Beast: Personification of Sin

I was thinking about the chapters where the evil spirits like the beast posess creatures in vol 17. Originally rape, and having sex before marrige with one or more person were sins in the bible right? Of course to commit genocide would be breaking the commandments. It would seem to me that the beast and the spirits like the beast more or less take out the Sinful side of a person which I guess only in battle leads to merciless genocide. I mean there was the rape of caska, the horse trying to rape farnese, fanese trying to seduce guts with the dragonslayer and thats just off of the top of my head. Could it be that the beast personifies Sin in the world of berserk and that theres alot more biblical tie in's than usually mentioned? or am I just delusional?

I like how berserk kind of draws an obscured line between good & evil.

Take what griffith said to guts after the zodd encounter.. about beasts like that proving there's a god, then guts saying 'or a devil'. To which Griffith replies.. 'they're probably the same thing.'

Could be a bad translation, but I think that idea is probably the best take on evil/good in the world of berserk.

If I had to choose any tie ins it would have to be the general idea of purity vs corruption, over 'good vs. evil'

Well thats what the beast is. The beast is supposed to represent everything bad about guts, and nothing can get badder then guts. Vengence, lust, desire, hatred... all of these have a strong grip on guts.

The beast is kinda close to wyld, dont you think?

DemonX said:

Well thats what the beast is. The beast is supposed to represent everything bad about guts, and nothing can get badder then guts. Vengence, lust, desire, hatred... all of these have a strong grip on guts.

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It seems so but not just guts, it also affected the horse and farnese. I'm prolly leaving out alot of others.

The beast is kinda close to wyld, dont you think?

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Yes, but then again I bet alot of generals were scumbags who got rowdy, even though it appears all of the Midland generals in the golden age arc seem very dignified.

Demented Swordsman said:

If I had to choose any tie ins it would have to be the general idea of purity vs corruption, over 'good vs. evil'

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Last time I checked Sin was impurity and not pure evil.

Eddie said:

It seems so but not just guts, it also affected the horse and farnese.

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Ok now your confusing me now. Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't the horse and farnese possesed? I dont recall guts ever being possesed...

DemonX said:

Ok now your confusing me now. Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't the horse and farnese possesed? I dont recall guts ever being possesed...

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But when the beast takes control of Guts he's bieng posessed by the beast is he not?

Yeah the beast posesses Guts. But at the same time it's not. If the beast is everything bad about Guts then it's his dark side. So when the beast takes hold of him Guts is just giving into his dark side. I guess it can be argued either way.

Last time I checked Sin was impurity and not pure evil.

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Check again. ;) Impurity=corruption, corruption does not equal pure evil.

Actually, I was talking about the themes that your topic kind of made me think of.

More on-topic, Wyald was, after all, an apostle.

Biblically, sin is viewed as something no man can escape, yet every man must try to avoid & repent for it. I can see how it is tied in with the other-worldly creatures & their desire to possess those by up-rooting their own personal demons(farnese for example)

Could it be that the beast personifies Sin in the world of berserk

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That very well could be, if sin in berserk is viewed as a lust for perversion & pure bloodshed(which I think it is.. think corruption) After all, it was Guts' own desires that made the beast out of the darkness.

DemonX said:

The beast is supposed to represent everything bad about guts

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True... speculating, and please guys correct me if I am wrong... but, I allways saw the "beast" to be some kind of sign of insanity for Guts. His own emotions and thirst for revenge betraying his own mind???... And specially now since Guts is in a bad condition...

I'm not very religious at all but it's kinda like the devil and Jesus with the whole last temptation thing. The beast is trying to corrupt Guts.

Eddie said:

I was thinking about the chapters where the evil spirits like the beast posess creatures in vol 17. Originally rape, and having sex before marrige with one or more person were sins in the bible right? Of course to commit genocide would be breaking the commandments. It would seem to me that the beast and the spirits like the beast more or less take out the Sinful side of a person which I guess only in battle leads to merciless genocide. I mean there was the rape of caska, the horse trying to rape farnese, fanese trying to seduce guts with the dragonslayer and thats just off of the top of my head. Could it be that the beast personifies Sin in the world of berserk and that theres alot more biblical tie in's than usually mentioned? or am I just delusional?

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So Guts would then be the oposing virtue? Lets try this and see if they match up?

Pride vs. Humility
-Yeah I Guts is pretty humble guy

+1

Avarice/Greed vs. Generosity
- Guts seems to be fairly generous, he doesn't kill EVERYONE he encounters, thats generous of him LOL

+1

Envy vs. Love
- Yeah well Guts does have this one in the bag, after all the pain and angiush he's endured for Caska his love is not in doubt.

+1

Wrath/Anger vs. Kindness
- Well minus one for Guts, as he has a tiny anger problem.

-1

Lust vs. Self Limitation
- Ooh this ones kinda hard and open to interpretation, he did almost try and rape Caska BUT at this point you get into the question of whether or not the Beast is Guts, or something... else. Still the Beast is part of him so no go on this one.

-1

Gluttony vs. Faith/Temperance
- Yeah I'll give it to Guts, after all the changes he's gone through as the Black swordsman (given at the beging he wasn't exactly the embodiment of "temperance"). Besides he's sure as hell no glutton (unless you count punishment)

+1

Sloth vs. Zeal
- Yeah Guts gets this one too, he's sure "zealous" about some things.

+1

Final Score:

Virtues: +5

Sins: -2

GUTS WINS!

Minus one more for sympathy--- he has none hehe.

DemonX said:

Minus one more for sympathy--- he has none hehe.

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Sure he does, why do you think he kept farnese alive in vol 17?

DemonX said:

Minus one more for sympathy--- he has none hehe.

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I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Guts does have sympathy for others but he doesn't like to show it. He protected Jill from all the demons that were chasing him around and saved her from making the bad decision of following him. He tried not to show that compassionate side of him by scaring her away by showing her his dark side, but he shields her in his cloak at the last minute before the demons can do anything to her. He was acting with her best interests in mind, though the method may not have been very friendly.

Regarding the topic about sin and Guts; I think that everyone in the Berserk world has some sin represented in them. It's only the ones that represent certain sins to the extreme that I think are prevalent (i.e. Gennon's lust for underage boys). I think those people are the fixtures that are more easily used by causality. Gennon played an important role in help building Griffith's army financially. Without him, the Band of the Hawks wouldn't have risen to such great heights as fast as they did. Also, Gennon turned out to be the one who cost Tudor that one crucial battle because of his lust for Griffith. One could argue that the King of Midland's lust for his daughter and envy of Griffith caused him to give Griffith such a horrible punishment degrading him so much that when the eclipse came around and the Godhand offered him the choice of being a god for the death of all his men, it was practially irresistable.

Any of the apostles could be seen having some extremity of a sin that lead them to the path of serving the Godhand. The Snail Count gave into his wraith when he learned of his wife's "extracurricular activies." Wyld has his lust as well as any of Slann's followers. Gluttony could also be seen as a huge sin among the apostles for their desire to have things in excess, such as sex, food, and death.

The average person in the Berserk world typically don't have any sins that are in one extreme or another. Guts doesn't really display any of the extremes of the seven deadly sins. Wraith is the only sin that I see him really having excess of and even that is something that he's trying to control by keeping the Beast at bay.

But those are just my thoughts on the situation. Comment away.

in my opinion,

if you are looking for the personification of sin,

look no further than griffith,

he pretends to love, only to hate,

he sacrifices others for himself,

there are so many examples im not gonna write 80 lines to explain,

but it just seems to me he is just that,

griffith = sin,

he is like a satan, a beautiful creation

that thinks he can rule the world,

the master of sin,

hmmmm, that kinda goes over into the anti christ thread,

but that equals sin too i guess,

just my thoughts ;D

- c

10-4 said:

in my opinion,



he pretends to love, only to hate

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he had feelings for Guts...even with his "reborned" body...

Most of Guts asshole-ishness is simply a defense mechanism. The guy's been burned so many times in relationships it's a wonder he let's anyone be around him.

The Beast is simply another defense mechanism. It lets Guts say to himself "I didn't do all those horrible things. The Beast did." It had to be constructed for Guts to let himself have friendly interactions again.

quite interesting woland,

i never thought of it like that before,

if that was the case,

would that mean if guts thought about it and

admitted that he was the one responsible for all the things he has done and find a way to excercise self control,

that would be quite interesting,

hmmmmmmm ;D

- c

Guts definately has a soft spot in his heart. Look what happened when he killed the boy during the assasination. He definately felt like shit after he did it.

he felt bad? yes :-\

would he have done it again? yes ;D

there would have been no way for the boy to see him and guts not get caught,

he knew it was wrong but did it anyways,

the beast wasnt really active yet, i think that was just a extra feature of the story,

but if you get to the base of why he killed the boy, it was griffith,

hes still the best personification of sin in the story to me,

maybe not the only one, but the best :)

- c

Of course he would do it again. Its is duty. Now would he do it for no reason? I dont think so. They guy doesn't kill for the joy of killing. It what he is good at, but I dont see him enjoying killing kids.

10-4 said:

he felt bad? yes :-\

would he have done it again? yes ;D

there would have been no way for the boy to see him and guts not get caught,

he knew it was wrong but did it anyways,

the beast wasnt really active yet, i think that was just a extra feature of the story,

but if you get to the base of why he killed the boy, it was griffith,

hes still the best personification of sin in the story to me,

maybe not the only one, but the best :)

- c

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If I recall that scene correctly, Guts didn't even know that he was going to kill the boy until it was already too late. All Guts knew was that he just assasinated Yurius and someone saw him. Reacting on instincts and orders, he killed the person who entered Yurius's chambers only to discover too late that he killed Yurius's son. Earlier when Guts was hiding above the rooftops watching Yurius and his son spar, the scene reminded him of his childhood with Gambino. I think the child reminded Guts of himself when he was younger and killing the child really affected him. I don't think that if Guts would have killed the kid again in a heartbeat if he knew that it was a kid, but if he were to spare the child's life, I'm sure that Griffith would have eventually ordered Guts to assasinate the child since he was the son of Yurius and a potential suitor to Princess Charolette.

:'(

i think he would have killed him anyways,

oh well, all is fair in love and war, and sk posting ;)

well miyu, what do you think about griffith and the personification of sin? ;D

just curious

- c

10-4 said:

well miyu, what do you think about griffith and the personification of sin? ;D

just curious

- c

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That I can definitely see for Griffith. He has pride, vanity, lust, greed, wraith. I see all the deadly sins rolled into Griffith in some way, shape, or form. I think most people can agree with the the statement that Griffith embodies sin and its many forms. I wouldn't go as far as to say he's the total embodiment of sin, but as far as Griffith is concerned, he's pretty damn close.

Griff, is definately the personification of Sin. All wrapped into one body