Author Topic: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.  (Read 3927 times)

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Offline Hensmon

Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« on: March 18, 2016, 03:52:43 PM »
In Volume 3, chapter 5 we get to see the Godhand for the first time. Love the scenes and stories that follow but there are a few things I would like some clarity on.

1. The Godhand lied?

They begin to remind the count of the day he sacrificed his wife, turning him into demon-kind. Script as follows...

Count: "Whatever you are, save me from my suffering, If you do I will give you anything"
Godhand: "And we promised you that we would make you into a supernatural being who would never know sorrow or despair"

Yet here we are and the Count is quite clearly showing both sorrow and despair, not only in fearing to loose his own life but also towards his daughter - both in the dilemma of a second sacrifice and also in the rejection he faces from her. So his sacrifice initially was actually a farce, as what the Godhand promised did not come true. Did they just manipulate him in order to push him to sacrifice? He even seems to show despair when reminded of the situation...clearly no sorrow has been removed here.

2. You still have your humanity when turned into Demon-kind from the Behlit?

As said before, the count shows many human emotions as a demon. As a demon he chooses eternal suffering in Hell and NOT to sacrifice his daughter (demons can love?)... he couldn't even mange this when given the same choice in human form and this suffering he experienced was lot more manageable in comparison to Hell. So as a demon he shows more compassion and restraint than as a human... Strange and not very demon like behaviour.

3. What happens when you activate a Behlit when you are already a demon (like in the counts case)?

If the Count had sacrificed his daughter, what would have happened? Simply regenerate his health back to normal? Surely a sacrifice of this magnitude a second time qualifies for something more important than a quick revive? Would he have become a God-Hand member? Just interested about this really.

Any theories or insight into these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 03:57:31 PM »
Yet here we are and the Count is quite clearly showing both sorrow and despair,

Because his sacrifice was incomplete. He still had his daughter.

Quote
2. You still have your humanity when turned into Demon-kind from the Behlit?

As said before, the count shows many human emotions as a demon. As a demon he chooses eternal suffering in Hell and NOT to sacrifice his daughter (demons can love?)... he couldn't even mange this when given the same choice in human form and this suffering he experienced was lot more manageable in comparison to Hell. So as a demon he shows more compassion and restraint than as a human... Strange and not very demon like behaviour.

Because his sacrifice was incomplete.

Quote
3. What happens when you activate a Behlit when you are already a demon (like in the counts case)?

If the Count had sacrificed his daughter, what would have happened? Simply regenerate his health back to normal? Surely a sacrifice of this magnitude a second time qualifies for something more important than a quick revive? Would he have become a God-Hand member? Just interested about this really.

It's unprecedented, but the implication was that he would have been revitalized enough to defeat Guts.

:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Hensmon

Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2016, 04:01:11 PM »
Because his sacrifice was incomplete. He still had his daughter.

Because his sacrifice was incomplete.

It's unprecedented, but the implication was that he would have been revitalized enough to defeat Guts.

No, The promise is made to the Count when he is asked to sacrifice his wife. The Godhand offer him a supernatural and supposedly suffering free life is return for his wife - to this, he accepts. He even asks of them this directly to which they reply directly.

Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2016, 04:28:30 PM »
No, The promise is made to the Count when he is asked to sacrifice his wife. The Godhand offer him a supernatural and supposedly suffering free life is return for his wife - to this, he accepts. He even asks of them this directly to which they reply directly.

I don't know what else I can tell you, man. Take it to God Hand appeals court? The point is, sacrificing his wife was supposed to be enough to make him let go of his humanity -- but clearly it wasn't, because he still cared for his daughter. Killing her presumably would have completed the work that began during the first sacrifice.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2016, 04:31:56 PM »
No, The promise is made to the Count when he is asked to sacrifice his wife. The Godhand offer him a supernatural and supposedly suffering free life is return for his wife - to this, he accepts. He even asks of them this directly to which they reply directly.

Well in a way it worked because he seemed pretty free of his emotion before Guts came to his castle. But as Walter pointed out already, the sacrifice was not a 100% complete. It was sufficient the first time because he loved/hated his wife enough to sacrifice her. Were his daughter with him when it happened, he would would have probably sacrifice her in the first place. But she wasn't so I always saw it that his wife was enough at first.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2016, 04:42:42 PM »
I have to imagine that this could give some implication into Griffith / Femto's condition.  Is his sacrifice truly complete with Guts and Casca still walking around?  Is branding them enough? His commentary at the Hill of the Swords seems to imply that he is devoid of worldly attachments like Guts anymore.  If so, he kind of got his cake and ate it too.

Perhaps from the God Hand's perspective the sacrifice is complete and Guts is just a dead man walking.


Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2016, 04:45:36 PM »
I have to imagine that this could give some implication into Griffith / Femto's condition.  Is his sacrifice truly complete with Guts and Casca still walking around?  Is branding them enough?

The price of the brand isn't their deaths, but their souls being chained to the Vortex. So yes, it's complete. Besides that, why would the other God Hand or Femto tolerate their success in escaping certain death...?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Menosgade

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2016, 05:01:54 PM »
 I don't think they lied to him, however, there's a twist in their words (demon promises tend to be treacherous), he wouldn't feel sorrow and despair towards his wife. He only sacrificed her, and so his wish as towards her actions and his as a result of those. So, the despair he felt on that scene and sorrow for killing his own wife would never torment him again.

 And this, I believe, is the answer to your questions no. 1 and 2, he only lost "half his humanity" or so to speak. His daughter was the only other person he cared for, and she clearly could still burst him emotions even in his demon form, as a trace of his remaining humanity.

"So as a demon he shows more compassion and restraint than as a human"

Hmm, no? He is described as a fair ruler in his human form, and also religious if I recall correctly. Thus, seeing his loved wife amidst herectics, he could not keep his sanity. Two different questions mixed up pretty bad here, first the whole scene is completely unacceptable, second, his wife was taking active part on it - sharing the intimacy only he had with her.

 As for the third question, that's very theoretical. As his wish as to defeat Guts, probably a stronger body would be granted to fit that goal, but even that could just not be enough. How to completely guarantee that?

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2016, 05:14:07 PM »

As for the third question, that's very theoretical. As his wish as to defeat Guts, probably a stronger body would be granted to fit that goal, but even that could just not be enough. How to completely guarantee that?

I'm pretty sure he would have got his same body but unwounded. In that case Guts would have been fucked since he was already pretty much messed up from the fight. i don't think the Count would have become uber strong from sacrificing his daughter.

Offline MiyamotoPuck

Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2016, 06:41:32 PM »
The price of the brand isn't their deaths, but their souls being chained to the Vortex. So yes, it's complete. Besides that, why would the other God Hand or Femto tolerate their success in escaping certain death...?

Their souls would join the Vortex only if they die, no?  In that case, how could it be complete? Or are you saying their souls aren't in their body anymore? I'm not saying it's incomplete but I don't understand, it seems weird.
And for why they would tolerate their escaping, maybe it's because Griffith's transformation into Femto is over, so it doesn't matter anymore to them (to Femto at least) since the purpose of the ceremony is achieved.

Offline Walter

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2016, 06:50:15 PM »
Their souls would join the Vortex only if they die, no?  In that case, how could it be complete? Or are you saying their souls aren't in their body anymore? I'm not saying it's incomplete but I don't understand, it seems weird.

It's only weird in how you're choosing to interpret it. Their souls were doomed to the Vortex. Normally a human doesn't survive being branded because of the "feast" that happens. Guts and Casca are anomalies in that regard. But it doesn't change the fact that the deal has already been done. The arranged marriage stands, regardless.

Quote
And for why they would tolerate their escaping, maybe it's because Griffith's transformation into Femto is over, so it doesn't matter anymore to them (to Femto at least) since the purpose of the ceremony is achieved.

That's not what I was asking. Why they tolerated their escape is obvious. I was saying, if Griffith's sacrifice was "incomplete" then why would they tolerate the anomalies' continued existence, effectively hamstringing Femto's existence as a God Hand member?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2016, 06:51:41 PM »
Their souls would join the Vortex only if they die, no?  In that case, how could it be complete? Or are you saying their souls aren't in their body anymore? I'm not saying it's incomplete but I don't understand, it seems weird.
And for why they would tolerate their escaping, maybe it's because Griffith's transformation into Femto is over, so it doesn't matter anymore to them (to Femto at least) since the purpose of the ceremony is achieved.

You don't need the soul to go into the vortex for the sacrifice to be complete. The sacrifice itself is sufficient. In theory they would not have survived anyway if the Skullknight had not interfered. The sacrifice was still done though. Except when they'll die they will join the vortex. (unless further in the story there is a resolution for that little detail of afterlife)

Ps: Damn you Walter! You beat me twice for an answer today! by a few seconds!  :guts:

Offline MiyamotoPuck

Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 10:38:35 PM »
It's only weird in how you're choosing to interpret it. Their souls were doomed to the Vortex. Normally a human doesn't survive being branded because of the "feast" that happens. Guts and Casca are anomalies in that regard. But it doesn't change the fact that the deal has already been done. The arranged marriage stands, regardless.

You don't need the soul to go into the vortex for the sacrifice to be complete. The sacrifice itself is sufficient. In theory they would not have survived anyway if the Skullknight had not interfered. The sacrifice was still done though. Except when they'll die they will join the vortex. (unless further in the story there is a resolution for that little detail of afterlife)

So in other words, we can say that the feast is sort of "optional" and only consists of a tradition/rite, the fact that the souls of the sacrificed ones are doomed is sufficient, they can die now or later without any consequences.
I've never seen Griffith's sacrifice as incomplete since indeed they let Guts and Casca be, so I didn't really ask myself any questions about it before today.
Thanks to both of you for your answers.

Offline Demon Knight

Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2016, 03:31:37 PM »
Not sure if this is the right place to ask but anyways.

 I personally like the white hair on Guts, it makes his appearance kind of unique. But do you think Guts' white hair will be cured and will be back to its original color?

Offline Rupert Sinclair

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2016, 03:45:01 PM »
But do you think Guts' white hair will be cured and will be back to its original color?

What would be the point in that?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2016, 04:10:42 PM »
do you think Guts' white hair will be cured and will be back to its original color?

No, I don't think so.

Offline Jajimufu

Re: Questions about the Count, Godhand and our humanity.
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 02:37:23 AM »
In my opinion, I don't think the Godhand lied to the Count. I honestly think that they granted his wishes intending for him to never experience sorrow of despair ever again.
Then comes Guts.
If the Godhand didn't lie to the Count, then that means one thing:
Guts has once again denied the destiny built for another (as he already has done) by the Godhand, proving once again that they do not have absolute power over everything, only over things that possess evil. Which means they have no power over what Guts does.
Is the Godhand more powerful than Guts?
Yes.
Does the Godhand control Guts?
No.
The Godhand aren't 5 gods, just a couple of dudes and dudette with immense demonic powers.