Author Topic: IoE: Will it ever actually be a person we see...or is it more of a morales thing  (Read 6823 times)

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Offline Salibu

Do you guys think by the end of Berserk. We will actually see this IoE or is it more just a concept of the battle of good/evil.

In short, is the IoE an actual person/deity?
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Aazealh

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Do you guys think by the end of Berserk. We will actually see this IoE or is it more just a concept of the battle of good/evil.

In short, is the IoE an actual person/deity?

We have seen it already, in volume 13 (it looks like a giant, monstrous heart). It's not a person but an entity that transcends individuality and is related to mankind itself.

Offline Apostle Judeau

What would be really interesting is if the Moonlight Boy was in fact the IoE made flesh through Femto's rape of Casca and that it was actually his rebirth, not Griffith's that was the true plan of the God Hand all along. As its clear the Moonlight Boy has a lot of power, yet for the moment still has a childs innocence.

(Please note I am a little behind and relying on the DH translations so if the Moonlight Boy has already been expanded upon, just ignore me)

Offline Aazealh

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What would be really interesting is if the Moonlight Boy was in fact the IoE made flesh through Femto's rape of Casca and that it was actually his rebirth, not Griffith's that was the true plan of the God Hand all along.

I think that would be more ridiculous than interesting. The Idea of Evil isn't a being that could be brought into the world as simply as that. Nor, from what we know of it, would it make sense for it to take on the form of a single human being given what it is, does and represents. Futhermore, the Moonlight Boy is pretty clearly Guts & Casca's son who underwent a metamorphosis when Femto was incarnated. His body was taken over and transformed into that of Griffith and is now being used as a vessel by Femto, but during full moons he can manifest himself to his parents under that new form (as opposed to the deformed one he previously bore). For reference, the unborn boy had originally been tainted by Femto when he raped Casca during her early pregnancy.

Lastly, Femto's incarnation was never the "true plan" of the God Hand. It was merely a step in that plan, albeit a crucial one.

Offline Apostle Judeau

Quote from: Aazealh
For reference, the unborn boy had originally been tainted by Femto when he raped Casca during her early pregnancy.

It was this part that initially got me thinking. As when Guts and Griffith meet for the first time after his reincarnation his dialogue doesn't really acknowledge the earlier encounters as Femto. I personally think who we see now as Griffith is Femto with a human face, as you say so I did find it odd he acted so aloof.

Offline Walter

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It was this part that initially got me thinking. As when Guts and Griffith meet for the first time after his reincarnation
Griffith wasn't reincarnated. The God Hand Femto was incarnated into flesh.

Quote
I personally think who we see now as Griffith is Femto with a human face
That's not a personal opinion, it is fact.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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I personally think who we see now as Griffith is Femto with a human face, as you say so I did find it odd he acted so aloof.

There's no doubt about the fact it is Femto wearing a flesh suit, and I think he did acknowledge their meeting: he went to see Guts to know whether having been incarnated would change something to the fact he didn't care about him. Also, Femto himself was always rather cold and distant, so that behavior was consistent.

Offline Apostle Judeau

Quote from: Walter
Griffith wasn't reincarnated. The God Hand Femto was incarnated into flesh.

You could speculate when in context with his current interactions with Charlotte that there is still some Griffith in there. Just how much given how broken his mind was by the Eclipse is the question, and if that will come to the surface should he be confronted by a restored Casca.

Quote from: Walter
That's not a personal opinion, it is fact.

 :ubik: Always good to be part of the consensus.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 11:44:51 AM by Apostle Judeau »

Offline Walter

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You could speculate when in context with his current interactions with Charlotte that there is still some Griffith in there.
I think you're just kidding yourself, honestly—particularly so for the example given.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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You could speculate when in context with his current interactions with Charlotte that there is still some Griffith in there.

That's beside the point. This is about the actual process, and the fact is that Griffith was not reincarnated. During the Occultation ceremony, Griffith was reborn as a new being, one called Femto. Then, later on, Femto, who was an astral being, acquired a body of flesh, hence why we say he was "incarnated" (embodied in flesh). You could say those are points of detail, but when it comes down to it there's only one correct denomination.

Just how much given how broken his mind was by the Eclipse is the question, and if that will come to the surface should he be confronted by a restored Casca.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

Offline Salibu

We have seen it already, in volume 13 (it looks like a giant, monstrous heart). It's not a person but an entity that transcends individuality and is related to mankind itself.

So is it your belief thats the extent of his appearance or do you believe there is something more.

I meant will we see him in some sort of being form.
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Aazealh

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So is it your belief thats the extent of his appearance or do you believe there is something more.

I meant will we see him in some sort of being form.

It's hard to say whether that's the definitive look it's meant to have, especially since Miura reused the design for the Sea God. That, to me, implies that we're not going to see a detailed shot of the Idea of Evil in the future similar to the one we got in episode 83. From then on there are two possibilities: either we won't see more of it at all, or we'll see it differently.

I'm quite certain however that we'll never see the Idea of Evil as a person against whom Guts could fight for example. It just wouldn't make sense.

Offline Apostle Judeau

Quote from: Aazealh
I'm quite certain however that we'll never see the Idea of Evil as a person against whom Guts could fight for example. It just wouldn't make sense.

I see what you're but by the same token the other members of the God Hand are humanoid (and now corporeal) but I couldn't see Guts challenging Void perhaps, to a physical fight even if they were equal size.

Offline Aazealh

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I see what you're but by the same token the other members of the God Hand are humanoid (and now corporeal)

They were human to begin with, and also I wouldn't say they having corporeal forms just quite yet. That they have come into the world is one thing, but how it'll all work remains to be seen.

I couldn't see Guts challenging Void perhaps, to a physical fight even if they were equal size.

Even so, it's still far more feasible and easier to imagine than Guts facing off against the Idea of Evil, which is pretty much guaranteed to never happen.

Offline Salibu

They were human to begin with, and also I wouldn't say they having corporeal forms just quite yet. That they have come into the world is one thing, but how it'll all work remains to be seen.

Even so, it's still far more feasible and easier to imagine than Guts facing off against the Idea of Evil, which is pretty much guaranteed to never happen.

But at some point the God Hand had to be started with a purpose. Is it the God Hands purpose, as in Voids desires. Is it strictly the desires of the IoE?
If it all stems from the IoE, was it ever a being?
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Aazealh

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But at some point the God Hand had to be started with a purpose. Is it the God Hands purpose, as in Voids desires. Is it strictly the desires of the IoE?

The Idea of Evil made it so people would be born whose desires and goals as well as a cruel fate led them to become members of the God Hand. They each pursue their own goals, but said goals just so happen to align with what we can only guess is some kind of masterplan from the Idea of Evil. Therefore it is both.

If it all stems from the IoE, was it ever a being?

I'm not sure I quite understand your use of the word "being" in this thread. Anyway, if we go by episode 83 then it is most certainly a conscious being/entity, yes. And even if we take it out, it remains pretty strongly implied, to the point where I don't think a reasonable doubt subsists.

Offline Salibu

The Idea of Evil made it so people would be born whose desires and goals as well as a cruel fate led them to become members of the God Hand. They each pursue their own goals, but said goals just so happen to align with what we can only guess is some kind of masterplan from the Idea of Evil. Therefore it is both.

I'm not sure I quite understand your use of the word "being" in this thread. Anyway, if we go by episode 83 then it is most certainly a conscious being/entity, yes. And even if we take it out, it remains pretty strongly implied, to the point where I don't think a reasonable doubt subsists.

So IoE created the first man by your account?

Or is there a IoG?
Idea of Good.?
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Aazealh

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So IoE created the first man by your account?

I think we have a serious comprehension problem here. No, the Idea of Evil did not create the first man. Rather, the Idea of Evil was born from the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, at least if we go by what it tells Griffith in episode 83. But I don't see what that has to do with what we were previously talking about.

Idea of Good.?

There has never been anything in the manga that could lead us to believe this is the case.

Offline Salibu

I think we have a serious comprehension problem here. No, the Idea of Evil did not create the first man. Rather, the Idea of Evil was born from the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, at least if we go by what it tells Griffith in episode 83. But I don't see what that has to do with what we were previously talking about.

There has never been anything in the manga that could lead us to believe this is the case.

No, no comprehension problem mate. More me wondering outloud how the berserk universe came to be. If it was created. If it just was ...etc..you know what I mean?

My only reason for mentioning an IoG is wherever there is evil there seems to be good.
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Aazealh

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More me wondering outloud how the berserk universe came to be. If it was created. If it just was ...etc..you know what I mean?

Ok, I see. Well, we don't know how Berserk's world came to be.

My only reason for mentioning an IoG is wherever there is evil there seems to be good.

There is most certainly some good somewhere in the "ocean of souls". It's never been mentioned though, and we don't know if it agglomerates like evil does in the Vortex of Souls, which would be the first requirement for an entity like the Idea of Evil to come to be.

Offline KazigluBey

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I'm definitely looking forward to the possibility of a reboot of IoE. The giant heart is interesting and the symbolism is plentiful but I feel he can wow us with something spectacular.

The concept of the IoE always reminded me of leviathan from Hellraiser 2 for some reason.

Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline Aazealh

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I'm definitely looking forward to the possibility of a reboot of IoE. The giant heart is interesting and the symbolism is plentiful but I feel he can wow us with something spectacular.

The heart design is still canon though, it's shown at the end of episode 82.

Offline KazigluBey

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The heart design is still canon though, it's shown at the end of episode 82.

Ahh my bad. I thought it was only in the section that was left out.
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline IronBerserk

I would hope that there is some sort of idea of good. Isn't that what the whole friendship plot is about? This idea of good (friendship) is what Guts is using to fight fate and the Idea of Evil. At least that's what I like to think. But yeah, the IoE is something I never quite understood how Miura was going to implement. I like to make theories and try to fill in the blanks, but this one simply just leaves me blank :P lol! Maybe that's why Miura left it out? Didn't he say in an interview that he would either use or not use it, that he technically wasn't sure yet?

Offline Aazealh

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I would hope that there is some sort of idea of good. Isn't that what the whole friendship plot is about? This idea of good (friendship) is what Guts is using to fight fate and the Idea of Evil.

No, that's not at all what it's about

Maybe that's why Miura left it out? Didn't he say in an interview that he would either use or not use it, that he technically wasn't sure yet?

When he removed episode from the story he said it was revealing too much about the world too early. When we wrote to him he answered that it wasn't sure the Idea of Evil would appear again in the story.