, but remember he was supported by the US until '91. The massacre of thousands of Kurds with (US-provided) chemical weapons was conveniently overlooked then. Whatever he's done to his people, it doesn't even come close to the genocide caused by the bombings (from the first Gulf War up to now) and the trade sanctions. The Iraqi dead number in the millions.

And the US are still supporting dictators and murderers across the world, two examples being Pakistan's Musharraf (dictator) and Israel's Sharon (war criminal). Anybody who thinks this is a humanitarian operation had better open their eyes and screw their heads on straight.

Many American's can't even find Florida on a US map, whilst 95% of Sweden **can**.

Well, go Sweden!  :)

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this war recieves so much attn.

Offline Bok Choy

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Shinhell9: There are Al Qaida fighting alongside Pro-Hussein Iraqis, I'm afraid to say. We've killed a lot of them. No accurate count though. Anyhow, we're going after them for strong ties to the Al Qaida. Plus, Saddam's been a pain... People living over there say he's as bad as Stalin. Once he's gone, expect to hear a lot of sad stories   At least, that's my prediction...

Don't necessarily believe everything you see on T.V. especially from the American news networks which have lost almost all sense of objectivity as they cheerlead the war.  Remember the Gulf of Tonkin Incident during the Vietnam war?  Remember the Iran-Contra affair during the 1980's?  How about Pamana, Nicaragua, Haiti?  The U.S. government has had a pretty long record of deception and purposely misconstruing world events in order to justify military intervention in other nations.

I can't believe there's actually people who believe there is a link between Al Qaida and Iraq; it's almost amusing really.  Here's some articles which objectively looks at the almost non-existent links between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein:
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20030320.html
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20030404.html

I wish the war was really about combatting "terrorism" or simply an oil grab.  Unfortunately, it ain't about either of those two reasons... check out this wonderful organization called the "Project for a New American Century":

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Read their mission statement, read the publication on "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century," (September 2000).  Take a look at their membership list.  This organization don't even attempt to cover up the fact that they're imperialistic as they throw around terms like "Pax Americana" without any hesitation.  Let's take at look at some of their more "choice" statements: “preserve an international security environment conducive to American interests and ideals”, “maintain nuclear strategic superiority”.

Hmmmm... let's take also take a look at the member of PNAC here: Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld... geez, seems a lot of high-ranking Bush administration officials in this lovely club.  Also note that the 1992 Wolfowitz doctrine which advocated "pre-emption" against states opposed to America's interests is eerily similar to the 2002 Bush Doctrine.  Gee, I wonder who's really in charge here?

NOW, please, tell me with a straight face after reading this and noting who the members of PNAC are, that the war on Iraq REALLY is about terrorism.  Don't get me wrong here... I'm not anti-American.  I admire America's institutions and the separation of power at the federal level.  However, it's really unfortunate to see normally rational people in the U.S. lose all sense of objectivity and logic as they blindly accept their government's constantly shifting rationale for going to war.
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of throughly useless information."
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Offline Bok Choy

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Damn... I'm sounding like a hypocrite here with one of my previous posts saying that I didn't want to talk about politics anymore.

Ah well (shrugs).
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of throughly useless information."
-Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes

Gechmir

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Bok Choy: Heh! Doma-kun! Heh. I love the dying kittens expression  ;D

But the media isn't always the best source, true. They jump the gun a LOT. But how do you know the links you're reading aren't fabricated as well? =\ I'm gonna keep my viewpoint right now... Its proven that in politics, it is virtually impossible to switch someone's viewpoint from one spot to another. I kinda tried throwing out my little tid-bit of knowledge earlier and this kinda makes me a hypocrite as well, but no biggie. But the war, in the end, is about some guy over there, who kills his own people much like Stalin, that owns deadly weapons. I'm sure some people would lose sleep with that thought in mind. In the end, this is simply protection. We don't want him strikin' first. That's the nitty-gritty from what I think the war is about. This "saving Iraqis" thing is nice, but in the end its self defense, I think.

Makkuro: Once again, not gonna bash yer' viewpoint. Yeah, you Swedes are smart :P Erm... Don't you guys get free college educations, that kind of comes along with your tax-system?

Offline PaulC

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http://thereitis.org/bushWar.php
Sums up my position fairly well. I find the claims that this war was entered for humanitarian reasons or out of self-defense unlikely. It seems fairly evident that we've wanted Iraq's oil and another foothold in the middle east for years, and terrorism gave the republicans something to justify the war with.
But I am just a microbe, after all, and thusly could be mistaken.

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the best source of shit is the stuff that comes out of my ass.

Offline Bok Choy

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Bok Choy: Heh! Doma-kun! Heh. I love the dying kittens expression  

But the media isn't always the best source, true. They jump the gun a LOT. But how do you know the links you're reading aren't fabricated as well? =\ I'm gonna keep my viewpoint right now... Its proven that in politics, it is virtually impossible to switch someone's viewpoint from one spot to another.

LOL... I'm glad someone recognizes Domokun... that lovable piece of growling brown sh*t!

The source which I have referred to, "Spinsanity", links their sources for your own viewing.  You can determine to your own satisfaction whether or not these sources are reliable, but for the most part, they link to reputable news sources such as The Guardian, ABC News, White House Press Briefings, Washington Post, etc.  It's not like they are pulling these things out of their asses.

Anyways, I appreciate your polite, measured response to my post.  Quite often, discussion of the Iraq war turns into a screaming match between the two sides.  

To address your point about self-defense, please check my previous posts on this topic.  The libertarian web sites have very strong arguments against this notion of "self-defense".

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the best source of shit is the stuff that comes out of my ass.

Nawww... the best source of shit has always come from T.V... never-ending supply of the stuff.
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of throughly useless information."
-Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes

Gechmir

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Heh. Domo-kun is crap?! O_O I thought he was a lil' brown creature and not the droppings of one ;D

Yeah. I've seen "flame wars" all too often. I learned from those mistakes. Just gets both sides mad. I'd rather try to see your viewpoints and stuff from a more rational method.

The self defense thing kinda fell into place quite well, I'd think... Chemical weapons, cruel man who calls us "infidels" ((Someone who calls us infidels can't be neutral, y'know!)), uses people for human shields, promotes suicidal attacks... I realize that Foxnews ain't the best source of news. Its nice that they side with the President's viewpoints. I rather like our President. People think that merely by his grammar and accent that he is dense. A lot of people down here in Texas have that sort of accent and stuff, but people who've visited with him say he acts like a next door neighbor rather than someone who leads the country. I like a President like that. Not a snake-in-the-grass lawyer, like the Clintons ::) Pardon me if I'm stepping on anyone's toes... But I'm rambling about what I mentioned earlier. I'd erase this but I put time into typing it and may as well let my thoughts stand.

And sure, I'll breeze through those sites. But bear in mind that I'm no active reader. More than five minutes of reading makes my mind wander... :-\

Impolite posters? Feh. I can hardly imagine... Ur 0pinyun sux! Mine r00lz! *L* Y'mean like that? :)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 03:53:42 AM by Gechmir »

Offline Makkuro

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The self defense thing kinda fell into place quite well, I'd think... Chemical weapons, cruel man who calls us "infidels" ((Someone who calls us infidels can't be neutral, y'know!)), uses people for human shields, promotes suicidal attacks...

Actually, I very much doubt he's said anything like that. The Baath Party has always been secular, and has consistently fought Islamism in Iraq. Saddam himself is probably more or less an atheist, and his closest man, Tariq Aziz, is a Christian. That he's been speaking of Allah and whatnot lately has more to do with gaining the sympathy of other Arab nations than religious belief.

But, of course, he's not neutral. In the seventies and eighties, he was USA's ally, and now he's their enemy. Cruel, certainly. Like many other dictators across the globe. It's no wonder he would use any means possible to defend himself against a superior force - he doesn't want to lose his power, after all. But that he has chemical weapons is just pure speculation/deception on America's part. If he did, why hasn't he used them yet?

As for the human shields, they're quite volontary. There are a few Swedes in Iraq right now, acting as human shields at important civilian resources. They do not by any means support Saddam. Who they do support, is the Iraqi people, who are the ones that suffer when power plants and water purification facilities are destroyed.

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True. It is strange that none were used yet. They claim we found some antidote agents and such near the Tigris River. Even had footage on the news. Plus, they made mention of some artillery round loaded with chemical agents that they didn't have a chance to fire off.

About 100 US casualties ((If the count is accurate)) in comparison to multi-thousand Iraqi casualties is an acceptible ratio for a winning side. To use most biochemical warfare though, you either need an artillery round of some sort, or you need to get close enough to use a grenade or such. The Iraqis are seeming to lose coherent control over tactics and such. There is footage I've seen of Iraqis running after US returns fire in response to an attack of theirs. If they remained better put together and were lead by better tactics, we might have found out for sure about the biological warfare.

But several sources, both mainstream and off-to-the-side news sources claim they used SCUD missiles, something banned due to their range of 400+ miles. If they have this sort of weaponry and if this report is true, then it wouldn't surprise me if they had some of this biological stuff. People around Iraq, both civilian and republican guard report that there are biological agents hidden in schoolyards and such. Plus, there has been multiple video releases of Iraqis testing the chemicals on animals. I saw a video of some chemical gas being used on a dog. Very gruesome :'( Poor beagle... But the men where in gasmasks, so their faces were hidden, and they were in suits. It was out in the open, looking like described Iraq terrain. Plus, the people were speaking what I suppose is the language that Iraqis speak. It is loose speculation, but I view it as valid stuff...

As for his religious standpoint, I suppose atheism might be his way of life. The people in the area are still very much leading a barbarian life. I'm not trying to be cruel to middle-easterners, but in this region, they are still leading lives much like that from what I can tell. I know some people who were from the area, as reference.

The British generals over there state that the tactics were practicing will be studied for years as textbook examples of solutions to urban and field warfares. I think if we're utilizing those sorts of praiseworthy tactics and we're doing as well as people say, then I can say that Iraqis haven't had a chance to use biological weapons. They most likely have some. To the extent that the press made it out to be? Unsure. But I can confidently say that they have some... There are way too many things pointing toward this.

Offline Makkuro

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Iraq never had chemical weapons. It's a known fact they used them in the (US supported) war against Iran. The issue is wether they have them now. The weapons inspectors found nothing, the US army have so far found nothing, and nothing has been used in the war. And if it walks like a duck...

A casualty rate of about a hundred to several thousand is absolutely preposterous. Had it been any other two countries, it would have justly been deemed a genocide. Imagine it being, say, Libya invading Israel.

As for the Iraqis being, as you put it, "barbaric," that has nothing to do with anything. No matter how superior you think your culture is, it doesn't give you the right to attack others.

Offline Majin Tenshi

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No matter how superior you think your culture is,
It isn't


Bar barba bar bar ba barba bar bar.
Ok, so I leave and come back....

Gechmir

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A casualty rate of about a hundred to several thousand is absolutely preposterous.

Yeah, the count on killed Iraqis is very random. I know its over a thousand. That's about it :P LOL

Never truly said we were much better. My wording did lean that way now that I look back at it though :-\ Lemme try to rephrase that... There are a lot of people just trying to get by, but these people are still led by fighting "Holy Wars" or Jihads and such, like Europe did with the Crusades in the middle ages. Just trying to make a cultural comparison...

Beh. I'm deviating from what I'm trying to say, sorry. Thing is, a bunch of belligerent people are leading them. Saddam Hussein doesn't strike me as a pacifist, exactly. There always are suicide bombers and such who believe that their doing suicide strikes sends them to heaven. Led by religion? Probably. But its like with the Japanese in WWII. They got the least intelligent people around to do kamikazes. The smarter folk paused and said to themselves "Wait a minute..." The others simply jumped up and said "I will die for my country with honor," since that was how they were raised. Like whipped dogs, as a few teachers of mine put. A minority did step away from that though. But that's all in the past.

I think this'll be my last post on this thread :) I'm trying to get a debate stirring but keep shoving myself into a corner with my wording... Oi vey.

Offline Makkuro

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Yeah, the count on killed Iraqis is very random. I know its over a thousand. That's about it :P LOL

It's not that I think you're wrong. You were spot on, the Iraqi casualty count is several thousand. My point was that this isn't a war - it's a slaughter.

Offline Bok Choy

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The self defense thing kinda fell into place quite well, I'd think... Chemical weapons, cruel man who calls us "infidels" ((Someone who calls us infidels can't be neutral, y'know!)), uses people for human shields, promotes suicidal attacks...

The point isn't whether or not he has chemical weapons.  That's irrelevant... almost all industrialized nations have these weapons including the United States and Canada whether they admit to it publicly or not.

The point is has he directly attacked the United States and is he providing WOMD to terrorist groups who wish to attack the United States?  Is he likely to attack the U.S.?  Many people would automatically assume "Yes", however, history of Saddam's past actions suggests otherwise.

During the Gulf War, he did not utilize any chemical warheads against the U.S. or its allies.  Even the retaliatory missile strikes against Israel were just "duds"; kinda of a warning against overthrowing him.  The only terrorist groups Saddam Hussein has provided financial aid to are those fighting against Israel; not the U.S.

On the likelihood of utilizing nuclear or biological weapons on the United States would invoke a massive retaliatory strike which would inevitably destroy Hussein's regime. Providing WOMD to Al Qaida would not be in Hussein’s interests since any terrorist attacks involving these weapons would raise immediate suspicions on Iraqi culpability.  In addition, it is well-documented that Osama Bin Laden is quite contemptuous of Saddam's secular government.  If Saddam provided these weapons to Al Qaida, it would raise the frightening possibility of WOMD being utilized against his own government in the near future.

Most people in the Arab world refer to the "United States" as an "infidel" or "The Great Satan".  Many Arab goverment officials have said these things in the past (although not publicly in ENGLISH to the United States).  It's just a populist sentiment taken advantage of by many Arab leaders (including Hussein). Besides the point, are we going to invade the Entire Middle East just because they are "hostile" or "not neutral" towards us?  The same thing can be said of Libya, China, Cuba, and the majority of Arab nations.

Saddam Hussein using human shields and suicide bombers is a logical response against an overwhelming superior military opponent.  What the hell do you expect him to do?  Wage a "fair" battle?  Yeah right... war ain't honourable; it's about defeating your opponent.  Vietnam used similar tactics in the Vietnamese war and I don't think nobody begrudged them for that...

The U.S. media paints Saddam Hussein as a "monster" comparable to Hitler which is a ridiculous assertion.  He is just like any other two-bit dictators in the world; concerned with his physical and political survival.  His past brutalities such as the "gassing of the Kurds" in 1988 was a response to their uprising and cries for independence.  Tell me what dictator would not do the same thing.  His invasion of Kuwait was not "unprovoked" or an "aggressive action by a military madman".  Kuwait has been regarded as a historical province of Iraq for some time now; after some miscommunication between the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Saddam thought he had the green light to invade.

As for those "Scuds" fired at Kuwait and U.S. marines uncovering "evidence" of chemical weapons... many newspapers have recanted those stories.  The Scuds weren't really Scuds but conventional missiles... and the uncovering of chemical weapons were simply small quantites of chemicals that have outlived their shelf life.  In fact, many newspapers have been quick to jump the gun so to speak when reporting these stories.  Thus, all these "corrections" now being made.  
One note: the existence of chemical suits, antidotes, raw materials for explosives, and documents on chemical weapons are NOT EVIDENCE that Iraq has weapons of Mass Destruction.  Most chemical labs in the world have these things on hand for Christ's sake.

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I realize that Foxnews ain't the best source of news. Its nice that they side with the President's viewpoints. I rather like our President.

It's not the president I'm worried about... it's the guys at this place: http://www.newamericancentury.org

I know I'm wasting my time (kinda reminds of me of the cartoon which says even if you win an argument on the internet, you still are a retard)... but it does frustrate me when so many lies and half-truths are passed off as "objective news" without any scrutiny.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 08:58:07 PM by Bok Choy »
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of throughly useless information."
-Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes

Offline Aazealh

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That one ? ;D

« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 10:06:51 PM by Aazealh »

Offline Bok Choy

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Sigh, I should have seen that coming a mile away. I deserved that...  :P
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of throughly useless information."
-Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes

Gechmir

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Good lord... I said I wouldn't post on this thread again but... *LOL*

I realize your belief in this matter is Liberaterian. I respect your thoughts, since you are a very VERY well informed person it seems. But that website **is** strange. Seems like Imperialism to me. **That** I don't support, period.

Offline Makkuro

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I realize your belief in this matter is Liberaterian.

Actually, they're not specifically libertarian. For example, I'm a socialist, and I pretty much agree with everything in that post. And we usually hate all things libertarian. It's really just basic anti-imperialism.

Gechmir

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Erm... I was talking to Bok Choy. He stated being Liberatarian in an earlier post :)

Offline Makkuro

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Erm... I was talking to Bok Choy. He stated being Liberatarian in an earlier post :)

That was my point. He's (supposedly) a libertarian, I'm a socialist, and yet we agree.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2003, 06:53:19 PM by Makkuro »