Author Topic: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures  (Read 9709 times)

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Offline Griffith

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Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« on: February 14, 2005, 12:00:08 AM »
Following up on some of the ideas expressed in this thread I decided to look for visual parallels between Guts and Griffith and their demonic counterparts. Obviously, there's many more examples of them exhibiting behavior foreshading their dark sides, but I focused on putting the most pertinant examples together. Keep in mind, although it looks compelling as presented, many of these pictures are out of order and context, especially Guts' pictures in relation to Griffith's. Mind you, the simularties aren't a coincidence, either.



             

             

             

             



             

             
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2005, 04:53:00 AM »
Whoa, thanks "Griffith" for pointing those out.  I don't think they're a coincidence either :o.

Offline KuraiDragoon

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 07:28:18 AM »
Ahhh those pictures gave me chills.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 05:32:11 PM »
It's like a BERSERK highlights edition. And I don't mean the children's magazine.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2005, 05:45:12 PM »
Wow.  This is just plain cool.  Nice selection, Griff.

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 06:30:59 PM »
I'd have to agree with you on the idea that this is no cooincidence.  I remember Casca complaining before how Guts was just like Griffith and how they would just cast someone they care for aside to acheive a dream.  Guts proves that he would do that first when he left the Hawks, then 2ndly when he left Casca at the fairy home at Godo's.  The difference is that Guts now ha come back and even allowed his revenge to be set on a temporary hold as they look for a new safe place for Casca (Elf Hell).

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2005, 09:08:21 PM »
Very cool Griff, nicely put. :)

I remember Casca complaining before how Guts was just like Griffith and how they would just cast someone they care for aside to acheive a dream.  Guts proves that he would do that first when he left the Hawks

It doesn't have much to do with the Femto (the "Wings of Darkness")/Beast of Darkness parallel. Besides, it's not really like that, Casca says so to Guts when he tells her he won't stay with the Hawks after Griffith is rescued, and it's after he left for the first time, it makes a difference since she's referring to that precise event. Also, he replies by asking her to come with him, the thing he couldn't get himself to do the first time he left, though Judo told him to.

Guts now ha come back and even allowed his revenge to be set on a temporary hold as they look for a new safe place for Casca

It isn't so. Guts isn't looking for a safe place to let Casca rot in. Remember: "Never again!"


Offline waqas

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2005, 10:36:03 PM »
Excellent post. It does a great job of summarising the parallels between Griffith and Guts' psyches up to this point in time. What I found most interesting were the pictures that relate to each man's relationship with Casca.

The images of Griffith actually raping Casca and of Guts almost(?) raping her seem, on the surface, to be about each man's relationship to her, and on one level they are. But in a more significant way it is also about their relationship with each other. While the images with Casca show the similarities between Guts and Griffith's alter ego's, when you put them back into context they also show the power struggle that is taking place between the two. Casca is merely one battlefield in this continuing struggle that has been taking place for a long time.

Rape often has more to do with power than it does sex. Two events took Griffith's power from him. Guts defeating him in a duel (and then subsequently leaving him), and the year Griffith spent being tortured. The first took his pride and his confidence, while the second took his material assets, i.e. his status in the world and his body. Griffith blamed Guts for the loss of his dream, and the fact that he then took Casca too (whom Giffith felt also belonged to him) must have been a double blow.

Now, when Griffith raped Casca he was not only displaying his power over her, but over Guts too. He was basically saying "Look what I can do to your girl" while Guts lay there helpless. He was, in effect, taking his power back from Guts and re-asserting his dominance over his (former) comrade. Of course the rape wasn't all Griffith, his new demonic nature took the step that he may never have taken, but there is no doubting that Griffith desired to get back at Guts and take back what he felt was rightfully his.

Now lets look at the relationhip from Guts' perspective. Ever since Griffith's speech about how a friend is someone who is "equal" to him, Guts has carried around a feeling of inferiority towards his best friend. Up until this point, I think that Guts felt the two were equals, or "comrades in arms" (despite the fact that Griffith outranked Guts). But Griffiths words shattered that illusion. Guts desire to pursue his own dream was initiated by his desire to earn the respect of his friend and reclaim his lost pride, which Griffith had unknowingly taken away. I think it's fair to say that Guts never felt the same way about Griffith again, and that the struggle between them began at that moment.

After the eclipse, Guts was in the position Griffith was in during his year in torture. Guts was the one who had lost everything, his friends (though he had abandoned them once anyway), his love, and his pride. And now, obviously, he wants to get back on level terms. Guts' "revenge" is more about his own hurt pride than avenging the Hawks or what was done to Casca. Which makes our hero seem more immature than we, as the audience would like him to be, but I think thats the reality of the situation.

Now, perhaps the most interesting point is that, as Griff pointed out with his pic, Guts was emulating Griffith when he (almost) raped Casca. On the surface, this was caused by his feelings of anger, frustration and pain from what he had gone through over the past three years. But I feel that subconsciously, this was another round of the struggle between Griffith and himself. Remember, when Griffith raped Casca, he was, in a manner of speaking, taking her from Guts. To Guts, it wasn't so much the fact that he had lost Casca, but that Griffith had taken his girl, his possession. Griffith had taken something from him - and he was going to take it back. It had nothing to do with his frustrations, pain or love for Casca, but his need to get even with Griffith.

But what about Casca? Well sadly for her, she, as I mentioned earlier is just another factor in their continual struggle. She could quite easily be replaced by something else, but we all know that a woman caught between two men makes for a great plot device! ;D. When I first came to the conclusion that Casca's place was merely as an object in a struggle between two other people my empathy for her grew ten fold. I mean, it's bad enough being raped by the two men you love, but it wasn't even about her, it was about them getting back at each other. I'm sure (well I hope) there is a bright ending for Casca, but I think she needs to first free herself emotionally from the two men she loves, and live for herself.

Well that was a long rant! Sorry for going off on a tangent, and I suspect that many of you have already come to some similar conclusions, but for some reason the pics posted by Griff gave me the sudden urge to write some of my own thoughts down. At the very least it gave me something to chew over for a while. ;D

Offline Tristram

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2005, 04:16:28 AM »
It isn't so. Guts isn't looking for a safe place to let Casca rot in. Remember: "Never again!"

I dont think she'd feel very imprisoned on an entire fairy island :P

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2005, 04:48:15 AM »
Very nicely presented, "Griffith No More!", and an excellent post by waqas.  I've also noticed the power struggle between Guts and Griffith and how Femto and Guts "Beast of Darkness" are parallels of their own dark desires.

  The only thing that truly separates them is that Griffith gave in completely to his dark desires to pursue his ambition, while Guts has been in a constant battle with his "Beast" since the Eclipse.  Also Guts has real feelings for Casca (though the "Beast" would like him to believe otherwise), While Griffith saw her as just an important possession to help him in his ambition, only to "reclaim" in the Eclipse after she became closer to Guts.

Offline Rayne

Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2005, 11:07:59 PM »
who would ever think so much could happen to both the protagonist and antagonist

oh well, that's why it's great  ;D
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Offline Woland

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2005, 12:49:41 AM »
Also Guts has real feelings for Casca (though the "Beast" would like him to believe otherwise), While Griffith saw her as just an important possession to help him in his ambition, only to "reclaim" in the Eclipse after she became closer to Guts.

Never take what Griffith says about his own feelings at face value.
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Offline Sparnage

Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2005, 05:54:33 AM »
Interesting thread, I never really gave much thought on most of that but the similarities certainly can't be denied.
It seems like In all those cases Griffith made the choice to be evil in all of them, where as Guts can't help but be controlled by his darker side he tries ever so hard to keep under control but fails. When Griffith chose to be a demon Guts tries ever so hard to fight his inner evil, in or out of the Berserker armour. When Griffith chose to rape Casca for his own selfish reasons (as Waqas states), Guts tries ever so hard to fight the urges off, even when they get the best of him he still fights against it.
IMO this is one of the reasons why Guts is the Protagonist and why Griffith is the Antagonist.

Waqas, though I agree with you on almost all of that post, it's a huge assumption to say he is doing it more for his own pride than for the Hawks. This is one of the other things that makes Guts the Protagonist to me, he isn't so much like Griffith that he doesn't think about those who play a significant role in his life.

Guts had so much more reason to be disconnected or feel nothing for the comrads who he went to war with so many times than Griffith, he had already been through betrayal and suffering along with more or less living much more of a dark life Griffith never saw, he was always around people who loved and admired him yet could still betray them so badly.

Though he could have been unconsciously proving something to Griffith by secretly wanting to force himself onto Casca, he still cares about her in a way Griffith never understood and he still tries to fight against his selfish and unethical desires.
Also alot of what caused Guts to force himself onto Casca was the fact that she is more a being that resembled someone who she once was, even when she was close by him it would be very hard for Guts to see her the way she is. She has made life very hard for Guts to try and protect her on more than one occasion, she simply can't understand him, nor provide him with the physical contact he undoubtedly desires so much.

I don't think he would have ever done what he did if she was the way she once was, he almost lost control the first time they made love true, but I think after that day in the forest before saving Griffith, Guts really overcame something with the help of Casca. Now Guts is essentially back to stage one after the trauma of the Eclipse on top of dealing with Casca the way she is making it ever harder to fight his inner demon.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2005, 08:56:12 AM »
That was an oldskool Guts/Griff compare & contrast post; I'm intrigued. Although I must point out that Griffith did his own inner demon wrestling, and was ultimately convinced by four God Hand, The Idea, and the words of Guts' himself.


Guts obviously regrets the awful things that he's done, but it's never stopped him before. He hasn't been a passive a participant in his path to Hell. I don't think he resists so much as he feels bad after the fact. Though he always has good intentions (avenging his friends, Casca, etc.), it's usually a cover for his own selfish desires, and a means by which he continues to hurt people and perpetuate his problems.

THAT'S why he's the protagonist. ;D
-Griffith

Offline Tristram

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2005, 04:40:08 AM »
http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/Transgriff00.jpg

Wait...  how did I miss this?  Is this directly from a page of the comic?  What the hell are Ubek and Conrad doing sitting on top of eachother, dressed as an old woman?  What Volume/Chapter is that from?  I can't beleive I missed it...

What the hell is wrong with them!?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2005, 08:17:50 AM »
Wait...  how did I miss this?  Is this directly from a page of the comic?

During the Occultation, Ubik showed Griffith his "past" in the form of an introspection (volume 12, episode 77: The Castle). This scene among others shows us that what Griffith sees then is far from being the objective truth (i.e. he is manipulated in a way that would reinforce his will to sacrifice the Hawks, in order to achieve his dream).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 09:14:59 AM by Aazealh »

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2005, 08:54:38 AM »
During the Occultation, Ubik showed Griffith his "past" in the form of an introspection (volume 13). This scene among others shows us that what Griffith sees then is far from being the objective truth (i.e. he is manipulated in a way that would reinforce his will to sacrifice the Hawks, in order to achieve his dream).

What the hell? I've never seen that page either. ???

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2005, 03:15:02 PM »
If you've seen volume 12, I'm sure you've seen it before, but you probably don't remember. That's the only panel we see them "break character" during the scene, the rest of the time, and from Griffith's perspective, it's just the old woman berating him.
-Griffith

Offline Tristram

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2005, 03:42:19 PM »
During the Occultation, Ubik showed Griffith his "past" in the form of an introspection (volume 12, episode 77: The Castle). This scene among others shows us that what Griffith sees then is far from being the objective truth (i.e. he is manipulated in a way that would reinforce his will to sacrifice the Hawks, in order to achieve his dream).
Thanks.

If you've seen volume 12, I'm sure you've seen it before, but you probably don't remember. That's the only panel we see them "break character" during the scene, the rest of the time, and from Griffith's perspective, it's just the old woman berating him.
Either way, that seems rather "Bug Bunny" of the Godhand.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2005, 07:05:19 PM »
Either way, that seems rather "Bug Bunny" of the Godhand.

That's "Bugs Bunny."
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Offline trapped_soul

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2005, 04:22:35 AM »
Great hypothesis, Griff.

Reading this also brought to my mind this thread, which was created years ago:
http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=475.0

watch the argueing between Griffith and Fishbomb on this matter - it's legendary.

-TS

« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 04:29:47 AM by trapped_soul »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2005, 06:00:48 AM »
Great hypothesis, Griff.

Reading this also brought to my mind this thread, which was created years ago:
http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=475.0

watch the argueing between Griffith and Fishbomb on this matter - it's legendary.

-TS

Sorry, but you're confused, it looks like it was Vampire Hunter Bob doing all that useless arguing. I'm too cool for that kinda stuff. =)
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Offline trapped_soul

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2005, 06:47:12 AM »
Sorry, but you're confused, it looks like it was Vampire Hunter Bob doing all that useless arguing. I'm too cool for that kinda stuff. =)

yeh yeh. i know ^^;

-TS

P.S. Are you cool man.  8)

Offline TheSkyTraveller

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Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2005, 02:22:39 PM »
Great hypothesis, Griff.

Reading this also brought to my mind this thread, which was created years ago:
http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=475.0

watch the argueing between Griffith and Fishbomb on this matter - it's legendary.

-TS



I miss Fishbomb's posts.  This whole topic, including the old posts linked here, is really interesting.  It's why I come here.  I like reading other member's posts on this stuff.  Me posting, not so much.  I'm never so eloquent.  :P
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Offline Un_Colombiano

Re: Guts/Beast, Griffith/Femto Parallels in Pictures
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2005, 09:34:28 PM »
??? What episode is that picture where Guts' beast is sexing up Casca from? I don't remember that...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 07:16:35 AM by Aazealh »