Author Topic: Episode 351  (Read 13113 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2017, 02:43:28 PM »
Casca was not raped by the apostles. There isn't actually much ambiguity on the matter. The sequence of events in the Eclipse (with tension building up as an apostle gets ready to do the deed) wouldn't make sense otherwise. And by the way, the monsters in this episode aren't so much representations of the apostles as they are representations of the male genitalia. Which is what Casca is physiologically revulsed by... Because she was raped by Femto.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2017, 03:06:54 PM »
I think this experience is more about personal development (for both Farnese and Schierke) than gaining "power". No doubt it will benefit them on several fronts, but the way you approach this feels rather reductive to me. And let's also not forget that there might be negative consequences for them in the end. Like Schierke said, direct exposure to what traumatized Casca would hurt them as well, and even just being wounded in that environment could have repercussions in the real world. So there's still a chance they'll come out of this with a few scars of their own.

These were the actual people in her dream (and not simply their clothes), just represented differently. I don't think it will come into play. Unless there is a final enemy guarding the "egg" in addition to the thorns, I think next episode will focus on them dealing with the painful memory of Casca's rape and then confronting her after the doll becomes whole.

I think we'll definitely get a final confrontation with the way everything has been setup and building, particularly the escalation of the monsters and our heroes' vulnerability in the dreamscape ("If you die in the Matrix..." =). I'm guessing they'll have to recover the memory and reconcile things with Casca while simultaneously fending off the attack (by throwing whatever they've got left at it). If they have to split their attention restoring Casca herself would be appropriate work for Farnese, actually. I'm also holding out hope Casca will ultimately banish everything wicked once restored, if it isn't automatic or some combination thereof.

Best part is Mozgus' catchphrase, lol.

"TENBATSU TEKIMEN GOD PRESS!!"   :mozgus:

This will be hard to top, ever, and a perfect match for such dirty, sinful monsters! :mozgus:

Unfortunately this episode is bringing up some people that believe Casca was raped by the apostles before Femto in the eclipse (phallic creatures), and don't that want to understand that she was not.
I thought she was, with how excited the apostles were to have a female sacrifice, the panel of her bleeding crotch, and the flashbacks during later sexual assaults. Or do you mean specifically penetrated by their genitals as opposed to tentacles and thorny tongues?

Yeah, we don't see that happen and actually see it prevented as Aaz points out, and there are practical/plot reasons for it to be Femto alone (the corruption of the child to become his vessel), but as far as the trauma goes I don't think it matters so much as she was violently assaulted and violated by them in facilitation of the rape, and they alone have been sufficient symbol of the horror of that whole experience. Otherwise, it's a weird thing to be important to people.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 03:30:57 PM by Griffith »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2017, 05:02:12 PM »
I think we'll definitely get a final confrontation with the way everything has been setup and building, particularly the escalation of the monsters and our heroes' vulnerability in the dreamscape ("If you die in the Matrix..." =). I'm guessing they'll have to recover the memory and reconcile things with Casca while simultaneously fending off the attack (by throwing whatever they've got left at it).

Well the thing is I think the brambles might not just sit there as the group makes its way through, and may prove to be a serious obstacle themselves (i.e. come alive and attack).

as far as the trauma goes I don't think it matters so much as she was violently assaulted and violated by them in facilitation of the rape, and they alone have been sufficient symbol of the horror of that whole experience.

Yeah... It was traumatic enough as it was. Enough that she fainted.

Offline Femto777

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2017, 07:20:20 PM »
Did anyone notice that the first phallic monsters they encountered looked like the demon child? They even have the little arms.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2017, 07:54:07 PM »
Did anyone notice that the first phallic monsters they encountered looked like the demon child? They even have the little arms.

I can guarantee you that whatever resemblance you see there is 100% unintentional.

Offline Femto777

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2017, 08:09:01 PM »
I can guarantee you that whatever resemblance you see there is 100% unintentional.
Oh really.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 10:12:03 PM by Femto777 »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2017, 08:43:44 PM »
Oh really.

Yes, really.

Suggesting otherwise is actually pretty stupid. These monsters represent things Casca feels aversion towards (reminder: she does not feel aversion towards her son). They're associated with the trauma of the abuse she suffered at Femto's hands. Oh and also they're obviously shaped like penises.

Offline Femto777

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2017, 09:19:17 PM »
Yes, really.

Suggesting otherwise is actually pretty stupid. These monsters represent things Casca feels aversion towards (reminder: she does not feel aversion towards her son). They're associated with the trauma of the abuse she suffered at Femto's hands. Oh and also they're obviously shaped like penises.
I am well aware of that what clenched it for me was not just the general shape and mouth but also the arms.
If it hadn't been for the arms I would have just seen it as visually unintentional but the arms just seem like an odd little detail. I assumed that the monsters represented her child's disfigurement as a result of Femto's sexual assault. Not aversion to her child.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 11:58:08 PM by Femto777 »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2017, 05:10:14 AM »
I am well aware of that what clenched it for me was not just the general shape and mouth but also the arms.

I understand, but nah. The small arms are just a coincidence. They're not even that similar. These monsters all symbolize a single thing: an unwelcome penis. It makes no sense to relate it to the boy. His birth came after her illness, too. This scene is all about the Eclipse.

Offline Femto777

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2017, 05:19:30 AM »
I'll concede that I'm wrong also after looking at the other monsters the canine looking ones also had similar looking limbs.
Pardon me for responding with oh really earlier Aazealh I made that response in haste obviously not my best.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2017, 06:07:26 AM »
Pardon me for responding with oh really earlier Aazealh I made that response in haste obviously not my best.

Don't worry about it, although yeah I would generally recommend to listen to what I say. :iva:

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2017, 10:47:02 AM »
Overall I feel a little let down by the corridor of dreams sequence, the art and the drama is stunning as usual, however we are at the last memory peice and neither Farnese nor Schierke seem to have had much difficulty getting this far, every time they face a horde of monsters they summon their dream artifacts to kill them, neither them nor the dog have sustained any injuries or setbacks so far.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2017, 11:40:31 AM »
Overall I feel a little let down by the corridor of dreams sequence, the art and the drama is stunning as usual, however we are at the last memory peice and neither Farnese nor Schierke seem to have had much difficulty getting this far, every time they face a horde of monsters they summon their dream artifacts to kill them, neither them nor the dog have sustained any injuries or setbacks so far.

Just you wait untill the next one. I'm sure it won't be as "easy" as it was for the moment. They do look tired and dirty though. So I would not say that it was a walk in the park. And considering where the last fragment is, they might not come back unscathered mentally and physically. Though I doubt anything mortal will happen.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2017, 03:26:49 PM »
Just you wait untill the next one. I'm sure it won't be as "easy" as it was for the moment. They do look tired and dirty though. So I would not say that it was a walk in the park. And considering where the last fragment is, they might not come back unscathered mentally and physically. Though I doubt anything mortal will happen.

Yea, if you read the whole dreamscape sequence from the beginning it is quite the journey. Surreal, confusing, emotional, informative, and by the way the characters appear at the end of this last episode here, clearly it's been an exhausting experience for them. Also let's not forget that there was a lot that we weren't shown, given how small the broken fragments were. We can assume that they spent a lot of time collecting the pieces. In fact, I like to think that since they aren't exactly bound to the laws of real time, perhaps they've been doing this for what could seem like an eternity, fighting off endless waves after waves of enemies. So even without Miura needlessly showing it to us, we can fill in the blanks and piece the whole incredible journey together which honestly, just imagining it seems draining, physically and emotionally. And of course it goes without saying that the real challenge is just ahead. If you think it's been too easy for them so far, just imagine that everything up until now has been the easy part and just look at how exhausted and disheveled they look at the end there. The real challenge has only just begun.

Anyway loved the episode, of course. A little bummed about the break though. I never comment on the breaks, but this one stings because I was expecting a steady stream through summer and was really looking forward to it (WE'RE SO CLOSE! WE NEED CASCA BACK! :casca:).  C'est la vie.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2017, 03:43:00 PM »
As I've said, I actually appreciate Miura making this as little of a slog as possible; isn't 20 years long enough? We don't need to spend entire episodes on each challenge, monster, or confrontation Schierke and Farnese face to make the effort meaningful. I'm bummed out enough there wasn't enough time to get to Casca before the break, but of course I don't want it rushed either. It's at least a comforting delusion (because a lot of the work is probably already done) that Miura will be taking all this time to get this momentous event just right! :casca:
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 03:55:44 PM by Griffith »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2017, 04:00:55 PM »
Yea, if you read the whole dreamscape sequence from the beginning it is quite the journey. Surreal, confusing, emotional, informative, and by the way the characters appear at the end of this last episode here, clearly it's been an exhausting experience for them. Also let's not forget that there was a lot that we weren't shown, given how small the broken fragments were. We can assume that they spent a lot of time collecting the pieces. In fact, I like to think that since they aren't exactly bound to the laws of real time, perhaps they've been doing this for what could seem like an eternity, fighting off endless waves after waves of enemies. So even without Miura needlessly showing it to us, we can fill in the blanks and piece the whole incredible journey together which honestly, just imagining it seems draining, physically and emotionally. And of course it goes without saying that the real challenge is just ahead. If you think it's been too easy for them so far, just imagine that everything up until now has been the easy part and just look at how exhausted and disheveled they look at the end there. The real challenge has only just begun.

Indeed. Even just this last episode, taken by itself, is completely frantic. It's a rush to the summit as they basically run through (and away from) scores of enemies and have like three or four close-misses. They look completely disheveled and exhausted, and Schierke readily admitted she was completely out of options before Farnese thought to use her own little dream as a last resort trick.

And now they stand in front of what's been the real challenge all along. Witnessing the memories of Guts in the cave or on the hill as they talked about the Bonfire of Dreams was never going to be a problem, rather it's just a window into Casca's past for them. So the fact they had to undergo a timeless journey to search for every little piece was already a bigger ordeal than people expected. It took great perseverance and was only possible in the first place because Danan helped them get through and then continuously guided them along the way.

To complain that they haven't been hurt is to miss the point (they're only using the dream rules to their advantage, as they should) when it was clearly a test of determination and endurance. Not to mention that it informed us about how incredibly strong Casca's trauma is (and how strongly part of her mind resists the healing process). And now comes the real test, since they will confront the actual trauma, the memory they set out to find in the first place. This is the part where they can and probably will get hurt to some extent, the part that will be likely be emotionally devastating for the readers and characters alike. They will have to get to that last fragment (and again, those brambles don't look friendly to me), to make her whole again, and then to deal with the consequences.

I'm bummed out enough there wasn't enough time to get to Casca before the break, but of course I don't want it rushed either. It's at least a comforting delusion (because a lot of the work is probably already done) that Miura will be taking all this time to get this momentous event just right! :casca:

I don't think it's a coincidence that there's a hiatus now. The next episode (and the ones after it) will be momentous, one of the most important in the entire series. It's not that surprising that Miura would want to take his time with it, though of course it means a long and painful wait for us.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2017, 04:24:25 PM »
To complain that they haven't been hurt is to miss the point

On the contrary, I measure the quality of Berserk almost solely by how much people get hurt. :guts: :beast:

I don't think it's a coincidence that there's a hiatus now. The next episode (and the ones after it) will be momentous, one of the most important in the entire series. It's not that surprising that Miura would want to take his time with it, though of course it means a long and painful wait for us.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense: following the series current scheduling there's not enough time to plow straight through or do it justice in the space available up to this episode, and so this is the opportune moment, before they reach the final memory/challenge/Casca, to break away on a cliffhanger and leave us in suspense, which will also provide requisite time to be sure these pivotal upcoming episodes are just right before release, and hopefully allow us to complete this segment with Casca's return in its entirety during the next run.

Zodd will be attacking Elfhelm by the next cliffhanger! :zodd: :badbone:

Offline phantomman

Re: Episode 351
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2017, 03:25:36 PM »
I just hope that this whole event of curing Casca won't be limited to going through her memories. So far it's kinda uneventful and it's pretty generic for what it is. Think about it - healing Casca should be way more complex than just a sequence of memories we all know. Sure we learn some stuff (somewhat) but I don't think this is what people were really hyped for. Hopefully the last fragment is going to mean the whole new challenge for Schierke and Farnese. Something that makes this journey unforgettable.

Offline Kazm

Re: Episode 351
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2017, 11:18:51 PM »
Howdy all. Long time lurker, first time poster here. I couldn't help but think the imagery was very much like going into Casca's womb, especially with the very obvious phallic looking monsters, and the singular "egg" attached atop a hill with thorns growing out. It was all very embryonic to me.

One could speculate (not sure how well admittedly) the Femto rape also was a violation of everything she had perhaps subconsciously hoped for in family, children, "settling down" etc. Not going as far to say whatever demonic influence Femto had in corrupting her fetus also corrupted her mind, however. I do wonder though if restoring Casca will have implications for the moon child. Excited to see what comes next to say the least.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2017, 08:59:13 AM »
I just hope that this whole event of curing Casca won't be limited to going through her memories. So far it's kinda uneventful and it's pretty generic for what it is. Think about it - healing Casca should be way more complex than just a sequence of memories we all know.

Seems to me you're the one who needs to think some more before posting.

Schierke and Farnese haven't just been going through Casca's memories. They're been journeying through a desolate landscape beyond time in order to collect each and every fragment of her broken ego, all the while fighting off hellish creatures birthed by the hostile environment (said environment being a product of Casca's mind). It wasn't uneventful, nor was it "generic", a word you apparently don't know the meaning of. No one knew what to expect from her "dream", and it's not quite like anything we've seen before. It has also certainly not been depicted as an easy process so far, and yet all of what they've done has merely set up the stage for the actual task they must accomplish: deal with the event that broke Casca and find a way to fix it.

Sure we learn some stuff (somewhat) but I don't think this is what people were really hyped for. Hopefully the last fragment is going to mean the whole new challenge for Schierke and Farnese. Something that makes this journey unforgettable.

As far as I know people have been pretty excited about every episode within the Corridor of Dreams, and it's been quite unique and unforgettable already.
It's also pretty obvious that dealing with the actual traumatic event at the center of everything will be a big challenge. It's what shattered Casca's mind to begin with, so it's not like having gathered the broken parts will help with it. They'll need to bear witness to the rape, a process which could hurt them, then they'll have to get Casca's mind to accept to bear it, which I don't imagine will be easy.

Offline phantomman

Re: Episode 351
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2017, 09:33:16 AM »
I am not saying that the whole sequence is useless but if you exclude the fact that Schierke and Farnese are learning about stuff through snippets of memories and the fact that we see Casca's mind being this much twisted - it really is generic. The trope of collecting pieces of memories and putting it together is generic, which is a shame. I have seen better examples of that in other work of art.  I respect Miura's ideas for this manga, but this moment is underwhelming (so far) and to say otherwise is to fool yourself. Whatever, not going to argue with a person who sees Miura as someone who can't make a mistake. Waste of time.


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2017, 09:54:46 AM »
I am not saying that the whole sequence is useless but if you exclude the fact that Schierke and Farnese are learning about stuff through snippets of memories and the fact that we see Casca's mind being this much twisted - it really is generic.

"If you exclude the world and the characters as well as the actions that take place in the story and how it's all represented visually, then..."

:schierke:

I respect Miura's ideas for this manga, but this moment is underwhelming (so far) and to say otherwise is to fool yourself. Whatever, not going to argue with a person who sees Miura as someone who can't make a mistake. Waste of time.

Yeah after that brilliant demonstration I certainly wouldn't want you to waste anyone's time anymore.

Offline Urosh

Re: Episode 351
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2017, 09:58:48 AM »
"So far it's kinda uneventful and it's pretty generic for what it is.", "... healing Casca should be way more complex than just a sequence of memories."

Miura took the psychoanalitical concept of therapy under hypnosis and masterfully adapted it into a fantastical dreamland scenario filled to the brim with symbolism, adventuring and monster slaying while maintaing the focus on the emotional distress of Casca and the disturbance of such powerful imagery taking its toll on both Farnese and Schierke.

Uneventful, generic, simple... Gee, I wonder why I'm having a hard time listing other works such as this.
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Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2017, 11:19:31 AM »
I just hope that this whole event of curing Casca won't be limited to going through her memories. So far it's kinda uneventful and it's pretty generic for what it is. Think about it - healing Casca should be way more complex than just a sequence of memories we all know. Sure we learn some stuff (somewhat) but I don't think this is what people were really hyped for. Hopefully the last fragment is going to mean the whole new challenge for Schierke and Farnese. Something that makes this journey unforgettable.

Hopefully the final fragment will be a more difficult challenge, after all it is the event that drove Casca mad, and it is something she will have to come to terms with, since they're out of talismans, I'm hoping the sprite Casca will play a role in overcoming the eclipse.

Offline Menosgade

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Re: Episode 351
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2017, 11:49:46 AM »
I am not saying that the whole sequence is useless but if you exclude the fact that Schierke and Farnese are learning about stuff through snippets of memories and the fact that we see Casca's mind being this much twisted - it really is generic.

I guess that if you exclude the characters, their relations with each other and the story being built arround them, it's not a manga anymore it's just a generic piece of paper with ink.

Hopefully the final fragment will be a more difficult challenge, after all it is the event that drove Casca mad, and it is something she will have to come to terms with, since they're out of talismans, I'm hoping the sprite Casca will play a role in overcoming the eclipse.

It's not about the "challenge". This word is being used a lot here, but I don't think this is what Miura wants to convey. He has shown that it wasn't easy up to this point. People are finding it "unchallenging" because everything happened somewhat fast, and that's understandable, however, it simplly had to. From a storytelling perspective there's no reason for Miura to go through each single important memory of Casca or show each single adversity Schierke and Farnese are overcoming. I think he's showing a lot actually, we've seen many different designs and the enveroinment itself has changed. If we spend whole episodes going through how Schierke and Farnese defeat hairballs, bats, spiders, giant penises and their variations, it'd be quite boring.

The most important stuff is yet to come.