Author Topic: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse  (Read 2324 times)

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Offline Hensmon

Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« on: August 04, 2015, 02:30:50 PM »
Hi, first post here.

So I have always been slightly confused about Griffith's state of mind in the points leading up to The Eclipse, particularly what causes him to trigger it.

From what I remember (I don't have the manga with me), Griffith tries to kill himself because he is clearly depressed that his dream is destoryed. This seems to be made worse when he see's Guts and Casca talking whilst he's bandaged in the wagon. Is it the apparent affection between them that sets him off, or is it that they talk about having to care for Griffith and it gives him a blow to his ego?? Casca seems to be particularly upset that Griffith heard them talk, but I don't understand what was so bad about it, or why Griffith would be so upset by this...

The second part of his mentallity is when he notices that the Beherit has returned to him, after his failed suicide attempt. Shortly after he see's Guts running towards him. Griffith is shouting "Stay Back!" and eventually "I'll never again forgive..." - In the anime he says "If he touches me..." or something along these lines. Either way, when Guts lays his hands on Griffith it is the final moment that starts the eclipse. So WHY is this? What is it about Guts that causes Griffith to reach a breaking point at this moment?



Offline Walter

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Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 02:58:24 PM »
Welcome! You should really check out the search function. There are many threads on this subject. I don't mind briefly describing the circumstances, but I think it's laid out pretty plainly in the manga.

Griffith wasn't a sane man at that point in the series. On top of that, he couldn't bear being pitied; to be reduced to a frail state where others had to care for him. As Griffith himself reflects, these were people who he once held in the palm of his hand, and now they're talking about who's going to have to take care of him. That happens simultaneous with his vision of his dream being just out of reach, which is what gets him on the wagon.

Quote
So WHY is this? What is it about Guts that causes Griffith to reach a breaking point at this moment?

When the episode was first serialized in Young Animal, it had Griffith's complete line: "If you touch me now, I'll never be able to forgive you again." It was shortened by an ellipsis for the volume.

When Guts finds him, Griffith reaches his lowest point as his friend bears him on his shoulder. He can't deal with THIS man, of all people, pitying him -- a cripple, who is too weak to even kill himself. His feelings of desperation then resonate with the Beherit and trigger the Eclipse.

If you'd like to hear more thoughts on this particular exchange, we cover it in our Volume 12 re-read podcast.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Hensmon

Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2015, 04:02:14 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply. I will be more thorough in the search next time.

Your descirption makes sense to me, I always had similar thoughts. I was unsure if the clear affection between Guts and Casca was also a factor...they make it seem so in the anime series. I also feel like the conversation between them both, about how Guts wants Casca to stay was when Griffith seems most upset, but it seemed harmless to me.


Offline Walter

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Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2015, 04:09:16 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply. I will be more thorough in the search next time.

Your descirption makes sense to me, I always had similar thoughts. I was unsure if the clear affection between Guts and Casca was also a factor...they make it seem so in the anime series. I also feel like the conversation between them both, about how Guts wants Casca to stay was when Griffith seems most upset, but it seemed harmless to me.

The fact that Guts and Casca have become close was disturbing to Griffith, presumably because he's selfish and feels that he should control everything.

We see him react darkly to this realization a few times after the Falcons rescue him, most notably (and in true  :femto: fashion) after Guts finishes his rampage through the guards in Volume 10 and Casca wipes the blood from him; but also in Volume 11 during the fight with Wyald. However, I don't think it's what set him over the edge. Rather, that's something that comes into play when he uses it against Guts during the rape at the Eclipse.
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Offline DarkAdin

Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2015, 04:23:23 PM »
Hi and welcome! :guts:

Well, I think I'm not wrong if I see Griffith as the most psychologically complex character in all the series so far (and this has already been debated I think). From the beginning he's always been a character that yelled for an analysis. I'm not sure if Griffith could be considered mentally sane (clinically speaking) if put into reality, but at that point it's clear that he wasn't. And for various reasons.

I would pretty much consider everything that you said as a reason for his breakdown. In short, I'd say everything he built step by step, including his band and friends, were lost instantaneously. Yes, he still had friends, but all the relationships changed completely. A life like that, compared to the one he was fighting for, was no life at all. And there was practically no chance at all to make his dream come true anymore. And to consider a dream that big, he indeed had to have a big ego. An ego that eventually got smashed by the king.

And as I said above, I always doubted about his sanity, because, although all he did had that something "divine", I found everything dark in the inside. Like it all was born from an obsession. And remember how Griffith took the fact of Guts abandoning the Hawks, and how he sneaked into the princess' room next. He lost control there like no one else would have. And that was the beginning of the end.

But yeah, I think everything more or less contributed to his breakdown. Even the smallest details. Like it all was plotted... :griffnotevil:
After failure, even the best plan seems stupid.

Offline Hensmon

Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2015, 03:30:00 PM »
I'm not sure if Griffith could be considered mentally sane (clinically speaking)

I disagree, I think he is sane, but has a goal drivin by such a huge ego that when things get in the way he has moments where he mentally breaksdown. More of a lapse rather than being a mentally unstable character. If anything, he is arguably the most clear thinking of them all.

Offline DarkAdin

Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 10:40:00 PM »
I disagree, I think he is sane, but has a goal drivin by such a huge ego that when things get in the way he has moments where he mentally breaksdown. More of a lapse rather than being a mentally unstable character. If anything, he is arguably the most clear thinking of them all.
Yeah, but don't you think that ego seems pathological? It was so big that it eventually became a burden.
After failure, even the best plan seems stupid.

Offline Hensmon

Re: Griffith's state of mind before Eclipse
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 08:21:53 PM »
Yeah, but don't you think that ego seems pathological? It was so big that it eventually became a burden.

Yeah actually I would say pathological is a very good word to describe it. It's interesting though as during his time in captive he reflects that he has kept (supposedly) his sanity all because of the his raw and overwhelming emotions he has of Guts. His hate, love and everything in between hold him there. He believes himself still sane because of this (and maybe he is), but people with the strongest insanity believe themselves to be clear thinking and maybe this is the case. Still though, he still remains true to his vision to the end and I guess this takes some form of clear and sane thinking. The guy is seriously complex!