Author Topic: Guts VS Zodd 3  (Read 3246 times)

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Offline Demon Knight

Guts VS Zodd 3
« on: December 17, 2016, 02:31:28 PM »
Guts and Zodd rivalry is one of the best thing about Berserk imo. They had 2 duels and both are interesting.
The first one in the Golden age and the 2nd one in Hawk of The Millennium Empire arc.
It seems like Zodd was holding back in both fights, but even tho Guts managed to wound him in both fights anyway.
The second fight he almost broke Zodd's sword then Zodd pulled a random sword from the hill of swords. Guts kicked a random sword and wounded Zodd too.
The 2nd fight was REALLY REALLY AMAZING to me, (I hope the 2017 anime do it well...) Anyway, Guts never defeated Zodd in his apostle form in both fights.


I think Zodd does want to fight Guts one more time, and it seems like the 3rd time Zodd won't go easy, and he will release his full power. After Guts and Zodd teamed together to kill Ganishka. Zodd said he will fight Guts again in a ''duel''.

Now after Guts became lot stronger than before, and he now has the Berserker armor, I think in a 3rd duel between Guts and Zodd. Guts would win.

About Berserker armor Guts VS Apostle Zodd, do you think Guts is now able to kill Zodd?

Offline zegodhand

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 05:58:35 PM »
As was said, Zodd held back/had to cut things short in their previous skirmishes. There's really no telling how strong he is. Honestly, I'd still give it to Zodd if I just had to bet. Guts is a heck of a lot "stronger" than he was before, just because of the new armor, but I don't think he'll ever be on par with Zodd. He's one of, if not the strongest of the living apostles. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong! :guts:

Offline DANGERDOOOOM

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2016, 07:32:24 PM »
The 2nd fight was REALLY REALLY AMAZING to me, (I hope the 2017 anime do it well...)

After subjecting myself to the 2016 anime, hoping and crossing my fingers that they wouldn't fuck up a certain scene, they did a great job messing it up. I'm not expecting much from this fight scene.

Offline Mammon

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2016, 10:04:15 PM »
Don't forget that the Berserker Armor is not the only improvement that Guts will have this time around.

Against Evil, his Dragon Slayer must be way stronger since that time at Fiora's mansion, since he mowed down tons of Trolls, Ogres, apostles (Zodd's troops), and most importantly laid the finishing blow against the Sea God with it.  :isidro:

If the fight against Grunbeld (who must be weaker than Zodd, but is still top-tiers apostles wise) when Guts first donned the armor is any indication, our protagonist could now slice through Zodd's transformed form like butter, and keep going until he can't regenerate any more.

When Guts was "riding" him, Zodd seemed to take the threat of the DS seriously...

If the SK duel during the eclipse also is of any indication, Zodd (transformed) discards weapons and only fights with his (rather small, considering...) claws... and his horn(s);
he is insanely strong (easily breaking Wyald's back, tanking several attacks from Ganishka) and quick, but is far from impervious to swords.
Both Griffith and Guts (very strong and skilled, but young and still humans) slashed him pretty deep during their Golden Age tag attack.

So with improved armor and improved Dragon Slayer, my money is on  :guts: 
I wouldn't be surprised if Zodd's remaining (and still growing) horn will end up being cut by Guts, that would be fitting.

Zodd could potentially fly and escape if he feels things are getting too dangerous, but it's not in his character as Miura established it.

The only way I could see Zodd winning would be crushing Guts with his overwhelming strength, like putting him in a bear hug and apply maximum force until  :sad: is crushed. But Guts should be too nimble now to get caught in his grip...

Long days and pleasant nights

Offline zegodhand

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 03:48:59 AM »
I didn't really take that the sword has become "stronger" since then into consideration, dumb me, but that is definitely true. However, if Zodd plays it super smart (like he would?), i.e. crushing him or using his flight, he could beat Guts fairly easily.

I'd say that Zodd wouldn't be "cheap" like this, but we see that he changes into his apostle form relatively quickly while fighting Guts, so I think he'd do anything to win.

When Guts was "riding" him, Zodd seemed to take the threat of the DS seriously...

Yeh but that's just because Zodd was in a very vulnerable position, even Guts' last sword would've been worrisome in that circumstance.


Him losing the other horn would be pretty fitting, maybe, but I still think evidence points to Zodd coming out on top under general conditions. Hell of a fight either way.

Luck may shift Guts' way and he come out on top. That's what I'd hope for.

Guts has speed and crazy impressive agility on his side, but hey, when ya got wings and ya know how to use em, ya got an advantage. Grab guts, fly a couple hundred feet up, crush him a bit, drop him. Badabing badaboom.

Guts won't die in a fight against Zodd or anything though, I think we can all assume that much.

Offline Pink-Dark-Boy

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 03:36:01 PM »
I am somewhat doubtful that in all of their duels, Zodd was putting his all behind his strikes like Guts was. The former being capable of throwing a horse-slayer a few kilometers away; his exchange to Guts on the hill of swords after his sword was damaged lead me to believe that. Despite this, I think Guts with the Berserker Armor would utterly demolish Zodd's human form. Just as he did against Grunbeld.

Apostle form? I don't think it would be the same case, if most matches with Zodd and Skull Knight end with either a stalemate or the latter doing just a tad bit better. It would most likely be Guts losing the fight. Maybe a good ol surprise arm cannon will tip the scales! :troll:


Online Walter

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2016, 03:09:04 AM »
To answer the question, I think that Miura has placed Zodd's duels with Guts in very strategic locations — to show the progress of Guts as a warrior. Initially he was overwhelmed (and survived on a technicality), but he eventually grew as a warrior, and acclimated to the increased stakes of battling against overwhelming enemies, able to one-up Zodd in his human form, but still be no match for his full strength as an apostle. Next time though? The trajectory of their past duels tells no lies — Guts will be the victor. As a human who also sought a life of combat, Guts is poetically suited to be the one to end Zodd's life. And it'll be a sad moment  :sad:

Guts and Zodd rivalry is one of the best thing about Berserk imo. They had 2 duels and both are interesting.

Counting the Dreamcast game, they've actually fought three times.

Against Evil, his Dragon Slayer must be way stronger since that time at Fiora's mansion, since he mowed down tons of Trolls, Ogres, apostles (Zodd's troops), and most importantly laid the finishing blow against the Sea God with it.  :isidro:

No, that's not how the imbued evil power within the Dragon Slayer works. All those astral enemies Guts has slashed over the years allows his blade to leave astral wounds (like the ones Slan left him), and enables him to damage to things that shouldn't be able to be reached by a standard blade. That the Dragon Slayer could damage Ganishka in his apostle/fog form was a perfect example of this additional property. Being able to dispel Slan's form was icing on the cake.  So it's an added attribute to the sword's power, not stacked damage. And it's not as if in the climactic, final battle between Guts and Zodd, leaving astral scars would really be  much of a factor.

:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2016, 09:28:26 AM »
About Berserker armor Guts VS Apostle Zodd, do you think Guts is now able to kill Zodd?

Yes.

Offline Sancho

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 01:58:55 PM »
Guts vs Zodd is one the moments i'm looking forward the most for the series. But there's a question i've always wondered, will Guts use the Armor's power in that battle? Personally, i don't think so, in their previous duels Guts always managed to prevail against Zodd's human form, and on the Hills of the swords he even put up a decent match against his apostle's form managing to wound him slightly on the chest, and moreover in my opinion having him use the armor in such a duel that 2 times precedently took place without any magic weapon but just with sheer skills.... i don't know if i would fully appreciate that. Their duel also represent the tiny human power which prevails, through struggling and enduring, against the power of a monster.

My take is that by the end of the story Guts will have somehow managed to hold off the Beast of Darkness, even in the most critical and desperate of the situations, so that he could face even such a strong opponent as Zodd without resorting to the power of the armor and going berserk, just like he managed to do against Serpico. I doubt he'll ever remove the armor before the end, if not for resting, as i doubt Miura will have Schierke intervene to save him from the armor, their duel must be a 1 vs 1 after all, so that's the only conclusion i can see.

Offline Mammon

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2016, 08:12:31 PM »
No, that's not how the imbued evil power within the Dragon Slayer works. All those astral enemies Guts has slashed over the years allows his blade to leave astral wounds (like the ones Slan left him), and enables him to damage to things that shouldn't be able to be reached by a standard blade. That the Dragon Slayer could damage Ganishka in his apostle/fog form was a perfect example of this additional property. Being able to dispel Slan's form was icing on the cake.  So it's an added attribute to the sword's power, not stacked damage. And it's not as if in the climactic, final battle between Guts and Zodd, leaving astral scars would really be  much of a factor.

Oh wow. I'm a bit ashamed to have been a Berserk fan for so long (bought my first volume in French 10+ years ago) and not having understood such a crucial point.
I really thought that, to put in bluntly: "by killing a lot of Evil with it, the stronger it grows against Evil"
I don't even have my volumes with me to check to translation, but the French one has a good reputation in general (Berserk is very popular over here).

So to make sure I got it straight: when the DS was forged it was "just" an immense blade, but Guts wouldn't have been able to (literally) touch Femto with it;
But now he can, even if it would just be a "regular" BF sword in this potential duel against a God Hand member.
And the important point that I missed => it doesn't deal more damage to apostles now than when Guts killed the... was it a pig or a dog apostle, the 2016 anime confused me.
anyway, it is just as "strong against Evil" now than then...

Thanks a lot for the explanation Walter, I reaaaally need to read them all again.

Online Walter

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 08:25:18 PM »
So to make sure I got it straight: when the DS was forged it was "just" an immense blade, but Guts wouldn't have been able to (literally) touch Femto with it;

Well, I think creating a hypothetical scenario like that is confusing. It's best to just stick to what we know: the sword can now strike astral bodies.

Quote
And the important point that I missed => it doesn't deal more damage to apostles now than when Guts killed the... was it a pig or a dog apostle, the 2016 anime confused me.  anyway, it is just as "strong against Evil" now than then...

It was already an insanely damaging weapon due to its size, and its wielder.  A sword like that is still going to cleave an apostle in two. Now it has accumulated an additional property allowing it to strike astral bodies instead of "just" physical ones. But I don't think that property was consequential at all until SK pointed out how it could be used against Slan, and Guts figures it out for himself with Ganishka.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 08:53:54 PM »
My take is that by the end of the story Guts will have somehow managed to hold off the Beast of Darkness, even in the most critical and desperate of the situations, so that he could face even such a strong opponent as Zodd without resorting to the power of the armor and going berserk, just like he managed to do against Serpico.

Just to be clear, even when the armor isn't "activated" the wearer still feels its effects. So it kind of breaks the rules in any case (not that it's a fair fight to begin with). Putting that aside though I think the question should be whether a mindless Guts can win against Zodd, even with the power of the armor. And to me the answer is no. Could Guts win by using the power of the armor while staying in control? Yep.

I don't even have my volumes with me to check to translation, but the French one has a good reputation in general (Berserk is very popular over here).

From what I know of it (which admittedly isn't much) the French edition isn't particularly good.

Offline Mammon

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2016, 04:11:33 AM »
Quote
  A sword like that is still going to cleave an apostle in two. Now it has accumulated an additional property allowing it to strike astral bodies instead of "just" physical ones. But I don't think that property was consequential at all until SK pointed out how it could be used against Slan, and Guts figures it out for himself with Ganishka.

More than ok with the apostle part, I tried to convey it myself but it must be lost in translation. Seriously my English is very rusty and I've never been fully fluent anyway;
That's why I had to reread your first answer a couple times thinking "well we're pretty much on the same page, why are we even argu" and then it hit me
like :rickert:
All the possibilities, damn... thanks a lot.
I had trouble understanding at first, but now I think my comprehension of Berserk and what might be up next juste went up a bit  :serpico:

@Aazealh
Quote
From what I know of it (which admittedly isn't much) the French edition isn't particularly good.
I actually don't know much either anymore, been away from France for a good while...
But back then, local fans are kind of divided;
The translators seem to have put a lot of work in their middle-âge terms/slang, like a "Berserk tone".. there is a (not bad IMHO) mix of normal and French"moyenâgeux" when people talk ...  you like it or not.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:58:15 AM by Mammon »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 09:22:06 AM »
The translators seem to have put a lot of work in their middle-âge terms/slang, like a "Berserk tone".. there is a (not bad IMHO) mix of normal and French"moyenâgeux" when people talk ...  you like it or not.

What matters is whether that tone reflects what the original dialogue is like. And also, of course, whether or not it's accurate.

Offline Demon Knight

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2016, 10:04:53 AM »
Well, thanks for all your thoughts and answers.
To say my own thought about Berserker armor Guts VS Apostle Zodd. I think Guts would definitely win the battle.

Offline Sancho

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 04:16:28 PM »
Just to be clear, even when the armor isn't "activated" the wearer still feels its effects. So it kind of breaks the rules in any case (not that it's a fair fight to begin with).

True. I forgot that line of Guts in vol 27, on the beach, when he said the armor allow him to feel a bit less pain even when it's not activated.

Quote
Putting that aside though I think the question should be whether a mindless Guts can win against Zodd, even with the power of the armor. And to me the answer is no. Could Guts win by using the power of the armor while staying in control? Yep.

I also agree that he could win in that condition, and that's why i think it would be a bit cheap if Guts would win resorting to the armor, considering that he didn't fared so bad without it during their last encounter.

Online Walter

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 04:31:06 PM »
I also agree that he could win in that condition, and that's why i think it would be a bit cheap if Guts would win resorting to the armor, considering that he didn't fared so bad without it during their last encounter.

I don't understand this notion of the armor being "cheap." As an apostle imbued with evil power, Zodd fighting a human is pretty "cheap" too. But Guts is using his own strength as a human, just pushed to its limits. Anyway, Guts didn't very fare very well at all against Zodd's transformed state. Zodd just tossed Guts around the mountain like a ragdoll until Griffith called him off.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Sancho

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 04:46:44 PM »
I don't understand this notion of the armor being "cheap." As an apostle imbued with evil power, Zodd fighting a human is pretty "cheap" too. But Guts is using his own strength as a human, just pushed to its limits. Anyway, Guts didn't very fare very well at all against Zodd's transformed state. Zodd just tossed Guts around the mountain like a ragdoll until Griffith called him off.

It's just that after their 2 previous epic encounter i would prefer that the last one will develop in a similar fashion. I understand that Zodd not being human is already unfair, but Guts with the amor is just a bit too powerful, i fear it would lessen the inevitable tension of the moment for the readers, we would think "Guts has the armor, so the situation is not so bad". Instead, if circumstances would dictate he could not use the armor, like if he still couldn't control it by himself without Schierke (which i think will happen against Femto), the scene would be far more tense and frightful both for the characters and the readers.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 04:56:47 PM by Sancho »

Online Griffith

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 07:37:20 PM »
My quick Guts/Zodd takes: They've technically had 4 matches considering how Zodd differentiates between his "human" and transformed states, and almost 5 before they quickly set aside their differences despite Guts putting the DS to Zodd's neck and Zodd letting him go later. :guts:

Anyway, I score it for Guts 2 wins (Zodd never did beat Guts man to man =), 1 loss (1st transformed encounter), and a tie/incomplete when Zodd was again tossing Guts around on the hill of swords. Though, unlike the first time Zodd didn't really do any damage or have Guts in a compromising position in the fight; you could even argue Guts held his own sending Zodd headfirst into the mountainside, and he certainly wasn't worse for the wear after they stopped.

Basically, Zodd hasn't beat Guts "human" and Guts has yet to slay him transformed, but I feel like they were almost evenly matched even before Guts got the armor and he could have theoretically beat Zodd since he was still in that fight and it's always going to look uneven against a powerful Apostle, let alone Zodd. Guts has fared far worse in fights and come away the one still breathing though. Zodd hasn't had the same untouchable mystique to me since then, so even if he is in fact the most powerful Apostle he's now a more symbolic obstacle to Guts than anything he couldn't handle if it came down to it. To put it another way, Guts has a weapon he's used to expel a God Hand, his enemies and aims are higher than Zodd (though Guts would probably say they're all just monsters =).

That's not to disparage Zodd either, he's a total badass and it's not like he wouldn't be capable of beating Guts, armor and all, but that's as much about the strength of his character, like Guts, as his physical strengths. How neat would it be to see the roles reversed and Zodd having to dig deep and use his smarts to find a way to stave off Guts' attacks as a wild beast? Unlike Grunbeld, I'm sure he'd love it on some level. :zodd:
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 04:23:00 AM by Griffith »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 08:00:28 PM »
I understand that Zodd not being human is already unfair, but Guts with the amor is just a bit too powerful, i fear it would lessen the inevitable tension of the moment for the readers, we would think "Guts has the armor, so the situation is not so bad".

You should have more faith in Miura.

How neat would it be to see the roles reversed and Zodd having to dig deep and use his smarts to find a way to stave off Guts' attacks as a wild beast?

Pretty damn neat.

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2016, 08:02:44 PM »
You should have more faith in Miura.

And as you pointed out, a mindless Guts is actually at a longterm disadvantage against an opponent like Zodd.

Offline Sancho

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2016, 04:34:05 PM »
You should have more faith in Miura.

I guess so, he never failed to disappoint until now. Maybe it'll be just in that duel's final moments that Guts's mind, with a new conviction other than revenge, will finally be healed and he'll managed to control the armor to both save his life and to land the final hit on Zodd's horn. It would be fitting for the theme of humanity prevailing over monster, where both Zodd, the strongest apostle and Guts's enemy, and the BoD represent monsters.

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Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2016, 05:29:17 PM »
I don't think the armor is much different than Guts going from getting his ass handed to him by Apostles versus chopping literally those same Apostles in half via the acquisition of The Dragon Slayer. I get that the sword didn't originally have any magical properties, other than the special property of being ridiculously huge and not realistically wieldable by anyone ever, let alone single-handed (or with one's teeth =). That brings me to the point that "cheapness" can go both ways and at certain point it would become ludicrous, or limiting, for Guts to just be able to kill these beings like they were all unruly bar patrons he'd managed to outmuscle with training and force of will; which is essentially just Dragonball Z. Either Miura would have to seriously downgrade the previously established strength of enemies like the God Hand or he'd have to just have Guts keep winning in more unbelievably ridiculous underdog fashion, "OMG Femto reduced Guts to a ball of squished flesh but by sheer force of will he went RAAAAWWRRRGH and re-expanded himself to punch Femto's head off, so much legit human power!"

On the contrary, the properties of the armor in fact allow Miura to raise the stakes by increasing Guts' ceiling as a force to be reckoned with in this supernatural world, but only in equal measure to the added risk and punishment he takes on, and with the stipulation that it's still the limits of Guts' own body to hold up to it, so he's still mortal and burdened with the same human frailty compared to his opponents. Guts is still basically just betting on his ability to kill his enemies before he gets killed, but not just by them anymore. It's harder than ever for Guts in fact, so I don't think that's cheap, but fair trade (actually, pretty unfair because now Guts sustaining these awful injuries like broken limbs which he miraculously always seemed to avoid before =). So, I'm impressed, not disappointed, with the cleverness and added potential of that solution to the previously stated problem (also, it's not out of the blue with the logical ties to Skull Knight). Basically, it's the best possible raising of the stakes without fundamentally altering the parameters of how/why Guts fights and we root for him.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 05:41:52 PM by Griffith »

Offline Sancho

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2016, 10:24:24 AM »
I don't think the armor is much different than Guts going from getting his ass handed to him by Apostles versus chopping literally those same Apostles in half via the acquisition of The Dragon Slayer. I get that the sword didn't originally have any magical properties, other than the special property of being ridiculously huge and not realistically wieldable by anyone ever, let alone single-handed (or with one's teeth =). That brings me to the point that "cheapness" can go both ways and at certain point it would become ludicrous, or limiting, for Guts to just be able to kill these beings like they were all unruly bar patrons he'd managed to outmuscle with training and force of will; which is essentially just Dragonball Z. Either Miura would have to seriously downgrade the previously established strength of enemies like the God Hand or he'd have to just have Guts keep winning in more unbelievably ridiculous underdog fashion,

It's not like i was saying he could win just by sheer force of will of course.

"OMG Femto reduced Guts to a ball of squished flesh but by sheer force of will he went RAAAAWWRRRGH and re-expanded himself to punch Femto's head off, so much legit human power!"

 :ganishka:

On the contrary, the properties of the armor in fact allow Miura to raise the stakes by increasing Guts' ceiling as a force to be reckoned with in this supernatural world, but only in equal measure to the added risk and punishment he takes on, and with the stipulation that it's still the limits of Guts' own body to hold up to it, so he's still mortal and burdened with the same human frailty compared to his opponents. Guts is still basically just betting on his ability to kill his enemies before he gets killed, but not just by them anymore. It's harder than ever for Guts in fact, so I don't think that's cheap, but fair trade (actually, pretty unfair because now Guts sustaining these awful injuries like broken limbs which he miraculously always seemed to avoid before =). So, I'm impressed, not disappointed, with the cleverness and added potential of that solution to the previously stated problem (also, it's not out of the blue with the logical ties to Skull Knight). Basically, it's the best possible raising of the stakes without fundamentally altering the parameters of how/why Guts fights and we root for him.

Yes, i get how the armor is not just a unfair "buff" for Guts, i'm just a bit nostalgic of their previous duels. Maybe a feature of their last battle will be that Guts will have to continuously use the armor just a bit, while keeping control of himself, in order to give him the moderate advantage the armor provides while it's not completely activated, just like he failed to do against the Pishaca on the beach, and finally succeed on that. If he would give up even for an instant he would go berserk and being without reason Zodd could kill him.

Offline Shambles

Re: Guts VS Zodd 3
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2017, 05:13:28 PM »
Zodd is a BA Mofo but guts is the struggler, he wins all day everyday