Author Topic: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?  (Read 9518 times)

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Offline Wyrm

Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2013, 02:46:21 PM »
It really is your loss.

Indeed it is. Is it worth it getting all hot and bothered about it? Probably a nice joint would also help!  :troll:
Talk to Aazealh and you guys can come together to Amsterdam: you can even crash at my house if you don't try to murder me on my sleep because i enjoy Berserk the wrong way!  :slan:

Offline Walter

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Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2013, 02:59:01 PM »
It's been really great talking at you.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Wyrm

Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2013, 04:39:23 PM »
EDIT: ah, screw it... i'll shut up since it's not my house.

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2013, 08:20:33 PM »
Since the Idea of Evil was born to explain human suffering, Evil is supposed to be everything that causes people to suffer. Every act of violence, every disaster, every experience of anguish and sadness in the human condition, Evil is meant to give meaning to an otherwise meaningless experience of torment. People desire reasons. That's clearly stated.

I think the Berserk verse follows Sartre's a posteriori model of self and meaning. By this I mean that humans experience phenomena and create meaning for it after the fact. People experience senseless death, rape, and betrayal (all those incidents that create the emotional state which activates a Beherit). They want to know why bad things happen. So they come up with concepts such as God, Evil, and Causality to explain their suffering and even justify causing others to suffer. We see this happen all the time such as how Mozgus recruits those deformed and outcast followers by convincing them that their deformities had a purpose, that they were destined to work for a higher power. Unfortunately, the universe of Berserk also has the added caveat of the Astral Plane and Ideal Worlds, where ideas take on a life of their own. So the Idea of Evil was born to explain suffering but it then becomes the cause of suffering because that was the purpose humanity gave it. Evil in this case would be the magical force stemming from this source.

But people do not just wish for an explanation, they also want an end to their suffering, they want a savior to rescue them.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 08:32:08 PM by Red Dingo »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2013, 02:51:03 PM »
Since the Idea of Evil was born to explain human suffering, Evil is supposed to be everything that causes people to suffer.

No, that's not what the word "evil" is used for in most instances in the series. I've already explained that in other posts. Also, the "Idea" in "Idea of Evil" refers to the Platonic concept, not to the word "idea" as it is commonly used in English. It is worth noting though that the meaning attributed to it by Miura (in an episode that has since been removed from the story), differs somewhat from said Platonic concept.

Every act of violence, every disaster, every experience of anguish and sadness in the human condition, Evil is meant to give meaning to an otherwise meaningless experience of torment. People desire reasons. That's clearly stated.

No, you're just substituting "evil" to "The Idea of Evil" in episode 83's dialogue here. That can't work.

They want to know why bad things happen. So they come up with concepts such as God, Evil, and Causality to explain their suffering and even justify causing others to suffer.

Causality is a principle, not a concept created by man. Again, you're extrapolating the explanations given for the Idea of Evil's creation.

Unfortunately, the universe of Berserk also has the added caveat of the Astral Plane and Ideal Worlds, where ideas take on a life of their own. So the Idea of Evil was born to explain suffering but it then becomes the cause of suffering because that was the purpose humanity gave it. Evil in this case would be the magical force stemming from this source.

I don't think we can say that ideas take a life of their own, and especially not in the astral world. The case of the Idea of Evil is very specific, and its creation is related in an episode that is at best not fully canon. Like I mentioned earlier, it bears the name of "Idea" in a reference to the Greek concept developed by Plato, but the meaning of its name in Japanese is that of the "source/origin of evil". Yet it was actually born from the region of the oceans of souls where "Evil" as a magical force is derived from. So it does not predate it, but is rather a consciousness that came to that "region" at some point. Which is essentially what it says in episode 83. As for why the Idea of Evil was born, it was to produces reasons for suffering and such, not merely to explain it.

But people do not just wish for an explanation, they also want an end to their suffering, they want a savior to rescue them.

That's not related to the process that led to the creation of the Idea of Evil. The whole situation of Midland (which is hardly the entirety of mankind) needing a savior was carefully engineered to fit an agenda.

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2013, 04:09:10 AM »
No, that's not what the word "evil" is used for in most instances in the series. I've already explained that in other posts. Also, the "Idea" in "Idea of Evil" refers to the Platonic concept, not to the word "idea" as it is commonly used in English. It is worth noting though that the meaning attributed to it by Miura (in an episode that has since been removed from the story), differs somewhat from said Platonic concept.

It differs significantly from the Platonic concept to the point that it may be called an inversion. According to the Platonic Theory of Forms, the physical world would just be an imitation of the Ideal World. Abstracts would exist independently of the human experience. But in the Berserk it is experience that shapes Ideal. The Idea of Evil was born from a collective human desire. That would not fly with Plato.

Thus we get a double meaning to the name. The Idea of Evil is the ultimate archetype of everything we consider to be evil. Apostles, God Hand, and everything they do is spun from this being. And evil in itself is a value given to inherently meaningless phenomena. In other words, evil is just a meme, an idea. If it weren't for the existence of different layers of reality in Berserk, that's all it would ever be just like in real life.

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No, you're just substituting "evil" to "The Idea of Evil" in episode 83's dialogue here. That can't work.

My assertion, my speculation, is that "Evil" as an energy is ultimately derived from the Idea and serves its purposes.

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Causality is a principle, not a concept created by man. Again, you're extrapolating the explanations given for the Idea of Evil's creation.

Causality is a principle but its recognition as principle is in itself, a concept. But perhaps the better term is Destiny.

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I don't think we can say that ideas take a life of their own, and especially not in the astral world. The case of the Idea of Evil is very specific, and its creation is related in an episode that is at best not fully canon. Like I mentioned earlier, it bears the name of "Idea" in a reference to the Greek concept developed by Plato, but the meaning of its name in Japanese is that of the "source/origin of evil". Yet it was actually born from the region of the oceans of souls where "Evil" as a magical force is derived from. So it does not predate it, but is rather a consciousness that came to that "region" at some point.Which is essentially what it says in episode 83.

I disagree with the bolded because the "region" was not specifically called evil. It was a place where malice, agony, and suffering of the ocean of souls coalesce but that is not evil, just terribly human. In other words, suffering predates the Idea and the Idea predates the magical force.

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As for why the Idea of Evil was born, it was to produces reasons for suffering and such, not merely to explain it.

Accepted, but the best way to produce reasons for suffering is to be the cause of it, and that's what sets evil energy apart from the other forces we've seen. It's specifically engineered to cause suffering. Again though, this is my speculation.

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That's not related to the process that led to the creation of the Idea of Evil. The whole situation of Midland (which is hardly the entirety of mankind) needing a savior was carefully engineered for fit an agenda.

I thought the agenda itself was humanity's.

Offline Antonius Block

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Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2013, 03:14:09 PM »
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extrapolating the explanations

That's the best damn alliteration I've heard in awhile.  :ganishka:

But seriously, I look forward to the further posts in this topic, this is gonna help get me through my double today.
I want to confess as best I can, but my heart is void. The void is a mirror. I see my face and feel loathing and horror. My indifference to men has shut me out. I live now in a world of ghosts, a prisoner in my dreams.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What is 'Evil' in the Berserk universe?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2013, 08:30:55 PM »
It differs significantly from the Platonic concept to the point that it may be called an inversion. According to the Platonic Theory of Forms, the physical world would just be an imitation of the Ideal World. Abstracts would exist independently of the human experience. But in the Berserk it is experience that shapes Ideal. The Idea of Evil was born from a collective human desire. That would not fly with Plato.

Actually it's not like that. If you remember how the astral and corporeal worlds function, the astral dominates the corporeal, which is how for example small wounds can be healed very rapidly in special places and/or during special occurrences as the corporeal readjusts itself to the astral. Similarly, when an apostle's astral self is imbued with evil, his or her corporeal body transforms to reflect it. In the case of the Idea of Evil's creation, the collective consciousness you refer to is not corporeal in nature, and the feelings that led to the Idea of Evil's birth are quite Ideal in nature.

Thus we get a double meaning to the name.

Not so, the meaning of its name is quite clear.

The Idea of Evil is the ultimate archetype of everything we consider to be evil. Apostles, God Hand, and everything they do is spun from this being. And evil in itself is a value given to inherently meaningless phenomena. In other words, evil is just a meme, an idea. If it weren't for the existence of different layers of reality in Berserk, that's all it would ever be just like in real life.

I don't think you could argue that the Idea of Evil is "the ultimate archetype of everything we consider to be evil". That's certainly not how it comes across when Griffith meets it, nor have I ever seen "the archetype of evil" described as such. As for what it would be like if Berserk's world wasn't different from ours, well, that's not really pertinent here now is it? Berserk's world is very different from ours.

My assertion, my speculation, is that "Evil" as an energy is ultimately derived from the Idea and serves its purposes.

But your assertion is wrong, for Evil preexisted the Idea of Evil. What the Idea of Evil is is a consciousness. That huge mass of dark feelings developed a consciousness, an ego. Thus was the Idea of Evil born. That's all explicitly stated in episode 83.

Causality is a principle but its recognition as principle is in itself, a concept. But perhaps the better term is Destiny.

Words have specific meanings. It's a principle of the Berserk world and what you previously said was inaccurate. Furthermore, "destiny" and "causality" really shouldn't be confused. Causality simply is the relation between causes and effects. No more, no less. It's a principle. It's not an obscure synonym for the inescapable fate you can find in Greek mythology, but a rule of the world. The reason it is of such importance for us is because the Idea of Evil uses this principle to manipulate events in the world. It sets off complicated chain reactions over long periods of time in order to achieve its goals. So we could say that the Idea of Evil controls (to some extent) fate by using causality.

I disagree with the bolded because the "region" was not specifically called evil. It was a place where malice, agony, and suffering of the ocean of souls coalesce but that is not evil, just terribly human. In other words, suffering predates the Idea and the Idea predates the magical force.

But actually it was specifically called evil... By Puck, in volume 3, during its first appearance. Enormous evil, as if all the world's evil was gathered there. That's how it's described by a being whose very nature allows him to precisely identify such things. Then Femto further specifies that it could be called Hell (which is also what the Idea of Evil called it).

Accepted, but the best way to produce reasons for suffering is to be the cause of it, and that's what sets evil energy apart from the other forces we've seen. It's specifically engineered to cause suffering. Again though, this is my speculation.

I'm just clarifying the wording by quoting pretty much the exact text out of the manga: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering. Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge. And I produce those, as it is what I've been brought into existence for."

I thought the agenda itself was humanity's.

It's the Idea of Evil's agenda, which we cannot say is mankind's agenda. You see, the Idea of Evil represents only a very specific portion of that vast ocean down there. It doesn't account for the whole picture. Not to mention that it was created under specific circumstances but may very well have formed its own plans since then.